13-Year-Old Stabbed in Gang Fight

I know some of your readers will now jump to the conclusion that some particular ethnic group was responsible for this serious incident. However, before jumping to those conclusions wait for the facts.....then jump to your conclusions.

http://www.independent.com/users/Noletam...
Read Noletaman's March 7, 7:07 PM post to see how tolerant and accepting he is of all types of people.

Isn't this "participation in a street gang" charge a bit like "hate crimes"? If someone stabs someone, why should it matter if the crime was motivated by gang loyalty, or demagraphical polemics? If someone sticks a knife in me I'm going to feel just the same no matter what the driving factor behind the crime.

Wow...that is some commentary Noletaman made on March 7, 7:07 PM. Referring to people as "morons", "yahoos", "mutants" and "demented" because they live somewhere other than SB and don't vote as he does.

Nice! What a great case for "tolerant", PC South County and its lifestyle. Good job!

Here's my take on this latest stabbing; if one person attacks another, that's wrong. I don't care where they are from, I don't care if there's a gang issue afoot, and I don't care if the victim is a cop, or a mommy, gay, a nonwhite person, or some other "special" member of a protected group given more value than the rest of society.

What I care about is this: you don't attack and harm other people. It doesn't matter who they are. And if you do, you pay the price.

Santa Barbara needs more cops. Everybody (especially rich folks) should donate bug bucks to a fund that would literally line the streets with them.

With a fund of say, five million bucks annually, we could hire a small army of new cops. I'd even happily pay a tax increase if I knew the money was going directly to hiring more cops.

These criminals we are discussing are CHILDREN for God's sake. Who are they copying and where do they get their role models? Largely they must emulate and represent their environment, which would comprise of older siblings, gang members and impotent parents. They are initiating themselves into the gang world and obviously none of the youth programs, pep talks etc, are getting to them. Clearly over the years gang activities in this community have been allowed to strengthen, and we now need more personnel to fight the problem.

How many of these children are we going to lose before the city wakes up and figures out we need to offer them something better to do. This city is a black hole for those from 13 to 16. Don't start in on hiking and going to the beach. We need some serious ideas and diversions. Yes, I know, it's the parent's responsibility. But, c'mon. In this economy, it's time for the city to step up and help. More cops ain't gonna do it. We need something for these kids to do. Obviously, the things we currently offer are not what they want. So, let's come up with something they do want. And, the Twelve25 (?) Teen center in on the WESTside. Don't argue with me. I work with these kids and that's what they tell me. It is too ingrained in their head to refute that opinion. Let's stop the blame, let's stop the police harassment, (I see the police stopping, talking to, writing up, and forcing young kids to the ground on the East side all of the time) and let's work together to save these kids before it is too late.
These kids are the future of this city. Don't write them off as illegals or bad kids. They are bored kids. "Idle hands are the ..." Remember that from Catechism. Lets not just fight the problem. Lets start to find a solution. "A pound of..." comes to mind.

Maybe the bored kids could visit the library and do their homework, so they won't need affirmative action later on.

So now it has become the responsibility of the community to entertain and discipline these children and not the parent's? Clearly something is very seriously wrong. Bored? Something to do? Don't write them off as bad kids? What are we supposed to do? Pat them on the back and give them a cookie for sticking knives into each other? Don't mention the beach or hiking? For heaven's sakes these activities are free! My kids spent their lives on the beaches and the mountains. Swimming, surfing, picnic lunches. They loved the freedom. They hiked, explored, and came home exhausted and happy. They studied and went to school when were supposed to, and played when they could. That's called discipline and it comes from the parents. Don't blame the economy. At thirteen and younger kids used to have jobs. Sadly the paper boy on his bike has vanished. My son started his route at 10 1/2 and worked it until he was 14, when he got a jobs at a bicycle store, a bus boy and Pizza place. However, gardening for the neighbours, running errands and so forth would give these active young people a feeling of responsibility and self worth. What a mess this town has become over the years, poisoned by unwelcome elements. A sad mockery to the families of diverse heritage who side by side grew up here peacefully for generations.

Yes, it has become the responsibility of this community to our youth alternatives. I am glad your kids enjoyed the outdoors; something you probably instilled in them. New times call for new responses. I agree with you completely, this town has been poisoned. Let's try to rebuild it. Together, we can.

SOP obviously isn't working. We need a real change of approach.

