Tea Fire Cause Is Determined

Unbelievable.

Totally unbelievable. And, totally believable at the same time.

At the height of fire season, this is certainly at the very least, felony stupidity.

Young adults, not teenagers, PURE STUPIDITY, and "daddy" should not fix it for them. They are responsible for ruining lives (and at least 1 death), for turning a paradise into hell. Committing one of the greatest crimes against nature. Negligence is just an excuse for the utter disregard of our blue planet and fellow humans. Put a fire out with water! This is a no fire zone anyway, weren't they aware? People are paying for a lesson unlearned. Is this common, by the way; are they the first group to make fires in such a high alert fire zone or is this craziness practiced by others in the area?

Westmont students... if you read between the lines "between the ages of 18 and 22, area residents" and "described them as all coming from one school". Why did they take so long to come forward? Probably waited for mommy & daddy to hire lawyers! Or didn't come forward but were found out by those that told on them to authorities. I hope that their parents have liability insurance to help with the costs from their grave mistake. I expected that we would hear it was 14-16 year olds or something. Still not okay but more understandable....

Well, we don't know for sure that they are from Westmont... could be SBCC or UCSB. It might not have been clear to them that the bonfire, seemingly put out early in the morning, was the origin of the fire, and if this does go to court, it will probably be darned hard to prove it. Who is to say that one of the 10 didn't go back and make a little fire the next day to recreate the spirit of the previous activity? Or maybe even another friend who missed the first event and recreated it for themselves in the afternoon?

This is a terrible tragedy but don't compound the tragedy by jumping to conclusions.

The moment the fire started I said the following to my wife: "I bet this is because of somebody partying up @ the Tea Gardens!"
Sadly enough, that proved somewhat true. It's the worst feeling being right about the wrong things.
I don't care where they're from, they're responsible adults & will have to face up to the consequences.
The good part is that criminal intent was not the reason, just outright stupidity.
Well, @ least they also got the suspect for the Gap Fire as well.
It won't bring the lost homes or destroyed memories back, but I hope it offers some sort of closure to those affected.
Speaking of nabbed arsonists, did any of ya'll hear about the guy on Mulholland Drive above Leo Carillo trying to start a fire on the side of the road?
Luckily, a passing motorist saw the guy trying to start a fire on the side of the road, called 911 & a sheriff's deputy chased & caught the guy. Just wondering :) henry

I'd be interested to know why their names aren't released, whereas any other suspects' names are released for lesser crimes. What's the diff here? Seems a bit duplicitous.

I know what you mean. But given the sentiments running high right now, maybe the DA felt it was better to keep the names sealed until a further date. But I HIGHLY agree about names thrown out for lesser crimes & the duplicity you feel :) henry

probably didnt realease the names because of fear of retaliation. its one thing to release the name of some guy who beats up his wife last night, but a tradgedy such as this has really angered the ENTIRE community. i'm not saying that the entire community isn't angered by some wife beater, but something of this magnitude requires a bit of protection for those accused. we have a justice system for a reason. obviously, they will announce the names in time, but they will try to wait until people's nerves have calmed down a bit. just look at some of the comments above. there is obviously a lot of hatred towards the people who are responsible for this and I dont blame the community for being very angry. but putting these kids at risk unnecessarily doesn't help anything. they will be made public in due time. although they are likely to never have to pay a dime for this (they dont have any money and their parents are not going to be held responsible for this in any way), they will have to live with this forever. my heart goes out to all who were affected, including the 10 young adults who will never be able to forget the lives they have ruined. may peace be within us all

thank you henry for finding reason in unreasonable times

Sheriff Brown's uses the words "young adults" because he knows that to say "students" automatically leads to the question "Students from what school?" His is a transparent and unimaginitive attempt to protect the school in question.

If charges are filed, then we will now soon enough which school is involved. Perhaps Sheriff Brown uses the words "young adults" because he knows a deal has been done, that charges will not be filed, and that the name of the school will therefore not be made public.

HEY INDY, stop covering for these young idiots. If this story were about any other subject, it would read "students" not "young adults". Clearly the nameless school is running interference behind the scenes to protect its identity. I can see those politics working with law enforcement, but it is ridiculous for the media (including the Independent) to perpetuate this little game by censoring itself. By calling the students "students", you raise the question "students of where?" and the school doesn't get to hide quietly.
RAY, you reported here that the fire was due to carelessness and mention twice that the students thought they had put it out. Who cares?? Again, making excuses for criminally stupid behaivor. No one should be smoking a cigarette in the foothills, let alone having a bonfire. The bonfire is the issue, not how it was extinguished.

Coincidentally, a 16 year old suspect was arrested yesterday for arson causing the Gap Fire. I can accept that there are crazy, dangerous people out there. What angers me far more are 10 dangerous students who ignore common sense and clear warnings because of their priviledge.
Our community should not be providing them with excuses or blowing smoke like sevendolphins does in suggesting defense arguments. Fire officials are forensic scientists who gather precise data. Stop making up fantasies to absolve their guilt. If they went to that bonfire even for 5 minutes, they are to blame.

You seven dolphins and goleta4life are as insane as the arsonists. How dare you walk on eggshells for these spoiled little brats. They damaged millions of dollars, an elderly man died, and smoke infested the paradise we all know and love, and almost lost. It's disgusting the way you pander off your lost values and cater to people (who cares what they're called, students, young adults--that's not the point)---they set A BONFIRE for god's sake A BONFIRE in a HIGH FIRE ALERT area---STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THEM. Maybe your friends. Their names are public information and are posted on the police blotter I'm sure! Just as drug dealers names are posted --public information. If you don't value lives and land, get out of the county. We don't need a**h*les like you around. And anyway, they could always transfer out to "save" their reputations or commit themselves for a "detox."

They haven't been charged with anything, so take it easy. When the charges are filed, if there are charges, then you will hear the names.

As for their parents, they have nothing to do with this, as they are all, apparently, over 17.

Oh, come on and stop defending these people. We don't need guards... we need PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

These "young adults" were reportedly 18-22 years old, way old enough to recognize that they were trespassing on private land. Trespassing and building a fire during FIRE SEASON two months after the tragedy of the GAP fire ALONE are grounds for criminal charges. Add in the fact that this fire caused the loss of hundreds of homes, countless pets and possessions, personal injury and may have contributed to the loss of a human life.

Let's contrast those facts and this scenerio with the POOR WORKERS who allegedly ACCIDENTALLY set off the Zaca fire while AT WORK trying to provide for themselves and their families. What happened to those men?

Hmmmmm.... spoiled, selfish, negligent kids making a BONFIRE IN THE WOODS during FIRE SEASON and the DA has to really, really investigate to see if charges will be filed, compared with manual laborers making a mistake at work where extremely serious charges were filed.

So, if we assume that these kids are culpable for starting the fire and concede that the kids are judgment proof because to date they have no assets, I say let's prosecute them and garnish a percentage of their future wages/inheritance in addition to requiring community service work with schoolchildren about the perils of self-absorption and FIRE.

My gut tells me they're Westmont students... probably the same kids who just voted YES on 8... and who will now ask a liberal community for mercy. Disgraceful!

Incredulous:"My gut tells me they're Westmont students... probably the same kids who just voted YES on 8... and who will now ask a liberal community for mercy. Disgraceful!"
My gut tells me they're just dumb kids that are going to have to face the music, regardless of what they voted for. Leave the politics of the past election out of this, it ain't the place. No insult intended, just let the justice play the way it will :) henry

I don't know about any of you, but when I was 18 I did some incredibly stupid things. No one was ever hurt, but looking back (40 years), that seems like pure luck.

It seems to me that appropriate reparation might be careers for these young people in teaching, health care or public safety.

Let's not pretend here. Never heard of any SBCC or UCSB students having a bonfire up in Montecito/Mission Canyon. Too far to drive let alone walk. The beach maybe. But hardly any SBCC or UCSB students live up there.

All roads point to : WESTMONT.

Hey Hank,

No insult intended, but you wrote basically : "Leave the politics... out of this" -- Why? There was allegedly a group of ~10 students from the same school involved -- why the refusal to disclose the name of the school? That, my friend, is a political decision. Let's gather together and protect our own.

I'm sure if there was a stabbing on State Street by a local gang, the gang would be identified within a day, if not an hour. I could almost guarantee it. So, let's call a spade a spade and not pretend that social issues (and social inequalities) have no impact on the release of information in cases such as these.

I, too, thank those that made the call!

Finally.... No on 8 * * Stop the Hate! Just for you, Hank! ;-)

Man, it would really suck to be one of those "young adults". You go to a party in the mountains, you think you put the bonfire out and think nothing of it, next thing you know half the city's on fire and it's all your fault. On top of all that, everyone in SB wants to kill you!

Yes, what they did was very irresponsible, but they are cooperating with investigators and I'm sure that means they are prepared to face the legal consequences. Nothing more can be done. Calling for their heads on an internet forum won't repair those lost homes.

Those who started the fire deserve our anger. But in two of the responses here I smell something else that's unsettling: an additional dose of anger based on the assumption that these students are children of the rich. It feels as if the authors who mentioned "mommy" and "daddy" are bringing an existing vindictiveness to this already terrible situation, probably resentment for those who have advantages because of their parents' wealth.

The 10 people haven't yet been found guilty in a court of law. We don't know what school they attend. Yes, Westmont seems likely, but we don't know. If it is Westmont, and if some or all of them have well-to-do parents, that's not the point. The point is equality under the law. That's for me, for you, for everyone.

Why make this disaster worse with assumptions that can only divide us at precisely the time when we need to unite to help those who have been hurt? The fire was an equal-opportunity destroyer. It took estates. It took cabins. And recovery will take the compassion and cooperation of people at all economic levels.

Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's focus on seeing that the legal process is followed. Let’s be alert to the tendency to demonize not just the accused, but whatever else we think they represent. Demonizing divides.

Question: If convicted.
Can the victims in a Civil Action, sue the students responsible for damages?
Including all medical claims by folks who have been experiencing upper respiratory damage, infection, mental anguish and the general expenses of the evac?
Could we file a citywide Class Action Civil Suit?

My point is that this fire, in particular is very personal and very morbid.
After all we went through as a community with the Zaca and Gap fires, has the level of awareness gone up?

On Thursday at 7pm on the 13th (the night of the fire)...a woman was going into the Vons on Victoria. She was smoking a cigarette. She dropped the cigarette as she continued up the drive into the store. The cigarette butt rolled downhill and bumped into the curb and flew into the air. It bounced and then landed in the planted side of the curb and onto a pile of dry leaves.
I ran to the planter and stomped out the cigarette butt.

Are people learning from the fires?
Is there any value in these experiences if people do not become more aware of their physical surroundings?

Does it really matter what school they are from? Does it really matter if these "young adults" voted yes or no on 8? I agree with mtndriver..we ALL did stupid things when we were 18 and when you look back on it now..you wonder how you got here! What matters is that we have hundreds of families that have lost their homes, hundreds of animals that have been lost, an elderly gentleman lost his life perhaps due to the fire, perhaps not. WHat is important is that we come together and lift those who need lifting..extend a hand..open a home..open your wallets and open your hearts. These "young adults" who are responsible for this will have their own hell to deal with and will be dealt with accordingly. Who cares where they went to school..who cares how they voted? They were stupid and careless and I am sure feel horrible and will have to live with this for the rest of their lives..and pay the consequences. Lets not get so angry with one another when we really need to pull together and try and help those who have been affected as much as we can. Its one of the many reasons we all live here..because we truly CARE about each other and our community . Be well all.

Not all Westmont students are wealthy. And not all voted Yes on Prop. 8. That said, those responsible should and will have to pay for the damage they've caused.

Emenzies, I saw virtually the same thing today. A man tossed a still-lit cigarette out his window onto the side of the road. It could easily have ignited dry brush.

It's as if these people are just living in their own little bubble of existence.

Yes, these kids are young and are probably incredibly remorseful for what happened. Some might say it could happen to anybody, but that's also the truth for things like drunk driving; it CAN happen to anyone, but that doesn't absolve the responsibility.The stupidity involved doesn't make it okay, especially when others are hurt because of it. The bottom line is that they were doing something that is illegal and quite dangerous. Once can only assume they knew better, but didn't think about it.

(I also highly doubt that if they went up there to party that they were sober enough to know whether or not they put that fire out sufficiently, anyway.)

All that being said, I feel strongly that charges should be filed. The loss of property is one thing. The possibly-related death of that elderly gentleman and the burned residents and firefighters is something I certainly hope will be addressed in the DA's charges.

Thank goodness we've evolved past public lynchings! Such anger and hatred! There is so much tragedy and heartache- yet your negative emotion does nothing but fester further. Take a deep breath, let due process play its course. Try to change all that negative energy toward the positive by doing something to help out. To err is human- to forgive, divine... Certainly they deserve "punishment" but punishment not to avenge but rather teach- so a disaster such as this never happens again.

More to the point - if they don't want to charge these people with criminal arson - surely there are plenty of other charges that can be brought up? Trespassing? Criminal negligence? Manslaughter? Regardless of intent, the fact remains that these 10 kids have changed the lives of over 200 families forever. One night of partying has left helpless victims to literally clean up a disaster they had nothing to do with creating. People need help. Demolished homes need to be cleared away, erosion needs to be addressed before the rains come, new and temporary homes need to be found, the list goes on. This entire situation makes me feel so angry and all I want to do is help my friends recover from a loss I cannot even imagine. I want to help them by making sure that justice is able to run its course - how do we make sure that they are even prosecuted - let alone prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law?

Would someone jog my memory? As I recall the names of the Santa Ynez workers that started the Zaca Fire were released to the public almost immediately. Is that correct? Were they arrested? I vaguely recall seeing them in a courtroom looking pretty confused.

The felony charges were dropped last month, but they still face a misdemeanor count:

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/oct...

Keep in mind, with the Zaca Fire, we knew from the beginning what had happened, but with all focus on fighting the fire, the media didn't pay attention to specific names for weeks--the first Independent reports just called the workers who started the fire "ranch hands." The names of those who started the Tea Fire will be released soon enough.

Of course all the facts aren't know, but enough are known for folks to be rightly upset.

1) Ten adults trespassed on private land.

2) They set a bonfire (an enormous fire) on somebody else's property at a time of high fire alert.

3) They left the scene early the next morning "believing" that they had extinguished the fire even though they had no access to a hose or running water.

4) Their actions injured dozens and possibly lead to the death of one, not to mention caused millions in damage, burned down over 100 homes, and destroyed countless personal belongings such as photos, paintings, family heirlooms, etc., that can't be replaced.

5) An anonymous tipster turned them in. Not one of these ten adult's came forward on their own.

We've all done stupid things in our lives, but these people's actions are beyond stupid. They MUST be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and an example MUST be set that is remembered and talked about for years so this doesn't happen again.

Furthermore, if (and this is a big if) they are Westmont students, an argument can strongly be made to close down the school and for all land and assets to be sold in order to help pay for some of the damage the student's inflicted.

I have to respond to the last poster's ludicrous comment. There exists absolutely no argument that IF this indeed was caused by Westmont students that they should be made to closing the school down.

