Suicide Barrier Suit Filed

>>>and the current unavailability of state funds that are intended to replace the $1.5 million being diverted away from the Highway 101 project reserve so that the barriers can be built.<<<

What guarantee do we have that the County will ever get this money back?

Indy, your bias was buried a bit better in this article.

Actually it was Friends of the Bridge that filed the lawsuit, not Marc McGinnes.

I would like to know how SBCAG can justify that all the transportation needs already are fully funded in the County, so this dose of new Federal funds instead can be shifted around to pay for a fence atop this bridge.

They can't. That's why they violated the Brown Act and tried to do this funding switch without informing the public.

Friends of the Bridge IS McGinnes - there is no difference. The man is pretty eratic, and has been known to say some pretty insensitive things in his single minded obsession with preventing barriers from being erected.

He snuck a question into the City Council forum tonight knowing that the bridge is outside of the city's jurisdiction. He is a selfish man and is not well. I hope he gets some help before more people die, jumping to their doom from this attractive nuissance.

User profile: bridge_barrier_baloney
Joined: July 23, 2009
Comments posted: 1 (view all)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_...)

What the hell does Armendariz supporting “men and women in uniform” have to do with this project?

In 1982 I walked the length of Cold Spring Bridge, with the intention of killing myself. What saved me that day was not a barrier, but my own lack of ability to jump (or a desire to live buried deep within). however, I came pretty close to it. I am so glad now I did not go through with it. Had there been a barrier, I KNOW I would not even have considered it. What is the value of human life, whether of an individual or any number of them? Many Californians so often seem to me to be far more preoccupied with their wallets than with the welfare of those in their community (I am a native californian, but do not share that ethos!).
Pretty sad. And how much of tax-payers money will be going to pay for all the lawyers Mr McGinnes's actions will require?
This man is aiming for both loss of state funds as well as more human lives.
As for me, the saving of lives is something I have no problem with my share going toward.

Let us not speak ill of a person on a passionate pursuit. Sam Adams was a rabble rouser. Tyrants dispose of dissent by calling them nuts and putting them in the mental wards. A cry in the wilderness does not mean wrong. And, if nuts, so what? Just because a person is crazy does not mean he is stupid.

"The value of a human life" might be what value the owner of that life puts on it, not what value bleeding-heart nanny-state types ascribe to it. One's life does not belong to "society"; it belongs to oneself. If they wanna jump, let 'em. Spend the money on something more beneficial to all.

Marc McGuiness needs to get over himself and give up his "little" crusade. Aesthetics of the bridge - give me a break. There are many bridges, take the Pasadena bridge as an example, that's barrier is so beautiful that I had no idea is was a barrier. I would think that the creative people here in SB can do as nice a job with ours as they did. I cannot get over the people that have no heart and say that we shouldn't try to help someone who is in pain and misery to save their life. Whatever we can do to help the mentally ill to not harm themselves is the right and kind thing to do. Friends of the Bridge? Until you have someone in your family die from that bridge you will not understand the pain that comes from a suicide. You WILL lose your fight and you will cost the taxpayer with your selfish ways. Shame on you!!!

Instead of spending all that money to install the suicide barrier, why not use that money to update mental health facilities? That would be a much better use of tax payer dollars.

I disagree. Get over it - it's going to happen.

Emotions, name calling aside! A brief look at Mr McGinnes's resume will show him as an activist and social watchdog (an important and all too rare breed at all times of history). If the letter of the law is not followed it must be challenged. If public Monies are shifted around at whim it must be questioned. Everyone knows someone (or someone who knows someone) touched by suicide,including myself , but the answer is probably not to barrier every bridge, overpass, waterfall, building window,and bath tub. We cannot ban the sale of all drugs, hand guns, razors and rope? Spend the money where it will have the most effect. Help hotlines, support groups, community support centers etc.

This is not a matter of saving lives versus saving a bridge. It is about the best way to save lives. Those opposed to the barriers see them as ineffective; having a person or two say the barriers would have saved them is not convincing evidence for the barriers. Going around the state and nation putting barriers up on all the bridges will cost billions that could be used to save lives on other highway safety projects and on programs that reach out to those inclined to suicide. Friends of the Bridge has proposed alternative solutions on its website. Marc McGinness has been a leader but there are others of us who believe as firmly that the bridge and its viewshed are inspiring and need to be protected. The ad hominem attacks on him serve no purpose other than discrediting those supporting barriers.

