Courtesy of John Neumann
Fire in the wilderness areas continue to move slowly as it moves downhill. Here, the fire is spreading down into the Sisquoc drainage in the Big Pine Canyon area.
Major Fire Battle Looms This Weekend
Next Few Days Will be Critical in Stopping Zaca Fire Advance
Thursday, August 9, 2007
While the Zaca Fire continues to smolder in Buckhorn Canyon, fire fighters have had an additional two or three days to button up the southwest sections of the fire line, complete burn outs there and build additional containment line.
“We really needed those days to get ready for when the fire in Buckhorn Canyon heats up,” John Estes, a Section Operation Chief for the Type 1 National Interagency Management Team explained. “There really aren’t any easy points we can work from once the fire starts moving down towards Mono Creek.”
Forest Service Map
Shows southeastern part of the fire area that could reach Santa Barbara. The map includes the area near Camuesa Ridge where efforts will be made to turn the fire as well as the 12 and 24 hour lines should it continue south towards town.
View Large Map
Pointing to the operations map taped to the outside of the trailer that operations uses to plan strategy, he added, “It’s a hodge podge of ridges that go in every direction, lots of places for the fire to move. We’ve got to fight it ridge by ridge.
Currently hot shots are busy working at clearing brush just south of the fire line along a jeepway known as Camuesa Road. Firefighters hope to use the Camuesa Ridge, immediately south of the jeepway, as an anchor they can use to turn the fire. If successful, the hope is the fire will start a more pronounced eastward movement down the jeepway into Indian Creek and begin turning back to the north so it heads up Indian and Mono Canyons.
“It won’t be easy,” Estes added. “If the fire reaches the point where Indian and Mono Creeks join, it could just as easily continue downstream as up. The difference may be what the winds are like at the time.”
More may be known after today’s fire activity. Once the fire reached the bottom of the Buckhorn drainage, it began the uphill run to the south that worried fire command, but it also began to hook upward to the north as well as to the east where it is nearing the Pie Canyon jeepway that marks the western edge of the Dick Smith Wilderness. With favorable wind flows the fire could actually redirect itself.
If not, and the fire moves out of Buckhorn Canyon to the south, the fire line will be moving directly down into the Camuesa Creek drainage where the hot shots are hard at work. Immediately south of that is Camuesa Ridge, roughly set as the twenty-four hour trigger.
Wilderness Fire Lines Unstaffed
On the northern and eastern parts of the fire lines, the fire continues to burn unchecked. More than 25 miles of uncontained fire line remain along the upper parts of Buckhorn Road and along the upper Sisquoc but as in Buckhorn Canyon, the fire is moving slowly. This will change as the flames hit canyon bottoms and begin uphill runs.
Forest Service Map
Shows fire progression on the northeastern part of the fire line that threatens both the Sisquoc and Alamar drainages.
An example of the type of area in which the fire is burning is the section of Big Pine Canyon shown below. Though it is burning slowly, there is almost no way hot shot crews can be positioned safely in this area, almost no way they can clear wide enough spaces to prevent blow overs and no positions from which they can work with air attack to anchor a point and turn the fire.
Fire in the wilderness areas continue to move slowly as it moves downhill. Here, the fire is spreading down into the Sisquoc drainage in the Big Pine Canyon area.
Comments
We don't need to wait for the Pacific Ocean to stop this fire; get 100 airplanes that can land on water and load water and put this fire out. Why not?
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Goleta Resident, I don't think you're quite understanding the magnitude of this fire. If the fire line were stretched out in a straight line it would run from Goleta to Oxnard!
Even if you had a flying saucer capable of sucking all the water out of Lake Casitas and dumping on said fire, you *might* put out 10-15% of the current fire line. That's only if the majority of that water doesn't flash boil from being dispersed from altitude on 200' plus high flames!