This was 10 individuals who were acting on their own behalf. Their stupidity and poor judgment should not be a reflection on the other 1,300 students that watched parts of their campus burn down, and the many faculty members at Westmont who lost their homes.

Even if this was caused by a few Westmont students, the rest of Westmont College was still victimized, just as much as everyone else in the Montecito community.

I understand your anger, but directing it at the College is misplaced. The only people you have a right to be upset at are those 10 thoughtless individuals alone.

If they are UCSB or SBCC student or ____ (put in your alma mater)- are some of you bloggers going to be writing the same crap? Give us a break! What I read in this blog tells me that there are some real people out there with some misguided motives who would love to burn a school like Westmont down. Maybe it wasn't the cinders from the bonfire at all. Wouldn't it have been easy for someone to use such a group as an alibi and 8 hours later drop a little match at the site?

If the students are still dependents of their parents, and some will be because many Santa Barbara college students are put through school by their parents, then they WILL be covered under their parent's liability insurance. Meaning, IF they are under the coverage, their unintentional act of negligence will likely be covered under their parent's insurance if sued by persons who were damaged. For those that lost homes or possessions and that did not have insurance, it may be neccessary to file civil suits in order to get some funds to replace your belongings. Because this incident caused us to be declared a disaster area, funds will also be released by the federal government to help families that do not carry insurance. However, in the fine line print there may be wording that the money is not a handout but a HIGH interest government loan. NOT the preferred way to go.

As the names are released, attorney's can investigate to see which students are still under mom & dad's wing and in those cases, people can file against the child/parent. For those affected, it is up to you to make sure that the people who made these poor choices pay for your damages, especially if your damages exceed what your insurance can pay.

Yes, these 10 young adults made a foolhardy bonfire. Do we know beyond all reasonable doubt that the embers of that bonfire caused the Tea fire? I don't think so, and if their are a few among the young adults with good lawyers, they might well evade all responsibility, unless their happens to be a security video camera on the area that shows no other human visitors and a flare-up of the embers after 13 hours of nothing else going on.

The ones who will get punished will be the honest, remorseful and poor among the 10 young adults who can't afford attorneys. They'll be shredded like red meat by sharks. The other young adults' attorneys will focus all blame on the honest, remorseful, and poor.

Welcome to America.

Homes in Goleta were protected by the groves of avocados and lemons, but in Montecito, people live right up against the mountains. Perhaps that is foolhardy also.

Wow, it's not suprising to see the kind of emotions being expressed here. Thanks Indy for creating this forum for expression. I cannot believe so many homes were lost. And to think it was because of somebody's carelessness is beyond comprehension. That being said, I remember being in college, and I did not always make the right decisions. These are brand new adults making their way into the world. Yes, they made a huge mistake they will live with for the rest of their lives. Have any of you ever done something stupid in college? What a horrible tragedy for everybody involved.

Given that we do not yet know that the young adults were from Westmont - this is just a thought and not to be prematurely assumed but...

What if the young adults were Westmont students? Is there a case that can be made about Westmont's rules, procedures, standard of expected student conduct and education at student orientation pertaining to trespassing and fire danger. According to Westmont's own public relations official, students have a long history of visiting (tresspasing) in the tea gardens.

If Westmont did not properly orient their new community members to the dangers and perils of the area then perhaps the institution is partially culpable.

If fire danger has not been part of student orientation it certainly should be.

One hopes these irresponsible individuals have seen the carnage and destruction caused by their stupidity. One hopes they have seen the dead and incinerated pets, the stark blackened ruins, all monuments to years of happy family living gone in a flash. Two young people are hovering near death and firemen have burned and risked their own lives because of the insanity of these few. If they are students of Westmont they need to be expelled immediately, and if not whomever they are part of their punishment should be compulsory community work, namely battling on the fire lines..

Below is another perspective that was posted on Noozhawk. I find myself having all the conflicting emotions and thoughts of so many that have posted. Brother Joseph's message below touches me deeply. I know that I am really fortunate/lucky that stupid things that I did not only as a youth - but as an adult did not result in their own disasters to others and myself. I cry at the loss of Mt. Calvary and the many homes and lives that have been so painfullly impacted. I honor Brother Joseph for being able to lift us higher than many of us seem to be able to go in this moment.

Br. Joseph Brown, OHC wrote on 11/18/08 @ 08:42 PM

If this is true, then it is very difficult for me to process the feelings. I was one of the monks at Mount Calvary Monastery. It was my home and the spiritual home of literally tens of thousands of people from around the world. Priceless works or art, books, historical treasures pertaining to the Order, archives and all of my personal possessions of the monks were lost. And this is the point at which being a Christian Monastic reaches its very core. I have to forgive these young people, AND do all that I can to help them. If I am unable to do that, then my habit, and my place in the monastery was a sham. That is what Christianity is, not Yes on Prop 8, not Faldwell or Dobson. It is forgiveness and reaching out to those who have hurt us. If as a monk I am unable to do that, then I did not deserve to live at Mount Calvary

The fact is these were young adults and we can all imagine what school they were students at. I'm sure it was innocent but there is no excuse for the blatant stupidity. Based on where this started most of us accurately jumped to the right conclusion on how this started. They were simply doing what college kids do.

Given that this is a pretty normal thing to expect from young people, it seems to me that our schools ought to make a big deal out of fire prevention. Beyond Smoky the Bear in grade school I doubt students hear much about it again. Considering how vulnerable we are the schools really need to start making this message loud and clear and amping it up once summer hits. One man is dead and two are severely burned. Given the situation with the Sycamore Cyn gate alot of people could have died. We definitely can't afford to have young people learn this lesson again.

Hmmm, I wonder how things woul have played out if the 10 adults had been 10 east side gang members?

I hope the DA does charge them to the fullest extent they can.Because they are young and made a stupid mistake is NOT an excuse.

No Westmont students have been or are under investigation. Check out www.westmont.edu. Besides, think logically about this, the entire Westmont student body is spread out right now as this is a residential campus. Arresting 10 people during this dispersion would take a tremendous coordinated effort and cause a lot of publicity. The fire-starters were not Westmont students so all of you hate mongers shut up!

Two of my friends were badly burned running from this fire. They're on life support in Irvine, and they might not make it. These punk ass kids, they're not young adults to me, should absolutely be charged, and their names released immediately. Besides the elderly man that died, Lance and Carla and their 3rd degree burns, how about the 200 homes that burned down? The massive evacuations, the Red Cross shelters? We're humans, and we make mistakes, but this is just sheer stupidity, plain and simple.

Unless you lost your house in this fire or any other Santa Barbara fire, SHUT THE F... UP! You have no clue.

Can Santa Barbara County pass a law to make it a felony to set a bonfire unless you are literally two feet from the ocean? Why would anyone even want to light a bonfire while it was unseasonably warm? I am amazed at the stupidity of today's youth. I hope they each receive jail time and millions of hours of community service to rebuild all of the lives they shattered.

While attending SBHS (80's) we often partied up at the T-Bowls and frequently saw other locals of all ages doing the same. It was a beautiful, magical spot and one that has been enjoyed this way since at least the 60's. On occasion we were run off by the sheriff but most of the time it was just a nice place to hike and enjoy the view of the city and channel. The water works and stone construction of the property really are a testament to the skill of the original builders. Obviously having any kind of fire up there is a horrible idea and I know that the sheriff and fire dept. have responded to fires there in the past. When I heard that the fire started up there I thought immediately that this would turn out to be the cause (as did all of the old friends I talked to). I remember the way the guy who accidently started the '77 Sycamore Canyon Fire (which I watched burn down my house as a kid) was run out of town and suffered death threats. This is probably why they are withholding the names for now. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and let the fire and law enforcement investigators finish their job. The people responsible are going to be held accountable and they will have to live with the destruction they have caused for the rest of their lives. I wish those of you who suffered a loss in this fire the best in the long journey of moving on.

Incredulous, save your version of hate for those who voted yes on 8, unlike myself. By the way, hate to break the news to you, but there were actually a lot of Westmont students & staff that voted against 8. But your hatred of anything that has Christ associated w/ it will always keep you from seeing that fact. It's alright, my understanding of Christian writings says you'll be forgiven as well.
But why are we wasting time on this issue when it's about who started the Tea Fire? Man, let it go to another forum on here :) henry

Thanks truthteller40 re: the possibility that it wasn't Westmont students. Maybe they are giving SBCC time to come to grips with the fact that it was their students? Or Brooks? Who knows, let's all wait for the facts and names.

There is a lot of anger and hatred in the comments I have read above. I understand that people are furious about this fire, but I believe that many of the commenters have taken this way too far. The Tea Fire was a tragedy, and the effects it has had on this community are immeasurable. However, the way in which many of you are attacking the individuals that caused this fire is out of line.
While my first question after reading this story was which school these students belong to, frankly it doesn't matter. The school did not cause the fire, and should not be blamed for it or held accountable. Calls to fine the school or shut it down are rediculous, this was not a school sanctioned event but an act of individuals who happened to attend the same school. If they had all happened to attend the same church would there be a call to shut it down? What if they all happened to work at cottage hospital? The link of the school may have brought them together, but it is not the schools fault that they were engaged in this activity.
Attacking the religious or political affiliations of the students is also out of line. Assuming they are "rich kids" and spoiled is also showing classism and ageism. These 10 young adults did not start a fire as representatives of any particular group, many of your attacks against them appear to be attacks against their peers who had nothing to do with this incident at all.
People have a right to be emotional about this, but please try to be reasonable. These 10 will have to live with this accident for the rest of their lives. They had no malicious intentions and surely the thought that their partying could cause any kind of trouble never crossed their minds. It was a very stupid mistake, but it was just that, a mistake. Their case should be reviewed in court, and go through due process. However, we should not instantly jump to the conclusion that they are horrible monsters that should be locked up for the rest of their lives. They were very likely innocent people looking to have a peaceful good time, and made a mistake that will haunt them every day for the rest of their lives.
Put down the pitchforks people.

There is a local web site set up to offer and receive help:

http://teafire.ning.com/

Doesn't anyone remember what it was like to be young and make a poor choice? These kids probably didn't think their fire was responsible for something that happened 24hrs later and in a criminal trial, I don't know if we can prove that it was the cause. Though adults, they are still young and never dreamed of the consequences their party would cause. They have to live with that for the rest of their life and I think that is punishment enough.

Also, as I recall, the weather was very cool and not windy the previous night, we had been on a cooling trend and it had even rained recently. I know the weather reports were warning us of it warming up, but that doesn't mean everyone was aware of that, and the cooler weather and rain would have made it seem like fire season was over. I remember being shocked at how warm and windy it was the evening of the fire. Yes, they were careless in not completely extinguishing the fire, but I believe they THOUGHT they had put it out, and the fact that it took 24hrs of smoldering and a drastic change in conditions to spark into this disaster seems to say that it was not extreme carelessness, just a bad judgement as to the fire being completely out.

My father-in-law and his wife lost their home and everything but what they could carry out in the space of an hour. Blame doesn't help. There is a wonderful community here that is helping every way they can, but NOTHING will restore priceless family heirlooms or ease the anguish of having your whole life turned upside-down in the matter of an hour.

What does it matter what college these kids go to? Colleges are not responsible for everything these kids do. Schools cannot and should not police their every activity. Should we be going after the store that sold them the matches? They had more to do with the behavior of the kids than the college did.

Knowing that it was not started deliberately or through horrible carelessness (cigarette etc) is a comfort to me. Let the courts do what they can (and believe me, if they can press criminal charges they will). I agree that the names are withheld to protect them (and the school) from retaliation. I can just see some idiot go and set fire to their houses in some perversion of the eye-for-an-eye justice and end up causing another out of control fire.

Send these kids up to help home-owners pick through the rubble so they are fully aware of the pain they caused then put them to work rebuilding the houses so they have to put their bodies to work fixing what they caused. That and the mental anguish and blame they will never escape should be punishment enough.

Now identified, the perpetrators should be publicly identified and charged. This will stop all the speculation, and get some facts on the table. No one should be subject to unfair accusations, but neither should they be shielded if culpable. Let the courts decide if any civil or criminal punishment is due them for their recklessness.

Obviously, these were 10 oblivious Westmont students with no regard or knowledge of the community around them. It was not intentional, but the degree of stupidity and negligence is unbelievable and deeply saddening. To me, this terrible event just shows that it is too dangerous to have a bunch of "college kids" living the time of their lives amidst residential neighborhoods and Santa Barbara landmarks. Westmont is, to some degree, responsible.

This is incredibly sad, both for the loss to so many & because of the cause.

Young people have been going up to the Tea Garden for decades. It was a matter of time before this happened somewhere. There are several other beautiful natural areas where young & even not so young people like to gather & one of them was where the Gap fire started (although this time it was arson).

Years ago I had to remind a group of not so young adults who were making plans for a full moon gathering in a remote mountain area that having a small fire was a crazy idea.

And I see people tossing cigarettes out of cars while driving up 154 all the time.

My point is that for many years I've been concerned about the general lack of fire awareness in our general community.

So many of our population includes visitors and college students & newer residents who are not as aware of the dangers as those of us who have lived through these kinds of devastating fires.

TheDriver is right about the guy who innocently started the Sycamore Canyon fire (his kite got caught in power lines) being sent death threats. The authorities advised him to move because his life was in danger.

The hatred that I hear in many of the voices here is really disheartening. It's not what will help the victims to recover from this tragedy. Of course the young people responsible need to be held accountable for their actions and to make amends, as far as possible. That's a given. But hating them and demonizing them, speculating about their political views and the rest, all that feeds is the flames of ill-will. No way that can be helpful--not to the victims, not to the community, not to the hearts of those who are raging.

Let's focus on helping those who have lost so much.

"To me, this terrible event just shows that it is too dangerous to have a bunch of "college kids" living the time of their lives amidst residential neighborhoods and Santa Barbara landmarks"

Seriously? And if it had been started by an elderly person whose walker caused a spark would you ban everyone over the age of 60? If it had been started by a 5 year old playing with matches would you exile all kids? If it was started by a smoker would you ban all smokers? Wait.. one of them was wearing a red shirt, so we should get rid of red shirts! Actually why don't we ban groups bigger than 9 people so this won't happen again!

Many people don't like having rowdy college kids living near them but don't use this tragedy for your own agenda.

The only real solution is promoting awareness, improving our technology in fighting fires and responsiveness to putting them out. Maybe someday we'll have infra-red images of all of SB and the smoldering remains of the fire would have been noticed on such a high risk day and put out properly. That is where I think our efforts should be focused.

Statement about the Nov. 18 Tea Fire Press Conference

We have been working closely with the investigators and at no time have they implicated any of our Westmont students.

Sheriff Brown is a wise man.

As exhibited here, there are those who are willing to jump to a conclusion, or worse to create a conclusion to forward a personal hate about a person or a group of people.

Lets say these are Westmont students, I read here that because they might have voted in favor of Prop 8, and because they are from out of town, the college campus should be sold to pay the victims.