Blah, blah, blah...

I believe there is NO WAY to make a bridge jump-proof. That's the nature of a bridge.
My daughter's K-6 school is losing its full-time librarian due to lack of funds, while SBCAG finds $1.5 million tax dollars for a suicide barrier... so her school life can be that much less educational and her adult life can be that much less beautiful. That's got to be at least 10 years worth of librarian. Where are the priorities?
If the bridge is so inherently dangerous, let's remove it and direct traffic once again past Cold Springs Tavern and down to Paradise Road by the old land route. It's a beautiful drive, and the increased danger of illegal passes and cars over the edge on the windy road are a small price to pay for knowing that no one intent on self-destruction is going to manage it by that particular method today.

Yada, yada, yada...

There's hardly anyone I've spoken to regarding this issue who thinks that the barriers are going to deter someone from committing suicide. True, it will keep them from doing it at that particular site, but they will find another way if they are determined.

McGinnes is not alone in his efforts to stop this project. He is a fighter and represents many of us who cannot or will not commit ourselves to the battle. I've heard it said many times over the years that one letter to a governmental representative can represent 1000 similar voices. I am one of those voices that is not willing to be called crazy or a loner or whatever the many insulting characterizations given to someone waging the good fight.

I have to throw in with southlander, as well as deplore the personal attacks against Marc McGinnes, a colleague and friend of mine. As far as bridge_barrier_baloney's comment that the barrier isn't of concern to the City of Santa Barbara, indeed it is, if funding for Hwy. 101 projects gets diverted to the barrier and then possibly lost, not to mention that many Santa Barbara residents use the bridge. There are better ways to deter and prevent suicides, wherever and however they may occur. The truly sad fact is that all of the attention being drawn to the bridge by the proposed "barrier" may lead to more jumps.

I noticed many posters here who say the barrier won't prevent additional suicides off Cold Spring Bridge. My question is, do we know that for a fact? On foot, I've only been under the bridge and have never walked onto it.

My feeling is this debate could be a lot more focused if we knew the answer to that. If for example we knew that the barrier could prevent, say, 80% of the jumpers because most don't have the physical skills or ability to get around the barrier, then we could have a better debate and see the tradeoffs better.

Another thought, do bridges like Cold Spring become "symbolic" in the sense that they may further motivate a suicide beyond existing circumstances? Perhaps the thought is that by reducing (not necessarily entirely eliminating) the number of suicides there, the bridge becomes less of a symbol and therefore motivates fewer people?

I'm not sure what to think about this issue, but more facts are needed.

EastBeach, most of the evidence indicates a barrier prevents additional suicides. SBCAG was swayed by that evidence. But doubters have pointed out perceived flaws in that evidence.

We're in an eternal `Do guns kill people or do people kill people' sort of loop, and, it goes on forever and ever. Will suicidal people always find a way, or not, and if you leave the bridge unfenced, are you providing an attractive nuisance that induces new suicides?

We all agree that bridge suicides are in general a small fraction of total suicides. But the County spends about $40,000,000/year on all mental health issues, which dwarfs the $100,000/year that this barrier would amount to.

It has been interesting to read the ongoing verbal battle between those in favor of the barrier and those opposed. Those in favor, it seems to me, like to paint those who are opposed as heartless, money-grubbing people who should be ashamed of themselves while also offering up intelligent arguments such as, "Yada, yada, yada..." and "Blah, blah, blah...". (See above.)

We keep being asked what price we put on a human life when that is not the issue at all. The question really is: will this be at all effective? Aren't there myriad other ways to kill oneself? Are we going to put barriers around every cliff, every high building? Are we to put cushions around every tree alongside the road lest a suicidal driver take the opportunity to run into one? Are we going to take all sharp knives and razors away from the citizenry, outlaw gas ovens, sleeping pills, Drano, plastic bags...? We CANNOT prevent every suicide, and taking millions of dollars that could be put to better use (even in ways so as to prevent more suicides and/or accidental deaths) to try to prevent suicide only in one specific place is ludicrous.