This fire has taken on a life of it's own at this point and is more a force of nature than a little forest fire. It's gonna take a number of good chess moves by the firemen and a good prayer for that Santa Ana wind to stay away.
kcox920 (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Very well - because of the magnitude of the fire, thinking on a different level might be useful. Instead of 'ants crawling in D8 Bulldozers' a different approach might be needed. The Pacific Ocean provides enough water to put out this fire (or any fire in CA).
Do we not have 100 airplanes that can do the job? If so, why not?
I appreciate all of the hard work of our firefighters, but some help from the AirForce might be useful.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe the P2 Neptune or P3 Orions are the largest fixed-wing aircraft available for air attack? I recall awhile ago there was a proposal to use converted 747's for the job. The outfit was called Evergreen International. The idea of a 747 flying near stall speed down low in a windy canyon is interesting.
Kudos to the hand crews out there fighting the fire front. Unless you're walking on a firebreak or an OHV road, moving around in all that scrub oak and manzanita would seem very difficult. Let's hope the break running to Camuesa Peak holds.
EastBeach (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Looking out of Goleta at the hills right now - seeing white-brownish smoke. There are no airplanes flying from the ocean fighting this fire; Why Not?
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 4:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
GoletaResident, you can't tell me that with three command centers, over 2,400 people, 70 crews, 18 bulldozers, LA County Fire, Ventura County Fire, SB County Fire, CalFire CDF and USFS all working on the fire that someone's forgotten the Pacific Ocean as a source of water!
Go dust off your car and bake some cookies for those folks over at the command center.
Bargs (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, that's right. They possibly can not have 'forgotten' about what makes common sense to all of us - or did they? The other day a father of a 10-year old told us that looking at a helicopter fighting the fire seemed out of all proportions to the size of the fire. Now one article online qouted a firefighter that the helicopter attempts where like 'spitting in the wind'. I still don't see airplanes from the Goleta Airport flying towards the fire; they used to on smaller fires.
Of course, we do believe that our firefighters know what they are doing.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If I may share my past experience with you, GoletaResident--
Planes and helicopters are somewhat helpful in fighting fires in southern California, but the significant results come from the efforts of the 'dozers and the hand and engine crews, especially with large area fires.
We're talking about 1000s of acres of fuel, and the "spitting into the wind" analogy holds with respect to our airborne fire-fighting forces--useful tools perhaps, but only meaningful when dealing with spotting and ground support.
--virtual buffalo crew
biff_arden (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 4:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe the Air Force can shoot some water missiles at it... or perhaps they have some kind of laser guided atomic-retardant bomb?
I think that dozers creating firebreaks and the setting of backfires to control the perimeter is what will make a bigger difference in the end.
robert (Robert LeBlanc)
August 9, 2007 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well...it seems that due to 'luck of wind' we are safe (for now). Still, personally I do not see why using airplanes to water down the areas that have not yet burned (similar to using fire retardant) , placing this water onto the areas that the water is heading to , would be a good strategy.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 5:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe if you personally paid for one of these planes you'd feel better. I hear they run upward of $20,000 per hour to operate. Or perhaps a hang glider and a bucket might better suit your budget!
robert (Robert LeBlanc)
August 9, 2007 at 5:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok - I've operated a D8 Bulldozer myself. We are talking about a 'battle' right here, and the way 'batltles' or 'wars' were won in the past was using superior technology. Let's use available technology to put this fire out. This is not the 1920's where we need to watch city's burn down in CA (or worry about possible 'evacuations')
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 5:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
GoletaResident,
Perhaps it would clear up some confusion to let you know they moved the Air Attack Base from Santa Barbara Airport to Santa Maria Airport a few years ago. So we know longer see the hubub of activity at SBA with the big bombers coming to refuel. They now refuel from Santa Maria with both water and fire retardant which is designed to work better then water, but unfortunately cannot be scooped up from the Pacific Ocean.
pope (Paul Costales)
August 9, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hmm...that is good information. We've only been living here for the past 7 years and seen firefiighting planes occasionally flying over Goleta but not now. I still wonder if the right approach is being used for this level of emergency.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just put this fire out right now - whatever it takes.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Through the looking glas...seeing reality...