What if it is not Westmont? What if it was the UCSB Gay and Lesbian Club? Should UCSB be sold to pay the victims?

Westmont as a College and the faculty have been hit maybe the hardest by this fire, and if it is caused by another group, how will Westmont respond?

Will Westmont attack them because they may voted differently at some time on some issue?

Will Westmont and those faculty who have lost everything demand - those in any way related to those who started the fire be forced to sell and give them money?

I doubt it. I think Westmont after all the pain and cost, will forgive.

Maybe Westmont is in our community for a reason. Maybe we can learn forgiveness and integrity from these young men and young women.

And maybe we can see the extreme sharp contrast to those who hate Westmont no matter what and Westmont and their students and then determine who do we want as a neighbor at a time of trouble or who we want around when we make a mistake or need a helping hand.

For me the answer is clear. I will pick Westmont, they are a bright light in a community obsessed with wealth and selfishness.

Time to back off, wait for the truth and then there are many on this blog who need to apologize if what most know that it was not Westmont students.

Will you?

My barn, having burned to the ground, I can now see the moon (Buddhist saying)
Gerry Marr taught me how to do a walking meditation at the Tea Gardens. It was [then] such an incredible place where the outside and inside could come together without seams. Now I learn of friends who have lost everything there, and why? I just cannot imagine the state of mind it takes to light a fire on a hillside in California in the fall. So many have paid the price. It's simply so sad, really, in every way.

The school the kids attend should have provided them with important information about the area, especially the danger of wildfires. Did it?

Of course everyone should know that fires are an extreme danger in this area, but we aren't born knowing that, and we even need to be reminded from time to time. Kids raised in this area probably learn it by reading and hearing stories about it while they are growing up, but it's likely that in this case some of the kids who started the fire did not grow up here.

Stella makes some excellent points! Thanks

One of the most disturbing elements is the fact that the students did not stand up and say they were involved. We have all, at some moment in life, been neglectful, been stupid, been careless.

They had to be identified through an anonymous tip. Not one of them was man or woman enough to say, "Yes, I was involved. I will accept the consequences."

What if the investigators had not received that tip? Had not found their identity? Would those involved have gone on with their lives, concealing the secret? I believe so.

Would your child stand up and admit wrongdoing? Would you?

We now know that there are ten people in our community who would not - did not.

They drove by a HIGH FIRE DANGER sign on their way up there.

"Would your child stand up and admit wrongdoing? Would you?

We now know that there are ten people in our community who would not - did not."

Actually, we don't know this at all. I could quite possibly have been one or more of them who called in the tip. It's such a tragedy - for ALL involved.

Dear gml,

Your statement "Obviously, these were 10 oblivious Westmont students" is not only ignorant, but wrong.

NO WESTMONT STUDENTS WERE INVOLVED IN THE FIRE.

This is a fact and will be announced to the press soon. I do not think the names of those responsible should be published because obviously some of you are out for blood revenge. The situation is sad enough but I feel pity for those of you who are blindly assigning blame.

I've just heard that the Santa Barbara High School District has taken up the issue of training students in fire safety.

I'm involved with one of our area Scout troops, and we spend a lot of time teaching boys fire safety: not just how to survive a fire, but where and when to light fires safely, how to extinguish them properly, and the like.

Many kids never camp or backpack growing up, so they don't have these skills. If just one or two of these ten kids had, the fire might have been doused properly, or better yet, the bonfire might not have happened in the first place.

If we educate every kid in a school district on how to handle fire in Santa Barbara, then in a number of years we will have a more educated adult population and a safer place.

"Actually, we don't know this at all. I could quite possibly have been one or more of them who called in the tip. It's such a tragedy - for ALL involved."

Yikes! I meant to write "It could quite possibly" NOT "I could quite possibly" ....

Pimms with his five reasons of ignorance, and all of you others who think you should hold the school responsible... obviously you people live in the Montecito area, or have in some way been effected by this fire. I don't know how you guys got to live in Montecito, maybe it was old wealth, maybe you won the lottery, but you obviously did not get to live in Montecito through your intelligence. You didn't earn the right to live there. You are talking about shutting down whichever school that is responsible for this fire and taking all that money and giving it to these people that lost everything to help with amends for what happened. I can't even grasp the amount of ignorance that it took to make a comment like that.

Say it was Westmont College, which has a student body of nearly 1,400 students. 10 of those students were responsible for the fire, you are going to shut down the school for a non-sanctioned event, in which Westmont had no part in, and make the school responsible. That is less than 1% of the student body that is responsible for starting this fire. You are going to blame the whole school for it? Now you please explain to all of us who are reading this incredibly ignorant posts and tell us how that is reasonable. Obviously you had time to sit down and make a numbered list of why these students should be held responsible (which I agree with, don't get me wrong) and really thought about what you were going to say, and the best you came up with was put it on the school? I am just in shock and awe at how dumb that sounds. You should be blaming the students (that is if they really are responsible, which we may never REALLY know). The rest of the 1,390 or so students that had NO PART WHATSOEVER IN THIS should not even be put in that category of blame…..

I do agree that it was really stupid to have a bonfire up there, or to even smoke up there. However, you cannot put the rest of the students in that category, because the fact of that matter is THEY WERE NOT UP THERE. They had no part in it, and you blaming them just shows your ignorance and all of us get to make fun of YOU, the person who blames all the students for the actions of less than 1% of the student body.

There is no proof that they were Westmont students, and quite frankly if it was, I am sure that the entire school would know. Secrets do not remain secrets at Westmont. What if it was Santa Barbara Community Church members? Are you going to demand that they shut down SBCC and give all of their assets and offerings that they receive from their members?

I do feel horribly for those who have lost homes. All of you who think that for some reason they should get all this money from the school are plain out dumb. There is something called insurance, and if you have a multi-million dollar home, in a heavily wooded area, that is a fire dangerous zone, and you don't have fire insurance. Then I laugh at you for being so careless. It was bound to happen. One way or another, there was going to be a fire. I am extremely sorry for those, and have been out at many houses trying to help all that I can, but you cannot point fingers and blame.

May God bless all the familes who lost homes, and may his love fill their lives.

100% these dumb asses are from Westmont. I went to both SBCC, and UCSB and I never even heard of the Tea Gardens until this awful fire started. I say let the people who started the bonfire (who made it, who lit matches, etc) do time and everyone else with some serious probation....5-10 yrs....A slap on the wrist to these "young adults" would do absolutely no justice for everyone effected by the fire....but hey, it's SB and let's be realistic. this will be swept under the rug in no time.

sorry Pimms, I meant Lars...

One assumes risks when living in a high-risk area. While I love Mission Canyon and the Mountain Dr. area, I'm glad I live on the Mesa. That said, those involved with the fire must be prosecuted to the full extent. They were trespassing, they started a fire under dangerous circumstances, and, most significantly, they apparently did not come forward on their own. It's one thing to build a bonfire on the beach--public property, fire can't spread, etc., but this is a blatant example of stupid, arrogant, and illegal behavior.

bigsunami44 -

From my earlier post. When your uninformed accusation is proven wrong, will you formally apologize to Westmont and all of us on this blog.

And I am confident that Westmont will apologize if their students were responsible, or if anyone there makes bold uninformed statements, will you big sunami 44?

To me it just looks like a lot of people have been waiting for a way to show their anger towards Westmont. If this were City College or UCSB there would be no such reaction toward the schools.

Regardless of guilt, I'm proud of Westmont College for it's positive impact on the Santa Barbara community.

As an a former student I can speak for myself and most all of my friends that attended Westmont. We didn't come from wealthy homes and most of us attended on scholarships and loans (much provided by the college).

I thank God for Westmont... and am thankful that regardless of the outcome, they will maintain their integrity and show their grace.

To those haters out there... I urge you to watch the Westmont community closely and see the evidence of grace, humilty and generosity... they embrace both those that love and hate them.

westmont should pay for it

Furthermore, regardless of who's responsible for the fire. Let's surround them with compassion and forgiveness! Of course consequences must be met...

But how many mistakes have you and I made in our lives? Too many to count. This was a foolish and careless mistake that was unintentional. What a testimony to the community and world would it be if we surrounded these poor kids in support and forgiveness. Consider the weight of guilt they are already carrying...

Consider what it is that they REALLY did. And think back to what kinds of mischief many of us participated in as "young adults".

"westmont should pay for it". I just pray people like this don't own a gun or matches!

Striker02! I just provided a link for info on the Zaca Fire. The commenter's name goes below his or her comment! I agree with you--the individuals involved should be held responsible, we as a community need to be sure everyone is educated on fire safety, and we all need to be supportive now of those who lost their homes. Whatever college these people attend has no bearing on the case.

Apology accepted, Striker02!

As a matter of fact, anonymous means anonymous, which means that it could have been one (or more) of the 10 people who were involved who called in the "tip" and simply wanted to remain anonymous to everyone, perhaps especially to the other people within the group of 10 involved.

Read all of the above. Lots of emotion out there - understandable.

Don't think wealth, politics, etc has anything to do with it.

It's also just plain and simple not correct to say "aww poor kids just did something stupid".

I consider myself a friendly, law abiding, Santa Barbara loving citizen. If I was to do something stupid like have a few beers, jump behind the wheel, and accidentally kill someone do you think there would be a tremendous outcry of "awww...he's just a nice party guy" ? Nope, my name would be released in the Independent/News Press the very next day and with the possible exception of the family pardoning me...I would most certainly pay a legal price. I see no difference here. In fact, I see a level of stupidity that reaches far beyond mine as a 20ish year old...and believe me that's hard to imagine.

At the moment our town in a TinderBox. To not realize that, not recognize the FIRE DANGER SUPER HIGH signs right down the road from Westmont, and just live oblivious and expect everyone else to excuse your destructive stupidity is ridiculous.

Frankly, if we pardoned everyone for their destructive stupidity we would essentially erase legal responsibility for just about everything.

Putting yourself in a stupid/precarious situation is fine with me. Putting others or an entire city in that situation: Not fine. My God look at all the irreplaceable homes, history, art, landscapes, and lives these actions shattered!

OK, putting my soap box away...but I live at APS and Las Alturas so I earned the right to get on the box for a minute.

I have no idea what just punishment is that preserves the lives of these adults (ie not jail)...but I'll be happy if the legal system comes up with one with one.

Anyone have any legal insight on this?

I'd like to hear what the response from the angry posters will be if it indeed turns out that Westmont students WERE NOT involved. Do you feel the same toward City College? Or UCSB? Or Brooks?

"They drove by a HIGH FIRE DANGER sign on their way up there."
Did it say High Fire Danger on Wednesday night? Or was it changed to High on Thursday when the weather heated up?
Did they notice it? I don't know that I believe those signs when I see them, I know I've seem them up on 'extreme' even when it was raining. There may actually still be an extreme danger but 'common sense' tells you that you can't start a wildfire in the rain. I'm not defending their actions, I'm just saying that they would NEVER have done what they did if they knew what would happen. It doesn't excuse their ignorance but they either didn't notice the signs or didn't think they were serious. The only way to prevent that happening again is to educate so people look for and understand what the warnings mean.

"It's one thing to build a bonfire on the beach--public property, fire can't spread, etc., but this is a blatant example of stupid, arrogant, and illegal behavior."
So if they had built the fire on public property it wouldn't seem so bad to you? What if they had done it on their own, private property? What makes you think fire can't spread just because it is started next to a body of water? If the wind blows inward there are plenty of dry grasses to catch on fire. Also, I don't know any beach around here that doesn't prohibit bonfires. Plenty of people still have them, but they think its 'safe' just because they ocean is on one side of them. The kids who started this one thought they were being 'safe' also, using just as bad judgement as those who start fires on the beach.

Put yourself in one of these 10 adults' shoes. What punishment would you expect? Financial? Jail Time? Probation?

someone wrote "It's one thing to build a bonfire on the beach--public property, fire can't spread, etc."

YIKES!

This is the very same very bad judgement that went into creating this fire!

This only underlines my earlier point about the serious ack of awareness in our community regarding fire safety.

It is human nature to trust empircal evidence, every time they saw a 'high' fire danger sign and no fires broke out, it makes them take the danger a little less seriously. Every time they had a bonfire (and I doubt this is their first) and they didn't start a wildfire, they thought they were doing it the right way. This kind of thinking is especially common in young adults.

They should face some consequences, but I don't think jailtime or even monetary punishments will do any good. We need them to feel the consequences of what they've done as badly as those who lost their homes, work on making it right as much as possible, and help educate to prevent it happening again.

They didn't understand that this is a possible outcome of what they chose to do. It doesn't excuse them from blame or punishment, but I think it makes the matter of how to punish them very different. What they did hurt several people emotionally and financially. Their punishment should be to share in that burden and work on fixing the damage. That will truly help the people who lost everything more than putting them in jail or closing a school. It will help those kids by teaching them a real lesson rather than imprisoning them and costing us more money. Then require those kids to reach out and teach other kids about the dangers and the proper precautions to take. Then there will be a real benefit/change and maybe it won't happen again for this reason.

3rd gen,
I live in the mountains and while I understand the risks, that should not include having to worry about irresponsible idiots who light campfires (sorry I cannot believe it was a "bonfire" as that would have been seen the night before) around dry brush.
The fire signs in the area have said HIGH for many weeks (probably months) and were completely ignored by this group. Anybody that would light a fire in the hills around here at any time, is not thinking clearly. Sure it was a stupid mistake, but it was mistake that affected many people and its time for them to be ready and accept the punishment. As for what school they are from, what difference does it make? These were 10 individuals acting on their own and the school should not be part of the dialogue.

If-- and I say IF-- Westmont students were responsible for this fire, the institution does bear *some* responsibility. This is a high fire area and they're bringing 1200 *young* (i.e. hormonal, naive, impulsive, sure-they'll-live-forever) people into it.

School rules ban alcohol and limit opposite sex dorm visits on campus. With these rules in place, it's only natural that *some* kids will break them-- smoke or drink or have sex off campus. The college should expect this, and plan for it. Why wouldn't Westmont safety officers patrol the Tea Garden, if it was a well known party spot?

While I agree with the Westmont supporters above that "kids will be kids," I think that the COLLEGE needs to deal with the reality that their students are human and prone to mistakes, no different than UCSB kids or CC kids.

I also agree that Westmont's orientation and fire safety programs should be examined to be sure that the institution provides comprehensive safety education: the meaning of high fire risk, the danger of sundowner conditions, the rapidity with which fire can spread in this topography, the history of local fires-- not just evacuation but prevention. The college should throroughly brief all incoming students as to the extreme danger inherent in tossing a lit cigarette or building any fire in this high-fire-risk region. Maybe this is indeed done. I hope so.

I hope there was not a "rose-colored glasses" approach to normal 18 year olds somehow being above normal 18 year old temptations/stupidity/highjinks.

Looks like alot of you found another reason to spew anger and hate. I would love to know who among you never did a stupid thing, as a teenager or an adult. My bet is there isn't one of you who is perfect.

I'm with mtndriver...this is the time to pull together and help each other, not spread the hate.

