Mormons Had Nothing To Do With It

Not to be rude, but that is a total falsehood. I'd suggest that some of you read" Under The Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer or see the movie "The Mormon Proposition" and decide for yourselves.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/k...

I agree with you, Noletaman, but that link is hardly dispositive.

Here's some better explanation of Mormon "scaffolding," and the impact of Mormon direct and indirect campaigns, and largest contributions for Prop. 8:

http://mormonsfor8.com/?p=258
http://mormonsfor8.com/?p=286
http://mormonsfor8.com/?p=242

Yeah, right---wink-wink. Mormons had EVERYTHING to do with it as all brainwashed sheeple who believe in imaginary deities and precocious farmboys who dig up buried treasure that purports to tell the silly fairytale of a civilization here in America that has never been scientifically or archeologically supported in any way, unless a Mormon was sifting the evidence with a seerstone and a sucker willing to believe whatever came out of the south end of his hat.

The Mormons are simply and morally on the wrong side of the gay/lesbian marriage issue and always will be. The deluded never have room for singular or open thought. Never.

Everyone knows LDS (and most silly churches) compel their members to conform to rigid theosophies. Sorry, DOn, but this braindoosh simply won't flush.

Saying Mormon's had nothing to do with it when they heavily influenced their pulpit to vote and convince their neighbors to vote and DONATE, while linking to official campaign propaganda on the official LDS.org website based in Salt Lake City, UT is ridiculous.

Mormon's only make up 2% of the population in the state of California while something like 50% or more of funding for Yes on 8 came from members of LDS.

If half of the advertising is being funded by members of LDS, does that remove them from blame?

http://blogabarbara.blogspot.com/2008...

http://blogabarbara.blogspot.com/2008...

Oh, and to directly correct the letter writer, Don Ormsby, this summer the LDS paid a fine for their CONTRIBUTIONS TO PROP 8, which were illegally reported late:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70...

Their contributions were $189,903.58, a relatively small amount, but not "no monetary contributions."

Individual Mormons certainly has a disproportionate impact, however. I don't know why Mormons are trying to run away from those easily provable facts. Another explanatory source:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12218...

From your link, Don:

"Were Church members told how much to contribute to the effort?

Church headquarters did not pass down individual contribution goals to members. In some cases local Church leaders may have asked members to contribute a specific amount."

"Did the Church use its facilities or donation processing system to collect money destined for the "Yes on 8" campaign?

No. Members wishing to donate were told explicitly that if they chose to donate, the donations had to be made directly to the "ProtectMarriage" organization. "

Jack Kevorkian had a similar thing going.

The Mormon religion is hockus-pockus of the most ordinary sort. Just another gimmick thought up by a power-hungry "prophet" for controlling people. It stands as proof of our lack of intellectual development that we produce these farces on a regular basis.

"LDS people are, for the most part, better educated and better informed than most." Thanks for clearing that up, Don.

Don Ormsby's people are from the planet Kolob; from a different reality. People from the great mother planet earth know the truth. And prop h8te supporter and Council Member Dale Francisco thought yes meant I do. Errright.

"LDS people are, for the most part, better educated and better informed than most."
- Don Ormsby

That would explain the high illiteracy rate in rural Utah.

For being such "progressive liberals" everyone here is sure ignorant...

ucsbstudent, where did you get the idea everyone who supports gay marriage is a "progressive liberal"? Just for starters, the legal case is being led by Ted Olson, a conservative whose arguments before the Supreme Court got George Bush appointed President. And of what is everyone here ignorant? You need to shown a little more intelligence if you expect grownups to take you seriously.

I wonder if comments vilifying a particular religion with the vicious tone above would be tolerated by Progressives if they were directed against Muslims?

(Personally, I'm for gay marriage and am an atheist, but the hypocrisy of SB progressives stinks.)

If a major Muslim group with the same political clout as the Mormons helped to organize an attack on gay marriage, the statements in this thread would be exactly as they are now.

Stop being offended by imaginary opinions from imaginary enemies.

So you're angry with the Mormons, and posting derogatory comments about them. Yet blacks overwhelmingly supported Proposition 8. Why aren't you posting derogatory comments about black people?