Some of the posters above and elsewhere suggest that we "heartless" opponents do not know the pain that suicide causes. Nonsense. I do, as do many others. No, my friend did not jump from a bridge, he shot himself, but had he jumped, I would not be demanding a barrier on one of the millions of high places there are from which to jump.

And if, as you suggest, it all comes down to a different dollar value that you and I place on any human life, might I suggest you take your net worth with you to the bridge, wait for the next jumper, and then offer all your money and possessions to him in an effort to keep him from jumping. If you would not do this, does that mean you don't "value" a human life?

There's word that someone might have dove today..I'm still aganist the barrier..And I almost jumped off the Granda building in 1980 if it wasn't for a fella named Brock who was bigger than I and grabbed me as I attempted to fly out a window..He pulled me back in.

I'd bet that many more people have been seriously injured or killed hitting the wildlife on 154 than have jumped off that bridge. If someone wants to commit suicide, they have almost unlimited options; putting a barrier on the bridge is a meaningless, empty gesture. A lot of wildlife crosses that highway; anyone who drives it regularly can see the blood and guts of the dead wildlife daily, including deer, bear, and mountain lions. What we don't see are the numbers on how many people are injured or killed from those wildlife encounters. Nor do we see the combined costs of related medical care, vehicle damage, and highway cleanup. How about a couple of strategically placed, deer-sized wildlife corridors under the highway?

Mark M/ is not alone; I am also Friend of the Bridge.
My mother committed suicide with a plastic bag, choosing to end her emphysema.
I encourage all of you mortally concerned with suicide prevention to lobby for the use of traffic safety funds to eliminate plastic bags [ and cigarettes ].
For myself, I will continue to encourage traffic safety funds to minimize the slaughter of innocents by improving road conditions and minimizing alcohol drunk [ and phone use drunk] drivers. And I will continue to consider my mothers choice as her personal choice and as an exercise of her personal liberty.

It is good to see so much debate about this issue. In one way or another, we can all learn something from other people's point of view. As the one who mentioned walking that bridge, with the intention of crossing over the side, to those who talk about all the other methods available for those who feel so much pain (physical or mental) that they want to die so forget that bridge, I tried those other options, too. Thanks to a policeman named Gonzalez, I did not die from the razor blade I turned to after walking Cold Spring Bridge. So. Spend money on mental health facilities (all my stay in the ward after a thwarted suicide attempt achieved was meeting a man who told me how to 'do it' properly), traffic calming, schools, hospitals... I guess from this vantage it no longer matters. But having lived another 25 years since walking Cold Spring Bridge, having producing two lovely and talented children, and learning what it is to serve my community and help other people, I can only re-iterate that EVERY way in which we can identify a way to save a life is, ultimately, what helps us to remember that we are, before anything else, alive.

Hey Jenn, I appreciate your post. You've motivated me to look into this some more. And I've discovered some really interesting info that runs counter to what others have said here.

First, let me say I haven't made up my mind on this issue. But I've been looking for facts to make an informed opinion. I decided to focus on the one issue of barrier effectiveness.

Other posters here claim that a barrier on Cold Spring Bridge (or generally, on any local "suicide bridge") won't help because a prospective jumper will just find some other way to commit suicide. That didn't seem very obvious to me and I wondered whether that could really be true.

After some Googling, I found that psychologists say that when a suicide barrier is installed, it is *not* true that most prospective or failed jump attempters will find another way to commit suicide. This apparently has to do with the fascinating psychology of those attempting suicide. Some of it is related to impulsiveness. Some of it is related to the transient nature of suicidal tendencies. Some of it is related to one-track thinking. This article published in 2008 summarizes a lot of what I read:

http://www.psychologylounge.com/2008/08/...

One of the more interesting studies was of 515 suicidal jumpers who were prevented from jumping the Golden Gate Bridge. Of those survivors, only 6% went on to commit suicide.

Another often-cited study focused on the Ellington and Taft bridges. Both span Rock Creek in Washington DC. Five years after a barrier was installed on the Ellington bridge, but not the nearby Taft bridge, suicide rates dropped by 50% in DC and rates at the Taft bridge stayed about the same. Lots of other interesting info in that article.