I'd say years and years of community service is the call myself. I can just see the presentation now...a nice PowerPoint at Santa Barbara County schools with all the terrible images of the fire and the introduction "Hi kids, I'm one of the mindless jackasses that destroyed all of this..."

May pack a punch and help educate/prevent.

Jail time a further waste of our tax dollars...OK I admit it... I might be into 4 months in Lompton for all 10 of them....just for fun.

You can not blame people for being angry under the circumstances of this situation...The way to move forward through all of this IS with compassion and optimism, but this is a fresh wound and people want some answers...
I will be relieved if this fire was not caused by Westmont students, but the facts seem to point in that direction
"...18-22 year old, area residents, all from 1 school" plus the fact that the campus is less then a mile away from the Tea Gardens.
It is hard for me to not have anger when so many of my friends and family have lost their homes. Santa Barbara/Montecito has not always been only a haven for the wealthy. Many of the homes that were destroyed in this fire were passed down from generation to generation...and they were not all mega mansions. The majority of my friends houses that burnt down were built 50+ years ago by the hands of our grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles. It feels like the end of an era.
All of the people living in the area have been well aware of the fire danger...Mountain Dr. even has its own volunteer fire dept. We have been anticipating a fire for a long time, but one of this magnitude and the way it was caused is devastating. The only thing we as a community can do is rebuild and forgive, but people/establishments need to be accountable for their actions.

"School rules ban alcohol and limit opposite sex dorm visits on campus. With these rules in place, it's only natural that *some* kids will break them-- smoke or drink or have sex off campus. The college should expect this, and plan for it. Why wouldn't Westmont safety officers patrol the Tea Garden, if it was a well known party spot?"

Should UCSB enact no drinking policies and hire private security guards roam IV and enforce them? Should your work enforce its "drug free" policy by monitoring events where multiple employees gather?
Westmont may be able to impose rules to students on campus, but what they do off campus is their choice and their own responsibility. The school does not need to impose on their personal lives and follow them around. If police officers were to patrol the area for people that are breaking the law (ex: trespassing), then that is a totally different story.

I understand the anger. When I was stuck in traffic and frustrated a few weeks ago because a young person from the area had closed off the 101 with a gun and an American flag, it was hard not to feel a little vindictive at the time. And that inconvenience was NOTHING compared to what we've just lost -- including my school (Westmont), sixteen of my colleagues' families, and a number of my students.

People want to vent, and that's natural. Especially those of you who are grieving, injured, homeless, and suffering. At times like this, we need to cut one another some slack, whether we're on the giving end or the receiving end of nasty comments. We can also express appreciation for the gracious comments that circulate alongside them, some of which I've heard here.

If the rumors I've heard are true and it turns out that the students are from SBCC, I just want to say this: I am very, very grateful for SBCC. They are invaluable. On slim budgets and with open enrollment, they bring all kids of useful education to all kinds of area residents. They open up classes to high schoolers so that someone like my son can take Latin at no extra cost, have additional flexibility at San Marcos High, and get an early taste of college. My students at Westmont take advantage of SBCC classes to make their own schedules more flexible, to enrich their education, and to lower the pain of our high tuition. City College is a great asset.

Also, if you're frustrated, ask yourself how it would feel if one of those ten people were from your own family. Schools mean young people, and young people bring problems. And yes, they need to be held accountable for their actions. But we should support the families and schools that help grow them up.

Have you never done anything wrong, never taken a risk without understanding the truth of that risk? Have you ever had the sun blind you while driving yet kept going? Not long ago there was a man who hit a child on a bike while blinded by the sun. Holding him responsible is the right thing to do, but don't tell me you have never driven with the sun in your eyes, you just never thought there might be a child on a bike in your path, or thought you'd see them in time... same as these kids rationalized away the risk they took and failed to understand the possible consequences.

"The fire signs in the area have said HIGH for many weeks (probably months) and were completely ignored by this group. " If the signs always say HIGH (even when it was raining) and no fires ever broke out in that area, it makes the warning SEEM irrelevant. Its human nature... these kids think 'oh, they forgot to lower it' or 'oh, they are just trying to make sure people are always careful' and if these kids have had bonfires before (and apparently safely extinguished them) then they didnt understand that it was luck that it didn't happen before.

I am just advocating for some empathy here, some understanding that these kids are not monster or villians, just stupid kids, and no stupider than any other kids their age, they just happened to make this specific wrong choice at this specific moment in time. (How many kids their age, when invited to a bonfire ask 'is it safe?' or even check the fire warning, they just think it sounds like fun). How many other bonfires have there been up there in the past few months?

How many people on here screaming for blood lost their home? Just out of curiousity since I think the people who are most affected and have the most right to decide the punishment are probably too busy picking up the pieces of their lives (as my father-in-law is) and grieving over whats been lost to have any energy left over for these kids. Nothing will replace the art and heirlooms that were lost and that includes punishing these kids or their school or whatever. They should face consequences but nothing can undo what has been done so lets make those consequences something that makes sense.

Every year, the Western U.S. suffers these devastating fires, often from human causes, yet we seem to be relying on good behavior to avoid them. Could we do better? We learned during the Tea Fire that the State provides data from a satellite called MODIS that can locate thermal anomalies/fire, to within about 1/4-mile. (See the Incident Map at
http://www.fire.ca.gov/index_incidents_T....)
According to the wikipedia, it is in polar orbit and images the entire earth every 1-2 days. Other satellites monitor visible light. So the question is whether MODIS or some other satellite could have picked up the bonfire on Wednesday night or Thursday morning and warned authorities that someone had encroached on the no-fire zone. We know that our military continuously monitors certain areas of the earth for a missile launch, the detection of which is similar to identifying a fire. Can NOAA and NASA develop an early warning system to help prevent disasters such as these?

Take it easy folks. It's easy to get angry if you've suffered a big loss, but just imagine what these kids are most likely going through and will probably have to continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

They screwed up, and there were terrible consequences, but which of us hasn't screwed up that much and escaped causing terrible consequences? Are we all so wonderful that we could never have done such a thing?

Let her/him who is without sin cast etc.

Different attitudes are prevalent pertaining to Westmont's partial culpability IF the young adults were Westmont students. As of yet there is no information stating that, however it is an issue that does exist IF it turns out the young adults are Westmont students.

(Incidentally, I happen to really like Westmont. I am a fan not a "hater." I think Westmont is a great school full of kind staff and mostly good hearted students. Westmont provides an idyllic place to get a first class education from highly respected and qualified professors.)

As of yet I do not have knowledge about the school's fire awareness education. I do know that they have strict rules that prohibit alcohol as well as coed dorms. I think that Snoofel and LWH16 also made a well spoken contribution to this line of reasoning.

This idea of "education" and an institution's culpability reminds me of the era of "sexual harassment in the work place." Not so long ago it was never spoken about. However, "now" in order to work somewhere you often have to "sign off" that you've received proper education and information to protect the employer from sexual harassment law suits.

Fire awareness is in an odd way a bit similar - both subjects seem like common sense that would be known and apparent to everyone. However, it turns out not to be the case and procedures have been set in place to uniformly standardize the education as well as behavioral expectations and protect different party's exposure to liability.

Just a thought.

Maybe this is an opportunity to standardize important fire education information to much of our youth - not just in Santa Barbara but everywhere. As we have shared, youth does have moments of less than great judgement. (Especially, young adults who are away from home for the first time.)

Perhaps a new standard is put in place by all colleges (especially in high fire areas) where expulsion is an immediate consequence of making fires or trespassing.

A standardized agreement is created and implemented by all colleges where students "sign off" and understand the severity and gravity of such behavior to help prevent future tragedy. (Driving under the influence could also be included in the "sign off." )

My deepest sympathies go out to everyone for their loss.

BartSimms - I haven't screwed up that much. I wouldn't cast a pebble at anybody, but this situation is boulders - which I feel compelled to catapult.

The consequences are boulders. The act itself was stupid, but as I said, who among has not done something equally stupid and gotten away with it by grace.

Please keep in mind that the Westmont community has been hit extremely hard by the fire. If it turns out that it was a Westmont students that started the fire it only makes it more difficult for the victims: 14 faculty members lost their houses, buildings (including dorms) burned down or were damaged and 1,000 students had to race to the gym and spend the night among the smoke and embers as the fire surrounded and moved onto campus. Blaming Westmont only makes things emotionally harder on people trying to pick up the pieces: many people seem to be pointing angry fingers at a community that really needs to be shown some love.

In hopes of quieting some of the mistaken assumptions & misguided anger on this site, I offer this post from Noozhawk.com.

>>>As the owner of the property nearest the tea gardens, I lost my family home, our dream home. we have spent the majority of the last 15 years working on completing this labor of love. We lost all our family history, heirlooms, jewelry, mementos and photos, along with a large part of our income. We were on the edge, financially, before this, and insurance will not come close to either rebuilding, or paying off the mortgage.

Of course what these kids did was “stupidity”.
Maybe if I had never done anything stupid, especially at that age, I could hold some malice toward these kids, but the reality is, their consciences will make them pay a price for the rest of their lives.

Thank you Brother Johnson for giving us a good model of forgiveness.<<<

The hatred aimed at Westmont by many on this page is both unsettling and frightening, given the fact that the school the students attend has yet to be named. The physical and emotional loss on the Westmont campus was also very real. If the students who started the fire are found to be from UCSB or one of the other schools in the Santa Barbara area, I wonder if some of those who have spewed unsubstantiated vitriol and hatred in the direction of Westmont College, might consider sentencing themselves to some community service of their own by driving to the campus and helping those students, faculty and staff whose lives were devastated by the fire pick through the ashes of their loss.

I was a kid born and raised in the SB foothills. I was raised with the fear of fire in the hills. Never in 35 years have I ever attended a campfire or bonfire in the foothills. I have been to the tea gardens and hung out at the tea bowls on several occasions. Yes, I have trespassed. But I certainly would never stand idly by watching someone start a bonfire in the hills.

It is not "just a stupid mistake" that some "young adults" made.

It is CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE to have a bonfire or campfire in the foothills any day of the year.

It is not kids being kids, it is kids being criminals.

Even though the kids did not intend to cause harm they still did through criminal negligence.

Compassion is important but so is driving home the importance of not starting any fire whatsoever in the foothills.

I believe that jail time, restitution and community service are very important components in deterring future pyros. A stiff penalty (if found guilty) will help re-enforce and educate the younger generations.

Compassion without a stiff penalty would breed more pyros in the future.

All local colleges should educate their students on community issues that are specific to the area.

If Westmont does not educate incoming students about the fire danger in their immediate backyard then this too is negligence. These kids are there for an education so why not educate them about how to live in our community without destroying it?

If Westmont (or any other college for that matter) did educate their incoming students on the high fire hazards of our community then they should be absolved of all culpability. Simple. New members of the community must be brought up to speed by the institutions that bring them here. I would encourage all local schools to include fire hazard and prevention education in student orientation. ESPECIALLY Westmont given that their students are new to town AND located in an extremely dangerous area for fire.

The fear of fire and property loss is hard for a student to understand. They have no home or family members to loose in a fire while they are away at college. The fear of incarceration, restitution, and community service is what has to reinforce common sense.

Well, there is quite a bit of vitriol spewed at UCSB students for Isla Vista. The Sheriff never would have hesitated to ID the suspects if this fire had been in Isla Vista. Eric Frimpong, David Attias...

The vitriol is misguided, naturally. Westmont and UCSB students add a huge amount to this area, as do SBCC and Brooks students. The net is overwhelmingly positive. All 20-year olds do reckless things, there but for the grace of God go I.

Yo, ECBob

Criticism and hatred are not the same thing. Anger and hatred aren't either. (Haven't you ever been angry at, or criticized, your own child?)

Because officials are withholding of the name of the school, it is fanning suspicions that the students are from Westmont. It's hard to think of a plausible reason that a CC or Brooks or UCSB affiliation would be withheld, whereas it's very easy to imagine why a Westmont affiliation would be withheld. There is a history of tensions between the college and the adjacent neighborhood that burned.

Hopefully the name of the school will be released soon and the rest of the discussion can proceed based on facts.

Side question: is anyone allowed to express concerns or criticisms about Westmont or its students without being accused of "hating"?

Thoughts from a Westmont Alum:

Many of the comments of the above posters have upset me a great deal, and I have to wonder, have those of you who made them actually been to Westmont or spent any appreciable time with any of its students? During my time at Westmont it always felt like Westmont had to go far above and beyond that of any other institution in the Santa Barbara vicinity to justify its existence. I understand that not everyone who reads this has these perceptions; however, I feel the need to clarify to those who do. Additionally, I understand that one person’s actions should not define a group as a whole, there will always be individuals who act in ways not reflective of the group. Unfortunately those individuals/actions often seem to be the ones that draw the most attention. Our society loves negativity and fosters it with extensive and grossly un-proportionate media coverage. There are a few things you need to know about Westmont students as a whole:

1. We fully understand that attending college (anywhere) is a privilege, not a right.
2. We are genuinely excited, grateful, and blessed to attend a school like Westmont in a place like Santa Barbara.
3. Westmont students understand the meaning of community, not just in the sense of geographic proximity, but in regard to mutual respect, common courtesy, concern, and caring about ALL of our neighbors in Montecito and Santa Barbara alike. Here is a little background:
a. Most students participate in community outreach. Some work with the homeless every Friday, or knit hats and scarves for them. Some work with the children in the community through groups such as Young-Life, YMCA and coaching. Some work with special needs individuals, and at nursing homes. Others give up their long breaks to go to places such as Ensenada, Mexico, Guatemala, and Russia to work with individuals in those communities. The campus frequently has clothing and food drives on behalf of others. You should have seen the outpourings following disasters such as Katrina, the Tsunami, and the earthquake in Pakistan. There is no extra credit, no money, and 99% of the time, no recognition associated with any of these activities. It isn’t why they do it. These students participate in these causes because they care about others, and they want everyone to maximize their potential.
Continued below...

...Continued
4. Westmont is not a bunch of “rich” kids. Most of the students receive federal aid and come from families whose parents are teachers, pastors, and fall well within the bounds of middle class. Yes, there are some students who come from more privileged backgrounds, every school has them. The difference is Westmont is not the school you go to if you want to go ‘hog wild’. A few things prevent that from happening. First, the faculty and staff care very much about the students and are very involved. So much so that it is very hard to mess up in your classes or otherwise without several different people recognizing it and confronting you. It isn’t because they are nosy, but because they actually care. Additionally, consider this about Westmont:
a. Dorms are single-sex with limited visiting hours by members of the opposite sex.
b. There is a strict prohibition of alcohol and tobacco use on campus and in the Montecito area.
c. Most students do not have cars on campus full-time until at least their 3rd year (so most live on campus).
d. Students are required to attend chapel 3 times a week.
e. Most classes have mandatory attendance policies allowing only 1 or 2 unexcused absences a semester.