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm a 43 year local who grew up at the foothills near Lake Los Canaros and watched many fire fights from my front yard as a kid. I was also at Knapp's Castle when the smaller Paradise road fire broke out about the same time this one was starting so far away. Watching that fire from the start was an education, to say the least.
One thing that was immediately apparent is that the helicopters have plenty of water to chose from out there without taking the time and fuel to go to the ocean. The other thing was that incredibly harsh terrain prohibited just about anything but brute, manual force. The hills are steep. Bull-dozers can't get everywhere. The Air attack was effective on that small fire, but this is a different story. Anyone who has ever done any hiking in that area knows how grueling it can be in cool shorts and a light pack. I can't imagine what those firefighters are going through and the effort they are giving, but I do know they know a lot more about how to do it that most who have posted here.
I think we should all give a high five if not more to any firefighter or volunteer we see. KTYD is putting a big community " thank you" together for them, so keep an ear open and give the crew the support they deserve.
Eric
ericallen (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes - and they need some AirForce to help fighting this monster, don't they?
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Perhaps you should read the Authors Note at the beginning of this thread.
ericallen (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ray, your additional comments regarding the air attack are spot on. In addition, for anyone still frustrated about an apparent lack of air attack, it may help if you take a look at the area the fire is currently active in with Google Earth (and use the tool for tilting the terrain). You'll see that the area is terrifically rugged, with many canyons. Flying helicopters in those areas is dangerous enough...flying airplanes even more so.
barbara (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok - we are 'safe'. No need to 'think'. Good.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am 44 years old and am kind of happy about the repliies towards this interestihng topic.
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 6:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For those who might be interested, here is a collection of interpretive writing on all our local fires going back to the 1955 Refugio fire and beyond:
http://www.sb-outdoors.org/Interpretive/
Sadly, the Zaca fire will need to be added to the list. Judging from the prologue, the author appears to be Ray Ford.
EastBeach (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 7 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Whatever - do it!!
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Watch this video... it doesn't look easy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJYUMu...
robert (Robert LeBlanc)
August 9, 2007 at 7:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hi all,
this just out from the firefighters. there's a meeting in Ojai tomorrow night to alert that community to the Zaca Fire and inform them of possible scenarios in the days and weeks to come. here's the full press release:
Public Service Announcement
For Immediate Release
On Friday, August 10, 2007, at 7:00 pm, Zaca Fire Officials will be hosting a community meeting in the City of Ojai, CA. The meeting will be held at the Matilija Junior High School, 703 El Paseo, Ojai, CA.
The purpose of the meeting will be to provide members of the community with information regarding the management and suppression efforts firefighters are using on the Zaca Fire.
Representatives from the California Interagency Incident Management Team 5, Los Padres National Forest, Ventura County Fire, Sheriff, and Animal Control, and the California Highway Patrol will be on-hand to answer questions the public may have concerning the fire. Community members are encouraged to attend and participate in the meeting.
Additionally, Public Information Officers will be on-hand to assist the media during the meeting. For additional information, please contact the Zaca Fire Information Call Center at (805) 961-5770 or visit the following fire information websites www.inciweb.org or www.sbcfire.com
Matt (Matt Kettmann)
August 9, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Per Barbara's comment ... a friend sent me this Google Maps link which is being updated to show the extent of the fire.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF...
If you like using Google Earth like I do, use the icon on the upper right to generate a .KML file which you can load into Google Earth.
The link appears to be updated daily by someone named Patrick Windmiller ... does anyone know who he is? Perhaps someone associated with one of the agencies?
EastBeach (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 8:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This fire shows us just how limited fire fighting aircraft are in number and usefulness. Aircraft fitted to fight fires or built to carry water or "scoop" water probably number in the 20s to 30s NATIONWIDE. The large number of converted WW2 bombers and P3 ORIONS used have had many structural problems and crashes and were for a while grounded following these crashes. Last I heard they are still grounded. These water scooping planes built in Canada by Bombardere are expensive and the public has had a distaste of paying higher taxes over the past several years. There are no Water tanker Military, Private or other aircraft to make up the 100 Aircraft to fight this fire as suggested by one contributor. The pacific Ocean will remain in the pacific ocean and unavailable to fight this fire. Best of luck to us all.