The comments are directed at the letter writer's perceived distortion of the role of the LDS. Hence the focus on the LDS.

Like Revisionist, stop looking for fights with people based on the imaginary motives you assign them.

And my reply to Revisionist should be clarified to read:

If a major Muslim group with the same political clout as the Mormons helped to organize an attack on gay marriage, the statements in this thread would be exactly as they are now, except directed at that Muslim group.

Stop being offended by imaginary opinions from imaginary enemies.

I think they're pissed about the polygamy laws.

revisionist nailed it. The "progressives" around here are raging hypocrites, willing to indulge in bigotry against people they don't like even as they sanctimoniously lecture us on tolerance.

Notice how they scatter like cockroaches when I start asking questions about groups they like who also voted for Proposition 8? LOL!

Further imperious demands that his enemies fulfill Pinatubo's fantasies by playing the role he imagines for them in his paranoid games. It must get in the way of your fevered midnight dreams to have all those cockroaches under your skin.

The headline, and the main disposition of this opinion has been shown as entirely false. Enough said. Really, is there anything else that needs to be said?

"Denial aint just a river in Egypt" Don

"If a major Muslim group with the same political clout as the Mormons helped to organize an attack on"- the World Trade Center and the subsequent loss of life of thousands of people,- "the statements in this thread would be exactly as they are now, except directed at that Muslim group...unless you were pk and binky among others.

Cognitive dissonance indeed...

sa1, great post. OK, Santa Barbara liberals, prove you aren't hypocrites and mock Islam for the attack on the World Trade Center. Ready ... go!

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of scoundrels. Where would Pinatubo and sa1 be without 9-11? They'd have to go all the way back to Pearl Harbor I suppose.

The Muslims who attacked the World Trade Center were evil bastards. What does that have to do with the subject of this letter?

You mean all the way back to yesterday's headline in Stockholm?
I'm sure 9 years seems like half a lifetime to you E. Probably is.

"those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

A letter about Mormons and gays prompts sa1 and his friends to demand that "progressives" and "liberals" denounce Islam. This isn't about politics or religion, but about a sickness that needs to find enemies and appeasement everywhere.

As I have been asked by my friend Pinatubo to "mock Islam for the attack on the World Trade Center," I will do so gladly, and in unison offer words far more eloquent than my own:

::: ..."I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. "
--- George W. Bush, September 20, 2001

Oh, and black voters who voted for Prop. 8 cast a vote for ignorance and hate.

Those are my words.

Thanks binky, but offering reasoned responses to spittle-dripping non sequiturs misses the point of what's going on here. As I said, the fact that a discussion of Mormons and gay marriage has degenerated into a challenge to liberals to demonstrate their disdain of Islam reveals a sickness that feeds on finding enemies and appeasement everywhere.

Actually, my original question was why you are mocking Mormons, when black people voted for Proposition 8 in overwhelming numbers. Shouldn't you be mocking black people too? Or do you practice selective bigotry?

Focusing on the statements made in the letter about Mormons doesn't constitute selective bigotry, it constitutes focusing on the statements made in the letter. Your contempt for liberals is charming but irrelevant.

Awesome.

So anyway, why all this anger directed at the Mormons, when black people voted for Proposition 8 in overwhelming numbers? Shouldn't you be angry with black people too?

Anyway indeed. You carry on as if omitting an indictment of blacks in comments responding to misinformation about Mormon money and influence is evidence of liberal hypocrisy, as opposed to evidence of people keeping focus on the issue actually raised in the letter, something your need to nourish your contempt makes it impossible for you to understand.

Sweet.

So anyway, why all this anger directed at the Mormons, when black people voted for Proposition 8 in overwhelming numbers? Shouldn't you be angry with black people too?

Obviously Pinatubo you must have an issue with black people, for you seem willfully ignorant to comprehend that being Black is just one's skin color whereas Mormonism is a theology, a belief system. Evidently you can't get past the skin-deep.

Rad.

So anyway, why all this anger directed at the Mormons, when black people voted for Proposition 8 in overwhelming numbers? Shouldn't you be angry with black people too?