Now call me crazy, but considering that those are only a few of the rather strongly enforced rules that ALL Westmont students must abide by (with the only wiggle room being the ability to transfer to another school), Westmont would definitely not be your stereotypical “rich kid’s” or "spoiled brat's" first choice in higher education. This is not because Westmont doesn’t offer a quality education, it does, and you have to work your tail off for it, it must be earned through hard-work and diligence. It is because Westmont is not a place you go with the intention of throwing your weight around and getting what you want. It isn’t even the place to go if you want the ‘normal’ liberties of college students today such as keg parties in the dorms (or even being able to have your significant other or a friend of the opposite sex in your room with the door closed). Some may find these rules overbearing, but they represent something significant, rare, and relatively amazing in this day and age. They exist as a mutual agreement of a group of adult individuals making a deliberate choice and agreeing to follow ground rules that will honor and respect the beliefs of ALL members of the community, carte blanche before they have even met these people. It is based upon respect, and stems from the central teachings of Christ's love for everyone, no matter their history.

Continued below...

...Continued
These rules are clearly outlined and are intentionally made a large part of a student’s decision to come to Westmont. It lays the foundation for a safe place that invites people of many different races, with many different backgrounds, opinions, and beliefs to come together to learn, to question, to challenge, and to grow with one central idea... Christ.
5. Some of the rules listed above were not borne of Westmont’s established value system, but more by its mission to “love thy neighbor.” Interestingly, several of those restrictions, such as the parking regulations, are a result of some Montecito residents throwing their weight around, and Westmont’s attempts to reach a compromise by surrendering rights that any property owner anywhere would have a hard time stomaching. The “I’m entitled, but you aren’t” philosophy goes much further. Just an example, the Westmont community is restricted to having any doors open at basketball games, dances, and vespers services after 8 pm due to the noise. That is fine, I understand, I am all about common courtesy, but I can remember countless times when there were parties at nearby estates with music playing so loud that you could hear it in a dorm room with the doors and windows closed at 1 or 2 in the morning, can you imagine the fines the school would receive if that were to happen the other way around? Despite this and many more things not mentioned, Westmont continues to try to reach out and make peace with its neighbors. I am not trying to say Westmont is without faults, nothing is, but there is a lot more to the little school in Montecito than “those rich kids on the hill” should they be given the benefit of the doubt.

I cannot speak with regard to the fire. I no more than anyone can tell you who did it or what the circumstances were, and it is not my place to judge them. No matter who they are, or what school they are from, those individual's lives will be changed forever, and we should be truly sorry. We all do seemingly harmless, but careless things without thinking, any number of which could unintentionally take human lives (Speeding on the highway, talking and driving), the point is that we are no different, we are no better. This isn't a justification, merely a reminder that the individuals involved are not monsters. No matter how much was lost, no amount of punishment will ever bring back what is gone and the fear and pain associated with it, but you might be surprised how much of an impact a second chance might make on the lives of 10 young adults. Who knows, but I do know that regardless of who started the fire, and despite Westmont's own tremendous losses (which value more than any other single property owner’s loss), the Westmont community is going to be there helping all the fire victims pick up the pieces and move on with their lives no matter who they are or what they think of the school, I guarantee it. In Christ.

It is amazing to me that people are forgiving "young people" for "making a mistake". Sure, I've made mistakes- but I have never lit a fire in a high fire danger zone or anywhere outside of a proper fireplace. My parents taught me to never play with fire and the realities and dangers of fire. They teach it to you in school, and after school programs. This is not a silly mistake. They didn't just break into a hotel jacuzzi or egg a house. This is something they knew not to do that killed at least one person, injured people and who knows about the animals - domestic or wild.

Of course the cause of death for the 98 year old was the fire. Maybe not from smoke inhalation - but he had to be evacuated, moved in a highly stressful situation. The shock is enough. No fire, no evacuation, still alive.

This was just put up on Westmont's website:

Tea Fire Updates
Tea Fire Update from President Gayle Beebe
Dear students, faculty, staff and friends:

It has nearly been a week since the Tea Fire ravaged our campus and the larger Montecito and coastal community. Our prayers are with all devastated by this fire as each of us affected throughout the region continues to face the reality of having our everyday lives turned upside down.

Due to the close proximity of the college to the off-campus site of the fire, we have been inundated with questions from many concerned audiences. I’m sure that you have also been contacted as a source of information by friends and family.

There are a few questions that have come up repeatedly, and I’d like to share my responses with you. The most accurate source of information about the fire investigation will come from the authorities themselves; misinformation will only cause greater suffering for the region. For information concerning the investigation, please refer to the Sheriff’s department.

Sincerely,
Gayle D. Beebe, President

1. Were any Westmont students involved in causing the fire?
No. On Wednesday afternoon at approximately 2:45 p.m., Drew Sugars, the public information officer for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, officially informed the college that no current Westmont students were present nor in anyway involved with this tragic incident.

We have been in regular contact with investigators since the fire and have been providing any information that might be helpful toward determining the exact cause of the fire. This is our responsibility as a community citizen. Our surrounding coastal region is home to many colleges and universities, and like all of them, we are awaiting new information.

It should be noted that at this point, the group of individuals responsible for starting the fire are under the jurisdiction of law enforcement authorities. Again, no current Westmont students were involved with this incident.

Now that it has been made public that NO westmont students were involved...I hope we can turn our prayers toward the 10 people who were involved and the school they represent! Hopefully, the lack of compassion expressed on this board will not be continued towards these individuals but instead may a hand of grace, forgiveness AND justice but extended their way. And may Westmont lead the community in that way.....

Absolved!

FYI: On Westmont's site: www.westmont.edu

1. Were any Westmont students involved in causing the fire?

No. On Wednesday afternoon at approximately 2:45 p.m., Drew Sugars, the public information officer for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, officially informed the college that no current Westmont students were present nor in anyway involved with this tragic incident.

We have been in regular contact with investigators since the fire and have been providing any information that might be helpful toward determining the exact cause of the fire. This is our responsibility as a community citizen. Our surrounding coastal region is home to many colleges and universities, and like all of them, we are awaiting new information.

It should be noted that at this point, the group of individuals responsible for starting the fire are under the jurisdiction of law enforcement authorities. Again, no current Westmont students were involved with this incident.

From westmont.edu:
I
nvestigators have determined that no current Westmont students were involved in the fire. Any suggestions to the contrary are false and damaging.

Despite rumors and speculation on the Internet, our utmost priority throughout the investigation has been addressing the needs of our campus and the surrounding community. That means providing information requested by authorities, cleaning up the demolished sites on our campus in preparation for returning to the academic term, and generally being a good neighbor in a time of great need. Second, we are providing accurate information directly from investigators to our college community in as timely a manner as possible.

Ultimately, the findings of the investigation will be made public by authorities and the individuals responsible for the fire will enter the jurisdiction of the law. Until that point, I ask that each of you do your part by avoiding undue speculation and by communicating responsibly, as is reflected in our values and mission.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As an alum, I'm very saddened by the finger pointing and hatred expressed here. Please pray for the individuals who set this fire and spend some time caring for your neighbor instead of spreading gossip on the internet.

Tea Fire Update from Westmont President Gayle Beebe

It has nearly been a week since the Tea Fire ravaged our campus and the larger Montecito and coastal community. Our prayers are with all devastated by this fire as each of us affected throughout the region continues to face the reality of having our everyday lives turned upside down.

Due to the close proximity of the college to the off-campus site of the fire, we have been inundated with questions from many concerned audiences. I’m sure that you have also been contacted as a source of information by friends and family.

There are a few questions that have come up repeatedly, and I’d like to share my responses with you. The most accurate source of information about the fire investigation will come from the authorities themselves; misinformation will only cause greater suffering for the region. For information concerning the investigation, please refer to the Sheriff’s department.

Sincerely,
Gayle D. Beebe, President

1. Were any Westmont students involved in causing the fire?

No. On Wednesday afternoon at approximately 2:45 p.m., Drew Sugars, the public information officer for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, officially informed the college that no current Westmont students were present nor in anyway involved with this tragic incident.

We have been in regular contact with investigators since the fire and have been providing any information that might be helpful toward determining the exact cause of the fire. This is our responsibility as a community citizen. Our surrounding coastal region is home to many colleges and universities, and like all of them, we are awaiting new information.

It should be noted that at this point, the group of individuals responsible for starting the fire are under the jurisdiction of law enforcement authorities. Again, no current Westmont students were involved with this incident.
2. When will students and faculty be able to return to campus?

The campus will reopen Saturday Nov. 29, at noon, and classes will restart Dec. 1. We are tirelessly working to clean up the campus and accommodate the entire campus population after the Thanksgiving holiday.
3. When will new information about the cause of the investigation be made available?

We have been informed by authorities that the investigation is still underway. It is important to resist the urge to speculate beyond what is currently known. Ultimately, the public needs to let the authorities do their job.
4. How is the college addressing rumors speculating about Westmont students?

Investigators have determined that no current Westmont students were involved in the fire. Any suggestions to the contrary are false and damaging.

Despite rumors and speculation on the Internet, our utmost priority throughout the investigation has been addressing the needs of our campus and the surrounding community. That means providing information requested by authorities, cleaning up the demolished sites on our campus in preparation for returning to the academic term, and generally being a good neighbor in a time of great need. Second, we are providing accurate information directly from investigators to our college community in as timely a manner as possible.

Ultimately, the findings of the investigation will be made public by authorities and the individuals responsible for the fire will enter the jurisdiction of the law. Until that point, I ask that each of you do your part by avoiding undue speculation and by communicating responsibly, as is reflected in our values and mission.

5. How can I help?

Along with your family and friends, I strongly encourage you to participate in our Wildfire Relief Fund. As a longtime member of the Santa Barbara community, we will be working in unison with the region toward rebuilding efforts and we will be releasing more information about those possibilities as appropriate. For now, I ask that you continue to keep all victims of this fire in your thoughts and prayers, and become involved in our community efforts.

Latest information can be found at www.westmont.edu

Any "proof from a news source other than Westmont?

Laura Collector's new lawsuit against Westmont for the Tea Fire has gone up in smoke.

Where are these false rumors and speculation on the Internet that Westmont refers to?

taceohat, Westmont's statement includes this:

"On Wednesday afternoon at approximately 2:45 p.m., Drew Sugars, the public information officer for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, officially informed the college that no current Westmont students were present nor in anyway involved with this tragic incident."

Telford Work

I have not found anything from any other newsource, but it seems to me that it is highly, highly unlikely that Westmont would explicitly lie about such a thing: what would there be to gain??? A momentary reprieve and then a huge public relations backlash once the truth was known??? I don't buy it.

Okay, maybe now some posters will re-think their knee-jerk responses here. (And I'm not a fan of Westmont, just a resident of the Mtn Drive area.)

I feel immensely fortunate that my house is still standing. If the wind hadn't shifted, it would be gone, along with many others in my neighborhood, and probably Mission Canyon, too. But I'm convinced that even if I had lost my house, revenge would not be motivating me now. Of course those who caused the fire must be held responsible for their actions. But unless their intention was malicious how could putting them in jail change anything? How likely is it that they would learn to be better citizens in jail? And I seriously doubt they had malicious intent. Stupid, selfish, short-sighted--probably those all apply. So find a mode of "punishment" that addresses the flaws in their thinking and attitudes that led to the actions. Community service? Sounds right to me at this point. But really, we know almost nothing about these kids (and to me, everyone under 30 seems like a kid). We all have a lot of mental energy for this situation--let's use it where it can actually HELP. Figure out ways to get people housed, to expedite rebuilding, to help those who suffered losses, especially those who were not insured, or underinsured, to get household items and furniture and clothing to people.

@ty

You have crossed a line. A personal attack is not appropriate.

Just a quick comment -- I don't personally care where these ten students are attending college. But I would like to say that when our school (Cold Spring) opened Monday morning to welcome the evacuated, displaced, and homeless families of the neighborhood, our campus was flooded with Westmont students who showed up to volunteer. These Westmont kids are not currently living on campus, nor have their classes resumed. Yet they drove out to our school because we are a part of the same community, and belonging to a community means you help where you see a need. They have been a force on our campus all week, and have been an undeniable example of what community should look like. I for one am tremendously grateful for what these college kids have brought to our neighborhood during a time of need.

http://bridledzeal.wordpress.com/

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plas...

I am STUNNED at the number of people who are actually HOPING that this tragic fire was started by Westmont College students. It is a sad situation, for everyone involved and whatever school is involved, it is still the same careless act.

For some reason, some of you feel that Westmont Students are targets for your rage. I have had NOTHING but positive experiences in dealing with Westmont - not only their students, but their faculty and staff as well. I can't say that I can see anything "liberal" about a community that judges a college that happens to have a Christian base more harshly than any other. Shame on the Santa Barbara community for being so close minded and judgmental.

I have never attended Westmont College, but I refuse to place blame and labels on a school that has done nothing but bend over backwards to be good neighbors to the Montecito community. Calm down and act civilized.

As an alum of Westmont, I have viewed the devastation in Montecito with a heavy heart. Santa Barbara and Westmont continue be a large part of my life and carry great sway on heart and psyche. As news reached me that students started the fire, I held my breath hoping it wasn't Westmont students. It could just as easily have been the case. I recall some of the fool hardy decisions I made as a young man and realize we all carry a sense of collective guilt when something like this happens. Please take a moment to pray for the young people responsible for this fire. They have destroyed something dear to me, but I don't think we want to revel in a state of revenge and retribution. No matter who did this, it is the community that is important and what a great opportunity to express love for your neighbor. I think that is enough typing and, now living in another state, I look forward to seeing what you all do to bring this community back together.

ty...

you wrote "Where are these false rumors and speculation on the Internet that Westmont refers to?"

Uh...If you've followed the postings above you for the past 24 hours, there's no QUESTION as to where they are.

From the get-go...the overall assumption has been that it HAD to be Westmont students.

For my part, I am wondering why (in yesterday's press conference), it WASN'T confirmed that it WASN'T Westmont students who were involved. He knew...and he should have known what the fallout was going to be. It's not like that little bit of information was going to jeopardize his case or anything.

Speculation about the identity of the students notwithstanding, I have been reading the reports from Westmont's web-site. Sadly, the campus was ravaged, along with over 100 elsewhere in Montecito. The college might consider (irrespective of the identity of the firebugs) heavily donating to a fund for others beyond the gates of 955 La Paz Road. The school will be covered by insurance. A small fraction of the recent $75 million donation could jump-start a fund for others and demonstrate to the Montecito community that the pain is indeed shared by all.

Folks are entitled to their own world-view and religion. And I imagine that religion provides comfort in times of peril. But when you read the Westmont site and blogs, the students actually believe that their evangelical God saved the little prayer chapel on campus and conversely, torched assorted homes throughout the hillsides (and toasted a few dogs along the way). Over the years, Westmont has become more of a mega-church and less of an institution of higher learning where ideas and assumptions are challenged. Already, the school has held two post-fire prayer and sing-alongs. Another is planned for re-opening day, December 1st. Led by guitars and emotion, the students will rejoice at what was not lost and determine that it was their God's will to burn out my family.

The lawyers will be busy and the Westmont will return to being an expensive church camp.

Were any Westmont students involved in causing the fire?