Anyways, it looks like sevendolphins was right, barriers can be effective in preventing suicides. That is one less unknown for me. Now I'm tempted tp think of this problem as more of an issue of how best to allocate public funds.

I should have made clear that the 50% drop in DC suicide rates after barriers were installed on the Ellington bridge corresponds to how many suicides were being committed on the Ellington.

EastBeach, be aware that bridge barrier advocates have a long history of deliberately misinterpreting the scientific evidence to try to sell bridge barriers to the public. The short story is there is no scientific evidence that barriers save lives. Check this out:

http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/faculty/glasg...

See especially the February 5th summary of existing research.

In an effort to save us from the inevitable sevendolphins cut and paste response. here is a letter from some suicide prevention advocates trying to spin their way into arguing that barriers work:

http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/faculty/glasg...

and here are all the reasons that letter is wrong:

http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/faculty/glasg...

Bottom line: there is no scientific proof that barriers work. Now can we PLEASE just accept reality and move on?

There's some good discussion here (apart for the yada yada, blah blah comments, which are useless and insulting.)

I made this point over on Edhat and I'll risk repetition to repeat it here: Those agains the barrier seem to claim cost or nanny-state-ism as their arguments. Regarding costs, one has to consider the very real costs associated with first responders and body recovery as well.

It's not a simple argument. As for the over-safeizing of the state, I have to say that I agree....to a point. While it's true that the bridge is a destination spot for jumpers, handguns kill more male suicides and pills more female suicides than bridge jumpers, so it makes sense to think the bridge is being targeted and where do you stop?

However, what I've noticed as I read some of the comments on this issue on various local sites is that there is so much fippant commentary and heartlessness about depression, mental illness and suicide in general that one has to wonder where the motivation against this is really coming from; desire to be fair and not over protect ourselves or just plain misunderstanding. I haven't made up my mind yet about what the best thing I think is in this situation, but I tend to think that if this can save lives, and we look logically at all the money wasted on lesser causes, it's faily cheap.

Kratatoa, Glasgow, McGinnes do have a point... the evidence is not conclusive. But it is, to most people, persuasive.

The degree of antipathy that those guys display toward anyone who disagrees with them is pretty astonishing, however. Glasgow calls anyone who disagrees with him `delusional'; McGinnes does street theater portraying Caltrans as an absent-minded money dropper, calls them `the nanny state in drag', and shouts at SBCAG officials outside of public comment. Kratatoa says those who disagree with him are `deliberately misrepresenting the scientific evidence.'

I'm not comfortable with guys like that deciding on public policy, although, of course, there is a small chance that they are correct.

But shouldn't we err on the side of saving lives?

As for the money arguments, I don't think the barrier is improportionate relative to other mental health expenditures. But probably the most efficient deployment of resources to save lives would be in better preventive medicine in our health care system... Cuba has done well in that game... but it is darn hard to do so in the US. People have been trying for years; the degree of difficulty is just so high. I'd rather take the bird in the hand, that is, build the barrier, instead of pissing away the money on pie in the sky.

To the comment "shouldn't we err on the side of saving lives", I say "no, not necessarily". I truly believe that one's life should be one's own and that the assumption that only a mentally ill person would commit suicide is rather presumptious. In any case building an ugly bridge barrier in a county consumed with its own sense of beauty when the city, county, and state are virtually bankrupt is a truly schizophrenic act.

I think most bridge-jumpers are in some kind of mental crisis, and aren't thinking clearly.

A number of Golden Gate Bridge jump survivors say so.

There have been suicides where they take care of all paperwork, choose to die in a coffin wearing a diaper in a body bag. That does seem closer to a choice and further from a mental crisis to me, in distinction to a bridge jump.

Hey East Beach - Thank you for letting me know that you took a further look at the issue... gives me hope for my fellow SB-ers! Best, JR

In this issue, the only act of imbecility is being stilted by Marc McGinnes.

When money matters more than lives.
When aesthetics matter more than compassion.
When the guise of structural beauty and the squandering of resources blankets common humanity.

May a thousand ravenous woodpeckers bring you down to size, sir.