GoletaResident2 (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 10:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am pleased to know that there are professionals on the job who are trained to 'think' about this type of situation and that they are doing their best to protect resources, both man-made and otherwise.
Here's the County Fire Chief giving a video briefing:
http://sbcounty.granicus.com/MediaPla...
I'm glad to see that the County is becoming aware of the Internet as a means by which to disseminate important information at a time like this. It's reassuring for me to see a man in a uniform pointing at a map - helps me to believe that my taxes are paying for something worthwhile.
I am also glad to see how involved Mr. Ray Ford has been in providing expert coverage of this fire. I have used Mr. Ford's publications when exploring our front country trails as well as the wilderness, and I can think of no better mediator between the 'official story' and what the reality is in the backcountry canyons. When the Indy Local Heroes ballots appear, mine will have his name on it.
Bargs (anonymous profile)
August 9, 2007 at 10:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bargs said:
"When the Indy Local Heroes ballots appear, mine will have his name on it."
Funny you should mention that; here's the link to the ballot:
http://www.independent.com/local_heroes/
--WebAdmin
webadmin (webadmin)
August 9, 2007 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I didn't see anyone else mention this: Ocean water cannot be used to fight forest fires. The salt will kill every plant and poison the soil for thousands of years, creating a desert void of life, and runoff from rain would poison everything downhill and downstream from the drop sites.
SandBar (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 5:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok - that's a reasonable explanation (salt in the ocean water0. So let's 'hope and pray'...
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 6:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
That's a good video from the County Fire Chief. 6 airplanes from Santa Maria...hmmh...'all we got'...
GoletaResident (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 6:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Our HotShot crew is the badest of the bad. They make Barry Bonds look like he's in the minors
http://www.californiahotshotcrews.org...
http://www.californiahotshotcrews.org...
They've made the difference for us, turning back, and fighting this fire.
Thank you!!!!
easternpacific (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 7:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Marty Blum should have a party for these folks :
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/logo...
The primary duty of a hotshot crew is quick, sustained response to suppress wildland fires. This means using a variety of tools including chainsaws, shovels, pulaskis, firing equipment, hoses and pumps. Firefighting involves working under very hazardous conditions for prolonged periods of time. A typical shift on an incident can last 16-32 hours without relief. Hotshots are assigned to the steepest, hottest, and dirtiest part of any fire, which requires excellent physical fitness, positive attitude, good work ethic, and dependability. The gear worn by the crew will weigh at least 40 lbs. and up to 50 lbs. The crew will eat, sleep, travel and perform physical fitness together for the entire fire season.
easternpacific (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Peachtree residents can go home!
This just in from the Forest Service:
The Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department, in conjunction with the Unified Incident Management Team has lifted the "Evacuation Order" for the residents of the Peachtree community, effective on August 10, at 6:00 a.m.
Paradise Road and the Santa Ynez River Recreation Area remain under an EVACUATION ORDER.
The expanded closure of the Los Padres National Forest also remains in effect.
Please contact the Zaca Fire Information Line at 805-961-5770 if you have any questions.
Matt (Matt Kettmann)
August 10, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you Ray, for these excellent articles, they have been one of our most reliable information sources during these difficult days. I have been forwarding them on.
Please stay safe and keep writing.
Julie K
jkummel (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks to the Santa Barbara Independent's staff for the excellent coverage of the Zaca fire. We readers are indeed fortunate to have such a voice of backcountry experience as Ray Ford reporting on this disaster. In addition, I am sure we should be grateful to the entire "web-staff" of the Indy as well - it seems like they are working overtime to get these stories posted.
I also have it on good authority that Biff Arden used to be a hot shot himself.....
ottermama (anonymous profile)
August 10, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)