No. On Wednesday afternoon at approximately 2:45 p.m., Drew Sugars, the public information officer for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, officially informed the college that no current Westmont students were present nor in anyway involved with this tragic incident.

We have been in regular contact with investigators since the fire and have been providing any information that might be helpful toward determining the exact cause of the fire. This is our responsibility as a community citizen. Our surrounding coastal region is home to many colleges and universities, and like all of them, we are awaiting new information.

It should be noted that at this point, the group of individuals responsible for starting the fire are under the jurisdiction of law enforcement authorities. Again, no current Westmont students were involved with this incident.

See www.westmont.edu for more info.

BTW, my parents mortgaged the house to send me to Westmont, I would never vote for propostion 8, and the few "rich kids" on campus spent their free time with me serving others in local and distant communities.

It seems to me that making the name of the school public would not endanger the "Tea Garden Ten", as they still have anonymity within the student body.

Although it would be embarrassing for whichever school they came from, I think it was a colossal, bone-headed error on the part of the authorities to withhold the information - see how doing so has engendered (sometimes vicious) speculation.

In regard to Prop 8 - the only bearing that I know of here is that, when I was trying to get info on the fire early on, I came across the following:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/21318...
where I read comments from some who thought that (since a chapel had been burned) the culprits were likely raging Prop 8 opponents.

Finally, I hope for Westmont's and the authorities' sakes that the students were not from Westmont - because if they are, the firm assertions that no Westmont students were involved, as published at the Westmont website, are going to create even more heated discussion.

Sorry for the personal joke. Westmont's been unfairly attacked for the past 24 hours and I made an unfair joke against someone that is constantly attacking their plans to expand.

Nobody was "hoping" the students involved came from Westmont.

Probably most of us were hoping it wasn't some teenager we knew (or gave birth to!).

Honestly I was shocked that it was college-aged kids because starting a fire up there is so incredibly stupid.

The Sheriff handled this poorly by giving only pieces of info that painted a very unfortunate circumstantial picture.

So, my gut tells me the young adults were Westmont students. If I am wrong, I will have nothing to apologize for... how can one be expected to apologize for having a feeling?

My suggestion to "punish" those responsible was to garnish any future earnings and to mandate community service in the educational arena. I stand by that suggestion.

Contrary to Henry's assertion that I have a "hatred of anything that has Christ associated w/ it" could not be further from the truth. I am actually a Christian with a very strong faith. Unfortunately, I believe modern day organized religion is polarizing and has little to do with faith (Christianity in particular, has been co-oped by the far right to push forward a political agenda. A majority of evangelicals vote Republican, yet I think it's apparent that if Jesus were alive today, he would be a socialist --if not a communist-- a far cry from the Rebublican ideal).

I feel that many active church members blindly follow "rules" and edicts from their leaders without introspection or comprehension of the issues. There are Christians who believe there is virtue in spitting on or physically/verbally assaulting women who have made the horrific decision to abort a fetus -- now, if every Christian family who votes to outlaw abortion adopted one, or two, or three kids from foster care (actually walking the walk as opposed to just talking the talk) -- then I think the society might be better off. It is not a sacrilege to question. It is not unChristian to expect that individuals treat those different from themselves equally, with respect and courtesy.

With the gift of life comes responsibility. Using Westmont as an example: How are the kids at Westmont learning to be responsible adults if campus leaders are making "rules" for them about opposite-sex dorm visits and alcohol? Why not instill in the student body self-respect and respect for others? Teach them that their body is a temple and then trust them to value what you value. Forcing your will on others is not virtuous.

So - this is now an Anti-Christian, Anti Pro Prop 8 hate fest huh? You people are insne - you champion being peaceful and open minded, but castigate a school that wasn't even involved and has sufferred immensely? Why aren;t you marching on and throwing your stones at the 70% of African American in California that voted for Prop 8...nevermind I guess since 92% of them voted for Obama, right?
SO FAR:
Some young adults made a huge mistake and will pay dearly for it, as did we who lost our homes.
Then some crazies who read the Independent (as do I religiously) are so open minded and so accepting of all religions and beliefs that they take the opportunity of this tragedy to slam Christians and a small local Christian School - that as far I can tell only does good deeds in our community and whose students are way better behaved that SBCC, UCSB or any local HS or Jr. High for that matter.
Just trying to get my history of this tragedy straight and trying to become more "enlightened", "accepting", "loving", generous" and peaceful like you all.
You don't just owe Westmont an apology - you owe the entire town, humanity in general and those of who lost everything we owned an apology. Grow up, get a life and try for week after a tragedy to actually practice what you preach you enlightened, loving, accepting, tolerant ones....
Your more unbelieveable than any young adult leaving who stated this fire. Some of know what school the students all attend - the rest will find out soon, very soon - and I can assure you, it wasn't Westmont.
You people need help!

Incredulous---

It's not your FEELINGS that demand apology...it's your WORDS.

When thoughts or feelings become words, and are expressed to others, an apology is warranted when that expression causes pain...particularly when untrue. In most civilized societies, that is.

Unless, of course, that pain was your intention all along, in which case no apology is to be expected...but don't hide behind the notion that those are just "your feelings" and no apology is warranted. Once you've expressed them, they aren't just feelings, and your message was loud and clear

But then again, those are just MY feelings.

For those of you hell-bent on finding out which school these students attended, you should look to the SB County Sheriff's Office... you pay their salaries, they should answer to you. They have a PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER-- to respond to you, the public. His name and number are posted on the SBSO website: Drew Sugars, 805-681-4100, email: pio@sbsheriff.org.
I emailed him earlier, urged him to read the hateful posts on this site about Westmont, and asked that he defuse the situtation.

How about those apologies now??

Incredulous --

You have an axe to grind for some reason. Easy to be that way when we are all anonymous. I wonder how many people posting comments in this blog have actually lost their homes in the fires. I would honor their words more than these rantings.

To Incredulous--apologizing for having a feeling isn't necessary, but maybe it would be appropriate to apologize for publicizing that opinion in a way that helps create a misplaced climate of anger and blame.

What helps, that's the question I keep coming back to. What helps?

Justreading:

So, I post my real name and street address (no, by the grace of G-d, I did not lose my home), and that changes my opinion how exactly?

My religious beliefs were attacked by Hank/Henry and I defended myself. I am a Christian. It is not faith that I have an issue with and I have no global "axe to grind."

In fact, if my words/opinions/suggestions have caused anyone here to feel "pain," I do apologize. This is a forum to exchange ideas. I was adding my opinions. Of course my intention was not to "hurt" anyone.

So, again, my apologies to those "hurt" by the expression of my opinions. I will refrain from expressing myself on this forum. I believe that my position is clear.

What if our blogging energies were put towards words or deeds of encouragement for the afflicted, or whispered (begged) prayers for Lance and Carla Hoffman, whose very bodies were burned so that Lance's grandfather broke down and wept upon viewing his hulking grandson, tubed and unconscious and burned to the 3rd degree with possibility of lungs singed-?

What if we actually broke out our wallets and loved EXTRAVAGANTLY towards medical offset (and not 'hoping' for an Oprahcheck), even (especially) in the face of many of our own painful losses-?

May our (my) efforts and contributions be healing - may we (I) not give anger and cynicism residence!

The willingness to lash out an instutition (composed of over 1,000 people) which was the biggest clearly identifiable victim of this tragic fire should be a wake up call to both Westmont and the Montecito community. Every healthy human emotion should say - you don't kick somebody when they are down.

These past days I have been overwhelmed by the kindness and good intentions coming from so many in Santa Barbara to those who have experienced loss.

It's not just Westmont students, and it's not just neighbors from the Montecito area, but it's "everyone." We are all in this together as a whole community of Santa Barbara- we all love this place, the whole area- it's all part of one locale.

Let's be thankful that we live in a community that is sensitive to need and responds with care! It's not about who caused a fire- knowing specifically WHO does not draw us constructively together. Instead, let us all acknowledge that this was an accident and move on, continuing in a spirit of love for our neighbors.

If it were you who lost everything, would you be worried about pointing fingers or concerned about housing your family and being able to shower and put on some clean clothes?

Let's help with establishing normalcy for those who've lost it.

It appears SBCC students did in fact cause the fire. I have to agree with those comments that the school must share in the culpability. SBCC does not educate its students, many of whom do not have any experience of venturing into tinder dry areas, with basic fire safety. This is clearly negligent. There are millions and millions in damages here. This may mean the closing of SBCC, unfortunately, to pay for the loss, but as so many here have argued, the guilty must pay.

please take a second and remember being a teenager.... then think about all of the time and money spent informing our kids regarding the perils of drugs, alcohol and smoking....it is now more than evident that the peril of fire in california should be included in that curriculum..let the anger subside and fix the problem...every seventh grader should be taught about the danger of fire here in california and then again in ninth grade. get the message out. i have to admit, when i moved here @ the age of 19 from the east coast, i probably would have made a bonfire too...

hangemhigh - you are so right.

I have wept for the Hoffman's, for those who have no home, no cloths and for a college without classrooms and dorms.

To attack the very people who suffered the most because we disagree with what they believe when they never force anything on us except kindness and help is just sad and so wrong.

I hope we are better than this.

I would have to say that most of the posts i have read on here are over-sensitive and over-defensive with any mention of Westmont and the possibility that the fire was caused by some of its students. This is a discussion forum and it is about expressing and DISCUSSING our opinions.
This is by no means a witch hunt.
For instance, i am entitled to my opinion that I believe that it was some kids from Westmont who started the Tea Fire and I am pissed off about it. If you cant handle reading this and think that it is insensitive for me to speculate this, get over your own hyper sensitivity. And wait to give your shame-on-you lectures on integrity and apologies until we receive the press release, with FULL details, from the SB Sherrifs Dept.

Mr. GML,

Lets just say that your home burned to the ground on A Street and the police statement says that a family from A Street may have caused the fire. A blog starts with some bloggers calling for the eviction of all who live on A Street, one saying "A Street will pay" . Other bloggers say A Street was just full of rich spoiled idiots and rant about lawsuits against those fools who lived on A Streets and their relatives. In this situation- would you say that those who defend people who live on A Street are hyper-sensitive?

gml, I'll make you a deal. You claim this isn't a witch hunt, and yet you insist that it's Westmont students who started the fire in absence of any evidence. Indeed, you're insisting so in the face of evidence to the contrary. Despite this, you demand to have the right to your opinion, even though your opinion is serving to incite anger against a student body who hasn't been convicted yet. Well, if that's what you insist, then so be it, no one here is going to change your mind. But I believe and insist then that we all have a right to expect a full mea culpa from you should it turn out that Westmont students are absolved in this incident. That only seems fair, doesn't it?

And Lars, should the students turn out to all be from SBCC, we also are fully expecting you to call upon Gov. Schwarzenegger to close down SBCC, sell the land and assets, and give the proceeds to the victims of the fire. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

For the person who suggested that some of the recently donated $75 million be used to jump start some of the rebuilding in the community, if it is alright with the anynomous donor, then it probably will be done.

As for the fact that Westmont students and alums believe that God spared the prayer chapel while allowing the other houses to burn is just plain stupid. Nobody wishes for their professor's houses to burn down. The fact that the prayer chapel was still standing gave hope to the alumni and the students that God was still present. If we believed that it was a good thing God burned down the other houses, then wouldn't it make sense to ask him to protect the houses of our professors and fellow students? Or the alumni in town who lost their homes?

If Westmont is more of a mega religious institution than a school, then I seriously need my money back from there. I could use the money, cause I'm more on the broke side of life than rich. Cause my grandparents co-signed my loans to send me there and I spent a ton of money on books to use in classes. I didn't realize that when I was studying the poetry of T.S. Eliot that I was being brainwashed into attending church more. I spent most Sunday mornings in bed, sleeping in, and a lot of time figuring out which chapels I could miss. It took me a year to actually step foot in a church after leaving Westmont. I must have missed something there.

As for fire education at Westmont. No we don't take a class on it. But we are told in our student handbook that we can't even have candles in our room. Students do get disciplined at Westmont, for things as small as lighting a candle on a birthday cake. But off campus, the school can't hold the student's hand.

It's sad to see such hatred towards a school that has tried it's best to be good neighbors to everyone in Montecito. There has been no proof against Westmont. So we have hours on when guys and girls can be in the same dorm room, shouldn't that be a good thing in today's world of pregnant teenagers? If I was a parent I would be proud of that policy at Westmont. I don't want to know my daughter or son is spending the night with a member of the opposite sex when they should be studying for calculus or something. What's so wrong with wanting to stick to a different standard?

Can we all please act like adults? It's not about what school they went to. It should be about what the community can do to ensure that something of this magnitude can never happen again. If that means instituting fire education classes in high schools and colleges, then so be it. Now is the time for Santa Barbara to show the world that it is strong.

JUST FOR FUN - HERE ARE TWO POST BY MR GLM:

FROM THIS AM:

________________________________________
gml - - - - You have been horribly abusive to Westmont - this what you said:

"Obviously, these were 10 oblivious Westmont students with no regard or knowledge of the community around them. It was not intentional, but the degree of stupidity and negligence is unbelievable and deeply saddening. To me, this terrible event just shows that it is too dangerous to have a bunch of "college kids" living the time of their lives amidst residential neighborhoods and Santa Barbara landmarks. Westmont is, to some degree, responsible." gml

FROM TONIGHT:

"I would have to say that most of the posts i have read on here are over-sensitive and over-defensive with any mention of Westmont and the possibility that the fire was caused by some of its students. This is a discussion forum and it is about expressing and DISCUSSING our opinions.

This is by no means a witch hunt.

For instance, i am entitled to my opinion that I believe that it was some kids from Westmont who started the Tea Fire and I am pissed off about it. If you cant handle reading this and think that it is insensitive for me to speculate this, get over your own hyper sensitivity. And wait to give your shame-on-you lectures on integrity and apologies until we receive the press release, with FULL details, from the SB Sherrifs Dept."

SO GLM WHEN THE SHERIFF CONFIRMS - YOU WILL APOLOGIZE?

I am astounded by many of the ignorant comments posted here today:

"Compassion without a stiff penalty would breed more pyros in the future."
Pyros? Has anyone involved in the investigation said anything indicating the fire was sent intentionally? IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!

"Who are the Tea Garden Ten?"
It has been established that these are ten young adults who believed they had extinguished the fire. Why do they need a label? So you can hunt them down? IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!

"Any "proof from a news source other than Westmont?"
Yes, actually. The Sheriff's department confirmed that THE FIRE WAS NOT CAUSED BY STUDENTS FROM WESTMONT!

"For instance, I am entitled to my opinion that I believe that it was some kids from Westmont who started the Tea Fire and I am pissed off about it."
You may be as angry as you want, but your opinion is faulty. The fact is that THE FIRE WAS NOT CAUSED BY STUDENTS FROM WESTMONT!

I am stunned by the imbeciles who first unjustly accused Westmont (the victim with the most fire damage) the cling to this accusation even after proven false.

I am glad that the fire wasn't caused by Westmont students simply for the reason that so many of you jumped to condemn them and now have to swallow the fact that you are bigots.