This delinquent contingent needs to be engaged realistically by the schools. (And no, I'm not defining that group by ethnicity.) More trades training for idle hands! More PE! Not all kids are college prospects. Testosterone poisoning and a low IQ amount to Special Needs. Society wins. WWDWD? Cesar Millan always says Exercise, discipline and affection! (Now, now... we're all mammals, and that includes kids who call eachother "dog.")

Also, criminal justice should not amount to Crime School.

Institutional inertia is the real enemy. What I mean is that basic processes don't change, not that the schools and police aren't trying.

Look at what Joe Arpaio did to the re-offense rate in Arizona. Just by changing basic approaches. Of course, here in California criminals are an oppressed group, but maybe the Governator could use new, aggressive programs to deflect attention away from the state's fiscal problems.

Nagging our lawmakers with specific suggestions is the way to go, and right now would be a good time. (Not trying to preach here, just suggesting a non-futile activity!)

Dear Holly,
I thought I was being rather charitable actually. The truth is, obviously, that there are very fine folks in the North County and total jerks in the South County. Clearly my sardonic sense of humor and political commentary is not to your liking, however, you always know where I stand on an issue and I do not judge people based on their race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual preference. Geography, however, is fair game.
As for this issue, the stabbing, it is the jumpers to conclusions I am pillorying, and they will jump for sure. At any event why waste your valuable time criticizing me, a voice in the wilderness howling at the moon, when you obviously have much more important things to do.

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/web...

I for one recognized Noletaman's sardonic stab at those Inland Empire rebels. There is a *huge* difference between the intramural west coast cultural jabs made when people debate about secession from the state of California vs. real racial hatred and ethnic intolerance.

Even Barney Brantingham, the columist whose article billclausen and Noletaman responded to, cites the "bogus rivalry" between Southern and Northern California in the 60's. Context is everything.

Ditto to all of the posts above. Also, as for the North/South country rivalry, such is the banal tribalism of landlocked creatures, while we live in that aquatic paradise that drives life.

Wow...three comments were censored here. That is disappointing. There are some people who are allowed to post pretty much whatever they choose, even unto personal attacks and name-calling, because they stay within the lines of Indy-approved political viewpoints...yet others...they get censored and in some cases, completely purged.

I've had some strong discussions with people here, but would be very disappointed if any one of them were censored simply because their stance on an issue ran afoul of the Indy Establishment. There is literally only one individual who posts now and then who I have found truly offensive, but even that person deserves to speak. I don't have to listen...and vice versa.

I am deeply disappointed that the Independent is not in fact, independent. That it in fact seems to be a left-leaning version of the News-Suppressed, in that anyone with a differing point of view gets censored and purged out of the discussion.

How sad.

Let's see how long this post is allowed to live.

Lars said: "Santa Barbara needs more cops. Everybody (especially rich folks) should donate bug bucks to a fund that would literally line the streets with them.

With a fund of say, five million bucks annually, we could hire a small army of new cops. I'd even happily pay a tax increase if I knew the money was going directly to hiring more cops."

Wow.. you really think that would be a good place to live?? I'm glad you're a minority.

I don't see how increasing the amount of police is going to stop gang fights. The kids will find out where the cops don't hang out and go there. Ya, there will be more places where gang fights won't occur, but when was the last time a gang fight really affected anyone in Santa Barbara who wasn't in a gang? So far the gangs seem to be only hurting themselves.

"That it in fact seems to be a left-leaning version of the News-Suppressed, in that anyone with a differing point of view gets censored and purged out of the discussion ..."
- Holly

Newspapers are of course allowed to have a political stance so long as it is limited to the editorial section. To exercise political bias in other parts of a paper's operations is not generally considered good journalism.

Are you saying political bias was exercised by Indy staff in the 3 censored posts here? Most of us have no idea because we can't see the censored posts. So how do you know, did you see them before they were taken down?

The indy's use policy for comments seems pretty clear and sensible. Some excerpts:

*** You may not post content that degrades others on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual preference, disability, or other classification. Epithets and other language intended to intimidate or to incite violence will not be tolerated.

*** Comments falling outside our guidelines – those including personal attacks and profanity – are not permitted.

*** DO NOT USE ALL CAPITAL LETTERS; THAT IS ONLINE SHOUTING. Use of all caps may result in removal of your comment.

Noletaman: Thank you for providing the link for le bon mot "sardonic". As you know, some of us North County folks are are hindered by our paucity of vocabulary and our vox populi status. Hay que evitar el analfabetismo. Le agradezco por la ayuda.