Every single one of Pinatubo's records is broken.

38 posts and nobody dares to answer my question. That's got to be another broken record.

LOL. Liberal hypocrites.

Sorry you can only see skin deep Mormonism is a much narrowly defined world view than the term "Liberals" who encompass a much bigger tent.

As it is for Mormons, religion plays a disproportionate role for many blacks.Surely therein lies some explanation for the voting results Pinheado refers to .
As an impressionable youth I was taught in church that "mortal sins" such as homosexuality would result in an afterlife spent burning , screaming in agony , in a fiery cavern deep down in the bowels of the earth - but that "Jesus loves you." Huh ? Fortunately I have grown and learned not to worry too much about who is loving whom.

geeber, that explanation only works if you're willing to argue that religion doesn't play a disproportionate role for Latinos.

Pinatubo, may I submit these stats again so you can craft your responses accurately:

A quick peek at an October 2010 survey from Pew shows:

::: Religion and Views of Gay Marriage :::
White Evangelicals -- 20% favor, 74% oppose
All Protestants -- 31% favor, 59% oppose
Black Protestants -- 28% favor, 62% oppose

::: Race and attitudes toward Gay Marriage :::
White, non-hispanic -- 44% favor, 46% oppose
Black, non-hispanic -- 30% favor, 59% oppose
Hispanic -- 41% favor, 49% oppose

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1755/poll...

And then I report the money quote form that study:

>>"Notably, the gender, age and education differences among the general public are mirrored among whites and blacks; however, there is far less support among all subgroups of blacks."<<

So gender, age, and education don't explain the difference, and religion only explains the difference if you want to argue that Hispanics are less religious than blacks.

People's civil and social rights are what is of importance in this discussion. I'm sure most people supported the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII; would it get the same margin of support today? Doubtful. The opposition to equal rights of same sex couples to marry is also a right, but its a right that stops being relevant outside the holder of that opinion's personal life. Maybe we should have a ballot measure preventing members of the same faith from marrying.

Many conservatives supported Prop 8, as being a conservative in the traditional sense is a vote for LESS laws and LESS government intervention in our personal lives - this is where some right-wing and left-wing archetypes actually share ideological ground. The liberals demanding freedom from oppressive government form a chorus with the conservatives demanding less government intervention.

It's the politicos pushing their religion into politics that causes corruption and distortion and enslavement of American people - they bring the shackles of their own taboos to the table and demand that everyone be bound by them, even those that aren't members of their religion, those that don't share the same fears of mass destruction by a greater power due to arbitrary rules in ancient books geared towards spreading the rule book. There are politicians in this country hell-bent on imposing a theocracy.

There are also level-headed individuals on all sides of the political spectrum with the religious freedom of ALL individuals at the core of their philosophy.

Pinatubo, it's trollish to pin political persuasion to this topic. You and those like you deny the power of influence when it's convenient to your cause. Plausible deniability makes you a weasel, not a hero.

Dope.

So anyway, why all this anger directed at the Mormons, when black people voted for Proposition 8 in overwhelming numbers? Shouldn't you be angry with black people too?

Because Mormon theology is directly responsible for the death of Matthew Shepard.

OK, great, but that doesn't answer the question. Black people voted overwhelmingly for Proposition 8. Why aren't you angry with them?

Because their history involves being tortured by white Americans, while Mormon's history involves torturing homosexuals. One of those is more germane to this controversial issue. Prop 8 was not put on the ballot by black Americans, it was put on the ballot by a coalition of churches that included the LDS church - the church admits this, before announcing that they will be spearheading a national brainwashing campaign to influence their pulpit to vote in favor of Prop 8: http://lds501c3.files.wordpress.com/2...

"A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage."

Fear was used to persuade many church goers, including black Americans, to vote for Prop 8. This fear was mass produced by the LDS church. I blame the source of influence, not the individual without accurate context in the voting booth.

So black people voted overwhelmingly for Proposition 8 because they hate white people?

I've already proven that Mormon's had more than nothing to do with enacting Prop 8 into law. What point is it that you are trying to prove?