My heart goes out to the people responsible for the fire because IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! Do you honestly believe that any threat of legal action or jail would impact them more than their consciences are already making them suffer?

I pity you.

To those responsible for the fire:
Please know that MOST people are not angry with you, just heart broken at the devastation. Many people are praying for you, have forgiven you and are ready to support you and your families with love and understanding during this rough time.

To everyone else:
Now more than ever, we need to stand up and rise above all of this negativity. It will not get us anywhere! There is so much to be done and so much to give to those in need. Instead of focusing on who did this, what school they attend, etc., lets truly be a community and help rebuild all that was lost. It has been said before but I will say it again-when thinking about those responsible, be reminded that they are someone's daughter, son, brother or sister. How would you want others to react to you or your own family if the roles were reversed? I am sure they are feeling enough guilt as it is and will be cared for and charged appropriately; we don't need to fuel the fire.

The logic of God sparing some houses and not others shows how silly religion really is. So this imaginary God gave hope to the students by sparing the cute little chapel? How nice of him. If this is what is being promoted at Camp Westmont, we are in more trouble than just fires. These kids will grow to justify anything and everything as the will of God. Sounds like some of our Taliban pals, only better looking.

I pity the Westmont students on two fronts: Their campus has been badly damaged and professors and students lost their dwellings. The second pity is that they are living in a sing-along delerium with imaginary Jesus floating around. Rational thought has given way to silly religion. It's not silly to them, but it is hardly rational. The college has become a religious instuitution and not a college. How often does the administration talk about advances in academia? It seems to all be about their love of Jesus.

This place is spooky.

Thurston:

You obviously know little about Westmont. I'm sure there are many residents of Montecito thanking God that their home was spared and helping those around them whose home was not. Would you compare them to the Taliban? I suggest you spend a little time at Westmont. They would welcome you with open arms and I guarantee "kool aid" would not be part of the tour. You have a right to believe what you will, but what has Westmont done to make you so bitter?

Thurston, whether you're just goading us or you really believe what you're saying:

When our campus is open in December and classes have resumed, come visit. Sit in on a class. Get to know some of us faculty and students whom you've been characterizing.

No hard feelings here about your comments. I understand where you're coming from. I used to believe some of the same things when I was younger. (A lot younger; sigh.) Even your "spooky" comment made me smile. I shared your attitude back then too. The joy in a place like this is unnerving at first, until you begin to appreciate why it's there.

This is a serious invitation. You can google my name and get my information. Come visit. I'll buy you a coffee. Not lunch, though; I am on a professor's salary. :)

Telford Work

"IT WAS AN ACCIDENT".

Wow. The tea fire was an unintended consequence of INTENTIONALLY starting a bonfire in an area known for extreme fire danger.

This is criminal negligence. Akin to manslaughter for drunk driving. Stupidity without excuse.

Punishment for crimes comitted is a cornerstone of our legal system. If children understand that there are stiff consequences for their illegal actions this helps to deter future crimes.

The sheriff did a disservice by providing vague info that led to speculation about Westmont. The speculation should be understandable given the schools proximity to the fires origin. If IV burned down due to a couch burning that got out of controll I think most of us would speculate that it was a student from UCSB that was responsible.

I believe a fire education film should be funded by the community to be shown at all schools every year. Something along the lines of "red asphalt" that explained the dangers of driving that many of us watched when we learned to drive.

@ Snoofel

You are absolutely correct in all regards, and specifically in regard to the disservice done by the Sheriff in providing the vague reference leading to speculation about Westmont.

The greater disservice...to the entire community (not just Westmont) has been done by those who have used this forum to promote their "Anti-Westmont" sentiments...call them "opinions", call them "dislike", call them "criticism", call them "hate...whatever you will, those sentiments were held by most (if not all) of these people BEFORE the fire.

They've used this "opportunity" to attempt to bring others around to their own viewpoint, and in many cases, have denied that it was their intent, all the while doing exactly that.

This is nothing more than a pathetic exploitation of the "opportunity" provided by these tragic events, and is totally reprehensible.

I'm not suggesting Westmont is responsible for the fire - no matter which school the kids attended.

My point (okay, the Taliban comment was over the top) is that the school has a strange way of rationalizing the law of physics. The little chapel was not spared by God or gods. Simply, it did not burn. Neither did the library, Kerwood Hall, the post office, Van Kampen, the maintenance shed and thousands of other structures in Montecito. Fire may seem random, but air flow, temperature, fuel, winds direction and speed are major factors. Not a supernatural being playing with matches. A responder stated that the survival of the prayer chapel gave "hope of God's presence". Ergo, this same God chose to protect one structure but allow nature to take its course on others? This is folly. If the Westmont God has the power and inclination to direct flames, then the same God is responsible for my burned out family by ommission. I don't blame Westmont (no matter who the kids turn out to be). I don't blame God (I am not angry at an imaginary god any more than I am at voodoo dolls, ghosts or aliens from distant galaxies.

The fire was caused by the laws of physics (assisted by humans) and blown around by high winds in low humidity.

Westmont should concentrate on academia instead of feel-good sing-alongs and prayers to the fire-god. The school would have far more credibility if it shifted its focus to academic pursuits instead of evangelicalism ad nauseum.

By the way, I have donated over $150,000 to the school over the years. I've had breakfast with David Winter. I am one of those extremely wealthy Montecito chaps. I have homes in NYC, Hawaii, Brentwood and a ranch in Idaho.

But the praise-Allah (oops, there I go again) amplified songs, hugfests and rationalization has left me to reconsider my affection for the school. I know the folks at Westmont are fine people. But their religious views are so out of step with reality that I can no longer support the college.

Thurston,

There you've gone and embarrassed yourself again.

It's time for your medicine.

Regards to Lovey and Gilligan.

Thurston,

I was just talking to a colleague a couple of days ago about my own dissatisfaction with claims that "God saved our home" or "God spared the prayer chapel," precisely because (a) it intimidates that God didn't save the homes of fifteen colleagues and hundreds of other owners and renters; (b) natural explanations such as winds, canyons, firefighters, and the like have much more explanatory power, since they fall into a much more discernible pattern; and (c) and we are in no position to discern those kinds of actions unless we have jolly good reasons to do so. I've been allowed to write a piece for our magazine on theological reflections after the fire. It'll make some of the points you've made, but draw different conclusions.

Even so, as I already said on one of these forums, we need to cut one another slack in times of grief and suffering. After a loved one's death, people can say dangerous things just because they're trying to help and don't know how to express their feelings. It's tough to recommend that a grieving person be gracious toward people who say things that hurt, but the alternatives are worse: friendships and families stressed and broken, and grudges borne for years.

The psalms are full of people emoting over good things and bad. Some of them have an edge similar to your comments. Many of them change tone over the course of the psalm, as if the singer's mind is changing midstream. We're all processing this, and it can be bad to overhear someone else's processing. We're overhearing yours just as you've been overhearing others. I'm truly sorry that other people's processing is making things more difficult for you. This is a time of a lot of grief; let's cut one another the slack we so obviously need.

My invitation for you to visit us stands. In fact, why don't you come to a physics course? I can assure you that that department, whose research offices have gone up in smoke (and one of whom lost his house), respects both laws of thermodynamics and doctrines of divine providence. One set reminds us of crucifixion, the other of resurrection.

I'm very sorry about your home, but very glad you're safe.

@ SkyView

The posters who have speculated about what college the students are from is and should be taken as SPECULATION. Now that the Sheriff has confirmed that it was not Westmont students their involvement should obviously no longer be speculated upon.

Your name calling is quite out of line.

Your name calling such as "ignorant" "imbeciles" "bigots" and "pity" for other posters is cause for a moment for self reflection for you.

Below is your post about some of my thoughts:
------------------------------------------------
"Compassion without a stiff penalty would breed more pyros in the future."
Pyros? Has anyone involved in the investigation said anything indicating the fire was sent intentionally? IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!

My heart goes out to the people responsible for the fire because IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! Do you honestly believe that any threat of legal action or jail would impact them more than their consciences are already making them suffer?
---------------------------------------------------------

A pyro is not an arsonist. A pyro is someone who has an obsessive desire to start and watch fires. This term would apply to someone who had a bonfire in the foothills - their desire overran common sense.

Punishment for crimes does provide deterrence. The main point of deterrence is not only to prevent recidivism but to prevent OTHERS from committing the same crime in the future. Parents of the community will always be able to tell their children what happened to the people who started the tea fire. Children and "young adults" may have less desire for a bonfire when they know that their life can be seriously impacted rather than relying on a child's ability to empathize with the loss of others.

The MAJOR PROBLEM that we need to communicate to people is that was NOT just an accident. Having a bonfire in the foothills is CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

The lesson is DO NOT HAVE A BONFIRE in an area of extreme fire danger. The point is not that they failed in putting out the bonfire properly.

I feel as if SkyView does not understand this concept.

I believe in this case, the ignorance is the assertion that this is just "an accident" and deserves no punishment other than the fire starters own guilt.

Yikes, Snoofull, you thought I was name-calling and out-of line?

Have you read any of the previous comments?
Taliban
Stupid
Delirious
Spoiled Brats
Dumb Asses
Idiots
Tea Garden Ten
Firebugs
Mindless Jackasses
Bunch of Rich Kids
A**h*les like you

By your definition, all Boy Scouts and anyone who uses a barbeque (when an indoor oven is available) are Pyros.

Tragedy? Yes. Careless act? Yes. Terrible Mistake? Yes. Malicious Criminal intent? I think not.

See the press reports: "Tea Fire: Cause Of Fire Determined Accidental | KEYT.com News: Nov 18, 2008 Santa Barbara-- Members of the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department say 10 individuals are being held responsible for the Tea Fire."

Guess what? THE FIRE WAS AN ACCIDENT! Do you honestly think for one minute that these young adults would have sat around a bonfire if they had any idea of what was to happen? They did not intend to start a wildfire and THEY ARE BEING HELD RESPONSIBLE. I do believe that they should be held responsible, but being publicly lynched by the likes of you is just vengeance and only serves the quest for blood-lust. Yes, they will face charges and serve a sentence, but trust me, the guilt and remorse that they feel now will have a far greater impact on their lives than any punishment imposed. If you don't believe this, than you have never taken responsibility for any of your own mistakes.

Alas, I still do pity you and all the others posting here seeking revenge...

Through the claims and counterclaims there appears to be a theme and what I believe to be a misunderstanding. I believe those who inadvertently and negligently set this fire should be held accountable for their actions. However, the tone and content of some these posts evoke the image of a town square mob with a public lynching. I would ask that we think of those who committed this act with the same mindset that we would if it was a close relative or friend who made a grevious mistake and consider their best interest as an appropriate punishment is determined. Your mindset of revenge and vengence is understandable, but not a mature or thoughful way of processing this tragedy.

Dear Telford: My apologies to all for being disrespectful. Perhaps a blog on the Independent is hardly the place for theological debates. We suffered only monetary loss (which we can easily replace). Nobody was hurt. One pet. Yes - emotions run high. I hope your physics program gets back on track when school resumes. Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful response.

As I'm reading more about how Westmont is handling the crisis, I may be offering some financial assistance after all. Our home is insured and the stock market doesn't give us much fun anymore. Westmonters seem to handle its critics without a (sometimes warranted) nasty rebuttal.

Thurston

I agree with terrapin99. Very well said, thanks.

Thurston:

I'm not sure if you have actually seen the small prayer chapel at Westmont. It is nearly covered by brush and small trees and most of this landscape burned. To use your belief system, it was highly improbable that it survived. Unlike many structures on campus like the gym, it is mostly constructed of wood including wood tile roofing not concrete. Odds makers wouldn't have given it a chance given its location to the fire, the significant brush located over and beside it, and the materials it was constructed from.

Because someone finds significance in its survival, you cannot logically conclude that they support the destruction of other homes or structures. You may logically disagree with their rationale for its survival, but it is irresponsible to infer intent from this rationale. Your continued ridicule of "emotional" responses to this tragedy are less than rationale. Have you survived a wildfire? Have you been locked in a smoky gym with 800 people with ashes being spewn from the ventilation system all night long with no ability to escape? Have you emerged to find all of your belongings destroyed and your dwelling burned to the ground? If you had, I don't think you would be so harsh or intolerant of others beliefs. Afterall, their not asking you to believe the same way, but, at least one has extended an open invitation to you. I suspect you prefer to continue with assumptions instead of checking it out yourself.

Don't worry about it, Thurston. Seriously.

A lost pet ... I'm so sorry. That really stings.

I'd still like to meet you sometime, perhaps when things are a little more normal. And thanks so much for your support for Westmont in the past. I'm sorry some of our reactions to the fire pained you.

Telford

Hi Thurston,
I am a student body officer at Westmont College, and I would like to extend the same invitation to you to visit our college. Since you seem to be very well-informed, I am sure you already know this, but on Monday Dec. 1st there will be A Service of Hope and Renewal in our gym at 10:30. All parents, students, alumni, and neighbors are invited to come. The community will gather to give thanks that no lives were lost and to comfort and mourn with those whose homes and offices were destroyed. This invitation applies to all affected by the fire.
Also, if you or anyone you know needs extra hands in the coming weeks, you can e-mail studentvolunteer@westmont.edu. We would love to hook you up with students who are willing to help in any way possible. It is the true desire of our hearts to be good neighbors; we love Westmont and view it as our true home, and feel so blessed to be living in a community like Montecito. The least we can do is be contributing members to the rebuilding.
Thanks for your interest in our campus,

Jane

Terrapin99, I appreciate your points, and it would be pretty amazing to emerge from the gym and see the prayer chapel still standing right across the road. "O say can you see, by the dawn's early light, what so proudly we hailed, by the twilight's last gleaming...."

I acknowledge the striking symbolism in a prayer chapel standing untouched in burned out surroundings. It's significant -- it's great -- whether it were coincidental or deliberate. But I don't know how I would be able to tell which it were. To me it actually looks coincidental. I'll just celebrate it with you as a symbol, however it came to be.

Meanwhile, others who are wiped out draw inferences that you and I don't intend, some of them legitimate, and those inferences can be ugly.

And what if the prayer chapel had burned? We'd take that as a symbol too, not of God's unfaithfulness but in some other way that still affirmed our faith. And that could easily have some ugly implications too.

I think this is why the best advice for the friends of people who are grieving is not to say much beyond expressing support. It's hard not to turn into Job's friends when we're just trying to help.

Telford

@ SkyView

Most of the comments you listed were directed at the people responsible for starting the fire. The adjectives you listed are accurate and rightly deserved by the accused. ( Taliban and rich kids notwithstanding) Your name calling was directed at people expressing their opinions, not people having bonfires amongst the chaparral.

I believe that you may not understand what criminal negligence is.

Merely because something was an "accident" does not mean it is not criminal. CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE is not dependent on intent. Criminal negligence is a failure to foresee avoidable dangers by ones actions that a REASONABLE person would have seen.

The accused did not forsee the horrible consequences of their actions. By their lack of foresight they endangered the entire community. Death, serious injuries and about half a billion dollars in property loss are directly due to their criminal negligence.