We should have a contest to suggest a new name for the Independent. How about "The Sustainable Progressive"?

"We should have a contest to suggest a new name for the Independent. How about "The Sustainable Progressive"?"
- revisionist

I've never associated the Indy's name with its editorial stance. I've always assumed the name was chosen because the Indy is an independent source of news and information - you won't find any news from traditional outlets like the AP or Reuters in its content. In fact, editor and co-founder Marianne Partridge notes here that the Indy is not part of a huge corporate news media organization:

http://www.santabarbaralive.com/sbpeople...

In times like this when media conglomeration continues at a rapid pace, the Independent's name is certainly appropriate.

But in case you don't like the Indy's liberal-ish politics, think about something else to complain about. The Indy has never been shy about where it stands and has never, as far as I know, pretended to be anything its not. Partridge has said as much in the above link.

EastBeach: Are you saying that The Independent doesn't allow people to make references to people's gender and race in a negative manner? Are you also saying that personal attacks aren't allowed? Where have you been the last several years?

billclausen: Your question is clearly a rhetorical one as you are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. That's a clever no-no.

Your premise is faulty as well. If you see a driver go unticketed as he/she speeds by a policeman, how do you know whether the cop "allowed" that person to go unticketed (perhaps it was a friend) versus maybe not seeing the driver while preoccupied eating a donut?

So the original question remains, Holly accuses the Indy of unfairly censoring 3 comments. What is the basis for that claim? Where is her proof?

Let's stop the urge to throw around opinions as fact. That will make this a better forum for discussion. As a famous commentator once said, "I don't care what you think, tell me what you know".

http://www.independent.com/news/2007/apr... (From the second paragraph of the preceding Angry Poodle link)

"Maybe the 23-year-old shooter from Virginia Tech — a lost soul named Cho Seung-Hui — flipped his wig when writer Kurt Vonnegut died last week. After all, the shooter was an English major. Vonnegut’s singular talent was making despair funny. Maybe Cho forgot how to laugh. That he turned out to be from South Korea was a great relief to all us white people in the country. Given the indiscriminate and petulant nature of the killing spree, it had White Guy written all over it. And as usual, in other people’s blood. "

East Beach: Do you REALLY think that The Independent would have dared publish an article saying "Given the indiscriminate and petulant nature of the stabbing, it had Mexican gang assault written all over it."

Here is what you said EastBeach: "The indy's use policy for comments seems pretty clear and sensible. Some excerpts:

*** You may not post content that degrades others on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual preference, disability, or other classification."

You also wrote "Are you saying political bias was exercised by Indy staff in the 3 censored posts here? " To that I say that based on what I am about to present, the answer is "yes".

Read the fourth and fifth comments of the following link and tell me with a straight face that the comments are not gratuitous personal, racial, and gender attacks allowed by The Independent. Here is the proof, and you *are* saying (by default) that

http://www.independent.com/news/2007/jul...

Yes EastBeach, there *does* appear to be a bias here, and based on what I've presented, it appears to support Holly's comments.

(from the last post to EastBeach, second to last paragraph) "Here is the proof, and you *are* saying (by default) that The Independent does not allow attacks on a person's race or gender."

Good points loonpt, except where you say that so far the gangs are only hurting themselves. I have heard many accounts of innocent people being killed in drive-by shootings down in the L.A. area, and there was that man who lived on or near Modac Road who was killed in a case of mistaken identity a few years back.

Loonpt...thanks for the sensible commentary. I too though, must take issue with one small thing: the gangs DO affect everyone around them. Can you imagine what it is like to live in those neighborhoods? To try and raise a family there? Go to and from work and school? Or to have to grow up there?

I don't even want to drive NEAR those areas, let alone take a walk there. Uh-uh. No thanks.

So gang activity definitely does affect us all, like it or not.

As for the rantings of EastBeach, well..jeez...yeah...I DID see those posts before they were censored, and the only sin those people committed was running afoul of the unspoken, unwritten code of "thou shalt not stray too far from approved Indy political viewpoint".

Yes, there are some posts allowed that don't reflect the party line, but only in such numbers and content as to provide fodder for attack by those who tread said party line like good boys and girls.

Indeed, there is a very very restrained form of discourse here, and unwritten rules of sorts that we who are not part of the favored few know we must abide by, lest we find ourselves purged.

Those rules are nowhere near close to the ones you cite.

And.... whether you like it or not, that IS what I KNOW.