I have never once stated that there was intent. There is NEGLIGENCE, big difference. One is criminal negligence the other is arson. They intended to have a bonfire but due to not foreseeing the dangers of their actions ,as a reasonable person would have, they are criminally negligent.

As for your statement:
"By your definition, all Boy Scouts and anyone who uses a barbeque (when an indoor oven is available) are Pyros."

That is false. I defined Pyro as "an obsessive desire to light and watch fires." I do not see how that applies to your examples.

In any event, a boy scout would have enough sense not to hop a fence, trespass onto private property and light a bonfire in an area known for extreme fire danger.

The people that started the bonfire in direct contradiction to the common sense of a reasonable person. They are culpable.

I am NOT looking for revenge or retribution. It is not about hurting those that were negligent. I am looking for substantial punishment in order to DETER other future "young adults" from making the same stupid mistakes.

Thinking that the guilt of the accused is punishment enough sends the signal to other children that there are no consequences for illegal bonfires in the foothills.

The lack of punishment would be akin to letting drunk drivers off of manslaughter charges because they felt bad. It is paramount to have increased penalties for crimes that involve carelessness with fire. Cigarettes out the window, campfires, fireworks etc.

The HUGE problem is that there are people that do not understand that ANY CAMPFIRE in the foothills is CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

A major educational campaign must be launched to help educate our community.

I was born and raised in the SB foothills, educated at UCSB and currently a professional in the community. I am quite reasonable and certainly not "ignorant", an "imbecile", a "bigot" and certainly do not deserve your pity.

I find the concept of using prison time to deter crimes that were based upon the immature judgment of young adults who probably had no intent to commit the crime interesting. Since the population of young adults is not a constant, but the level of maturity is constant within a range, do you really believe by severely punishing these young adults for a crime they did not intend to commit will really stop other young adults from committing unintended crimes in the future? I apologize for the long sentence and I really am interested in your thoughts.

I do believe that jail time ( less than a year ), restitution ( garnished wages ), probation and community service are important facets of appropriate punishment.

Children and young adults frequently think in terms of themselves rather than their affects on others. If a group of kids contemplating a fire in the foothills have the fear of all of the above penalties in mind they are likely not to have the fire. The fear of possible guilty feelings has little deterrance.

In the parallel of manslaughter and drunk driving I do believe that the threat of incarceration and the loss of ones drivers license has an effect. Social coersion due to increased awareness of the problem of drunk driving also has had a positive effect.

I firmly believe that a large portion of society needs the threat of personal repercusions to conform to expected community norms.

Laws have legislated penalties for good reason. The fear of harming others is in many cases insufficent to encorage compliance with the law.

The young adults intentionally tresspassed, and intentionally lit an illegal bonfire in a high fire hazard area. They most definately deserve forgiveness but they also deserve to do the time for their criminal negligence.

I'd like to take a moment to admit some things here, in hopes that maybe some of you who are opposed to or are suspicious of Westmont might appreciate my honesty.
I went up to "The Arches" once, although it was a fascinating place, I felt a moral conviction about trespassing and upon realizing that it wasn't a park, it was someone's private property, I never went back in all my four years. I know others who felt the same. So please don't think that most Westmont students are apathetic to private property laws. And I apologize for my first trip up there.
Second, I was terrified that it was Westmont students who had started the fire, and I know that other alums felt the same. We know that our students go up there, and we know it could have been us. And I hope that the current students will now take seriously the consequences of carelessness, as well as reconsider next time they're thinking of trespassing or having an illegal bonfire.
Third, I was a Resident Assistant for two years and I think I could have done a better job of discouraging students from going to the Arches. But, as many have affirmed above, schools cannot directly control choices students make off campus. I do believe, however, that Westmont asks a lot more of its students in terms of character than most schools in America.
I would like to insert part of Westmont's student handbook regarding living in community. Keep in mind that Westmont's students CHOOSE to attend school there, and they willingly sign to follow Westmont's behavioral policies and expectations.
"Community is built upon other-centered practices. It flourishes in a place where love for God and neighbor is cultivated and nurtured. It grows strong when members practice integrity, confession, and forgiveness, attempt to live in reconciled relationships, accept responsibility for their actions and words, and submit to biblical instructions for communal life." The rest of the policy can be found at: http://www.westmont.edu/_student_life/st...
Most Westmont students really do want to live up to this statement, and community including the community around our school is important. But, we do fully admit to our shortcomings, and ask for your compassion when we misrepresent the above mentioned statement. I hope that how Westmont responds through this fire disaster can melt some of the suspicion and ill-will that has been noted in this discussion.
Humbly submitted- Kerry

I see your point and do believe many forms of punishment including jail time may be appropriate. I'm still not convinced it will deter similar fires in the future. I believe drunk driving is not necessarily analogous to this situation. We have reduced drunk driving, but I doubt it has impacted underage drinking and driving to the same extent it has for those of legal age. Most 19 year olds simply don't consider the impact of their actions in the same manner that a 28 year old would. I know my ability to process consequences has changed over time partly due to maturity and simply because I have more to lose; there are many more who count on me to make better decisions.

As with smoking and drinking, I believe education played a much larger role in changing behavior over time. I really hope Westmont views this as a wake up call. A previous post discusses a policy in a handbook. My wife likes to remind me that it has been 20 years since I was in college, but I don't remember being instructed much about fire, practicing fire drills, or being told that the hillsides in Santa Barbara are a tenderbox unlike anything I had experienced in the Northwest. Perhaps this has changed, but this would be a great opportunity to review and update their practices. Afterall, mandatory chapel provides a perfect venue for this kind of education.

Telford: I appreciate your thoughtful comments above and agree with much of it. I think we need to be careful when we evoke the name of God and try to discern his intent. I believe every Westmont student has the right to be "emotional" after this experience. I think they should sing with joy, dance, laugh, hug one another, and most of all celebrate their community. I'm sure this is occurring throught Montecito. After focusing inward, I'm confident they will move outside the campus to help those who lost a lot more. Their beliefs drive them to praise God in times of need (and plenty) as well as take action and help others who are struggling. Doesn't that sound like something we could use more of? I certainly don't find anything sinister about their beliefs and it seems like society is most often complaining about young people for their lack of involvement, caring or concern.

Allister, Samual, gml, jmechy, snoofel, incredulous, Lars, tacechat, ty, bisunami, and PAM VINEGAR - Your comments are DISGRACEFUL! Speaking of hate you seem to have a lot of it! Why are you suddenly quiet???? Are you now asking for SBCC land? Have you heard one word of hatred from Westmont? Thurston is great for coming around. Where are the rest of you?
Please read what sbthree said.

opps! Sorry Allister

Jail is not the answer. The kids who made a dumb mistake can learn from it and will be sued. They will spend 20 years in garnished wages paying for the loss. More likely, however, is that they will file for bankruptcy soon after the judgements are filed. The lesson learned? (Beyond not starting fires on tresspassed property): Hire a good lawyer.

I did appreciate seeing some conversation about the chapel and the cause of its fate. As for emotions, true: it was a harrowing experience, especially for young people.

What is the chapel's history?

Thurston -

I don't think a lawsuit against 10 college students will do much good for the community, unless the total damages end up being under 15 dollars.

I think the best solution would be for them to help in the clean up of the fires. Also maybe to teach others of the importance of fire safety in the area.

There are many others who would do a better job of speaking to the chapel's history. From memory, it was built by Dr. Voskyl in memory of his daughter after she died in a motor vehicle accident while attending Westmont.

For God's sake....these students need to be punished to the full extent of the law.....I want to know if these were local students or some of the many transplants that we do not need in Santa Barbara who have no respect for our beautiful town. There are too many students in SB and it has gotten worse over the years.....this is a very horrendous example of it. I remember when they used to stay in IV until they started to be bussed into town which ruined the downtown nightlife here for everyone. If they were locals they should have known better than to start a bonfire in a dry area or any area for that matter.......if they were out of towners then they need to go back home after they serve their jail time which I hope is a very long time.........stupidity is no excuse to get a slap on the wrist or a fine for ruining people's lives and who have suffered greatly because of these students lack of brains and common sense. Those of you who have posted comments that they shouldn't be harshly punished are completely delusional..........an "accident" is not an excuse. I think their names should be put on the front page of the NewsPress in bold letters.

csc Your ancestors are from where ?

I'm highly disappointed in all the negative and hateful comments towards Westmont and Westmont students on this. We found out it was City College students and not Westmont...and people should be ashamed to jump to conclusions as they did with such hatred. Westmont was a victim in this and I feel deserves an apology for what people have said about their students.
Some of these comments were outright ridiculous...

So true! But I did just see something interesting. I drove past SBCC and there was LARS with a big flag in the ground claiming SBCC land!

I would just like to say to all of you out there..I have been living this tragedy since it has happened, my family and friends that I grew up with just lost everything except for each other, they have nothing!
Have any of you volunteered your time to help these people? Bought food for them? Maybe gone to see if their children have clothes or toys to keep them busy so they might be able to forget what happened as they were thrown in cars watching their houses burn? Offered to help sift through the ashes or clear the rubble. ANYTHING?
Many of these people have lived there 25 years plus and will not be able to rebuild...they are not wealthy, never asked for help and many wont now unless you persist.
If your answer is no, well shame on you...We the people of Santa Barbara should be pulling together and be sure they are not alone. Open your doors to them, it is the holiday season, many have no where to go...but everyone is so busy blaming "The Young Adults" that you are not thinking about the people in need.
Go out and do something nice for them...offer a smile, a hug...that goes a long way.Trust me I know, my heart breaks everytime I speak to my parents their dream is gone....

Redwood, can you tell us more about your parents & others like them who you say will not be able to rebuild? Is this because they had no fire insurance? Or is this due to other kinds of problems i.e the land being unbuildable or ?

Where there is a will there is a way. If you can tell us more, perhaps the community can help these folks to rebuild again. This town if filled with generous philanthropists who may be willing & able to help.

Please help us to understand.

Thurston,

Professor Work is much more eloquent than I can ever hope to be. I'm glad he explained, much better than I had, the feeling of knowing the small prayer chapel was spared.

And thank you for being who you are. Because of your personality, you were able to form a new opinion, because of a rational dialogue. That's hard for so many people to do.

And to those who say that those who aren't native to Santa Barbara and therefore have no respect for the town or the beauty...my one regret is that I didn't get enough pictures of the scenery. I took a lot of pictures, many of the local landscape. I now wish I had taken more. SB was a place I considered paradise.

I met a woman from SF the other day who said her city was the most beautiful city in California. I actually told her that SB was so much more beautiful and SF could never compare. And just think, I live in SB for four years for school before moving back to Houston.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to move back and live there permantely. If only to wake up to the mountains every morning and the nice ocean breeze every day. I love the fact there are no skyscrapers there, unlike Houston.

I told my family that everything seemed to be so suited to the surroundings, it was almost a hidden gem on the coast. They got out there for graduation (I'm a Westmont alum) and were speechless at the beauty. They didn't want to leave.

I will admit though, as a Westmont student, I visited the Arches once. But given the opportunity to go back, I refused. I am from Texas, where we take trespassing very seriously, and I did not want to participate in trekking over a person's property. I know many people who went once and never went back, for the same reasons.

And yes, perhaps all the schools in the area should teach about fire safety. It would make a good investment.

Megan

River,
Thank you, you are so kind for your response. My parents and their friends all had insurance however we do know of at least 3 families whose homes are on the slide and cannot rebuild. We don't know yet if my parents are going to be able to or not or if they even have the energy.
If anyone wants to do something for these folks the best thing to do is volunteer your time to bring sandbags to the people on Conejo Lane and Conejo Rd or to any of the areas that the slides are happening. The people of mountain drive and Coyote as well. They are all going to be in desperate need as soon as the rain starts and until it is over...that would be so graciously appreciated.
As far as building, I guess we will have to wait and see what the city says. I think that if these people want to that they should be able to rebuild, they have all lived there so long it is all they know. As my mom said "I just want to go home" That is the hardest thing right now, knowing I cannot do anything to help her, it really hurts.

Thank you all for your support of all these wonderful people who have made my life richer just by knowing them. I am humbled beyond belief......Redwood

Flash flood warnings...Please help them...here is some information on where to get sandbags...
Sandbags will be available for homeowners and residents from the City of Santa Barbara's Corporate Annex Yard at 401 E Yanonali Street. The yard will be open until 8 p.m. tonight, and from 7:30 a.m. until 3 p.m. the rest of the week, unless other notice is given

Yes indeed, these people who started the fire were unbelievably stupid, but are the products of a society that is dumbing down.

From the look of things it seems that such acts of carelessness will be a growing trend. Our society is dumbing down, and this--like drinking and driving--is just one example of people who just don't get it.

Beavis and Butthead are more than just vulgar cartoon charecters, they are a metaphor for our culture and an example of the feral way in which kids are raised. As the Rolling Stones song 19th Nervous Breakdown says "where you were a child you were treated kind but you were never brought up right".

Too many kids are growing up in a world where there is little connecting between themselves and the civic-minded practices of old.

How do we reverse this trend?

I suppose it is too easy to mock another's religion, but also we become too accepting of mystical hyperbole in the name of tolerence. By the 21st century, I would have hoped that our society had moved beyond elevation of the mythical and rather, embraced advances in science.

There have been and always will be horrors to endure: children will die of cancer, careless people will drive drunk or start bonfires, terrorists will attack Indian hotels and African thugs will chop the hands off 10 year olds. Houses in California will burn or slide down muddy hillsides. Hurricanes will sweep through populated coastlines and tsunami waves will drown young and old.
Good people will die in car accidents and nasty people will live to 95. Some will live out lonely lives and some will suffer from mental anguish. We will all die. Some gently, some not.

If hugging and praising Jesus, Buddah or Mickey Mouse helps folks feel better, I suppose there is little harm done. So go ahead, sing praises to the big-man in the clouds (or Spirit "dwelling within you").

On December 1st, Westmont will have a praise service. I hope they give thanks to the many volunteers who have helped each other and rejoice in community. However, I also hope that do not attribute loss or lack of loss to a diety.

Take a look at Westmont's website and read its doctrinal statements. It has its own cultural jargon. The college is a good neighbor in Montecito and the vast majority of students are genuine and polite. They are also being swaddled in syrupy mix of feel-good religion. Hardly an institution which challenges its students to think.

"Hardly an institution which challenges its students to think." -Thurston-
I think it's safe to say that Thurston's analysis is true of education as a whole. Sad but true. If only educational institutions promoted more debate among the top guns of opposing camps we would then have more critical thinkers in the world.

Are non-Christians admitted to Westmomt, or must all students adhere to the doctrine as outlined? One might ask, "why would someone choose to attend Westmont if his / her believe did not match the college statement of faith?" Good question. Quite likely, mom and dad promoted Westmont and the 17 year old applicant was comfortable with the evangelical mega-church of Southern California. However, when the teen begins to challenge religion and its feel-good huggy culture, is Westmont open to different viewpoints? How much pressure is on a Westmont student who does not or no longer buys into the religious doctrine?