Suicide Barrier Contract Awarded

So now these people will have to take there business elsewhere. No more unpleasantness.

This is such an American thing to do - well-intentioned but treating everyone like 2 year olds, trying to save people from themselves by removing every conceivable risk factor. It's sad but true that people bent on killing themselves will just find another (albeit less dramatic) way to go and we'll be stuck with an expensive and ugly barrier.

Makes sense to cut mental health services, but spend money on this barrier. Don't address the problem just put a band-aid over it. Good way to save money. What about putting a protective barrier around health clinics now to prevent people from using them, or a protective barrier around Montecito to keep the non-rich away?

Mr. Kettman, what was the SBCAG vote breakdown for the project last year? It would be interesting to know who in our city and county governments voted yes or no on the project.

SBCAG voted unanimously to divert the $1.5 million from the Highway 101 project to cover the costs of the barrier.

They originally did this in secret, but were caught when someone from Friends of the Bridge read an old SBCAG agenda in detail and noticed it mentioned the Cold Spring Bridge. The Indy covered that story here:

http://www.independent.com/news/2009/...

It is not sad but true...If this helps one person rethink things it will be worth it. Suicide forever changes the loved ones who are left behind.

Would you provide a link as to what this barrier will look like, what is the latest iteration?

thks,

I wonder if the barrier will be removed if people still mange to find a way to get around it and kill themselves by jumping off the bridge anyway. I certainly hope they do not but human ingenuity always seems to confound the safety engineers.

Good question, Noletaman. There's nothing on the bridge to keep people from parking their car next to the barrier. Couldn't someone just park next to the barrier and climb over from the roof of their car?

Again the problem is not the barrier, but the people who are intent on killing themselves.

How do we fight this stupid thing?

^^^Ya, how do we fight this???

Absolutely insane that we have to pay for something like this in times like these....

Friends of the Bridge has been fighting this for a couple of years. Check out their website:

http://www.cscbfriends.com/

You should contact them and get on their mailing list, and ask how you can help.

Ugly and a waste of money. How many bleeding hearts does it take to waste millions of dollars of taxpayer money?

You are right Tom that having a loved one commit suicide is tragic, but if someone is intent on ending his or her life, putting an ugly barrier on a scenic bridge will not prevent it.
I would rather see our limited state funds used to make 154 safer for those who are not suicidal.

The data is fairly clear that people stopped by a barrier from jumping off one bridge don't go on to kill themselves another way.

This is a good project and Caltrans is doing the right thing.

Sad to see the usual cruel, heartless, cookie-cutter, repeat-the-party-line nastiposts here. Sad that these Marcs want to lose a few large donations to the EDC.

I resent your name-calling, sevendolphins.
Check out
http://www.cscbfriends.com/
There is hard evidence that there are ways to prevent suicide that do not entail putting up an ugly barrier.
Also, it is a fact that far more deaths occur on 154 due to accidents than to suicide. So if preventing deaths is the goal, make the road safer for motorists. You can't save everybody. Sad, but true.

Rather than an endless standoff about the Cold Spring Barrier, consider redirecting the $18 million in State funds is still programmed for Ekwill and Fowler south of Old Town Goleta:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/transprog/ct...

Where are Ekwill and Fowler, you ask? Good question. That project does nothing for anyone, well, except maybe for the Mayor of Goleta's Airbus business.

sevendolphins reminds me of this guy:

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationm...

Forget it, blackpoodles, you can't have a rational conversation with this guy.

This barrier is like gun control: well intentioned but doesn't strike at the root of the problem.

I think people in an acute crisis who go to the bridge and find a barrier get more time, which allows them to sort out their issues, and so does strike at the root of the problem. The evidence that barriers actually prevent suicides is pretty strong.

The amount of money spent on County health services dwarfs that spent on the bridge barrier, particularly when you account for the 30+ year lifetime of the barrier. County health services has had a lot of internal problems in addition... throwing money at them doesn't seem likely to help save lives.

If $18 million in Caltrans funding is being wasted on Ekwill and Fowler, it is completely rational to discuss that issue, and suggest *that* funding should be used on whatever safety improvements Pinatubo/McGinnes/blackpoodles/sevensnugrats/EDC/Chytilo/eightdolphins/sevendolphins/Garrett Glasgow or whoever might want.

Was there EVER any doubt that regardless of the wishes of the majority, this barrier would be built? Someone, SOMEWHERE is making money off this, pure and simple.

Plus, we live in Nanny Law Ground Zero; social engineering is a way of life here, so something this expensive and ridiculous would fit right in.

Having known three people who have committed suicide, I can say without hesitation that when people are ill or desperate and determined to commit suicide, they will find a way. No amount of nets, barriers, handwringing, nanny laws, crisis lines, love or friendship will stop them.

Should we TRY? Yes. Should we pi** away millions to make ourselves FEEL like we're doing something? No.

But, like everything else here, no matter what makes fiscal sense or what the people want, the emotional blackmailers and professional politicians will ALWAYS get the upper hand.

Until we all FORCE these mouthpieces to shut up and do the job we've HIRED them to do, they will keep pushing their own agendas and doing everything they can to ensure they have a nonstop job-for-life as a professional politician, with fat pay and perks without end, Amen.

So, we'll get the barrier, all the professional politicians and usual suspects will show up to the ribbon cutting, the polite applause, poses and sound bites will make appearances, and they'll all justify their overpaid jobs for the moment.

Meanwhile someone might just decide that since he can't jump off the bridge, maybe he'll just run head-on into the mountain in his car...or worse.

If $18 million in Caltrans funding is being wasted on Ekwill and Fowler, it is completely rational to discuss that issue, and suggest *that* funding should be used on whatever safety improvements Pinatubo/McGinnes/blackpoodles/sevensnugrats/EDC/Chytilo/eightdolphins/sevendolphins/Garrett Glasgow or whoever might want.

Don't forget to add ME onto this list!

I have a great idea along these same lines.

Why not dull all knives, prohibit people from driving, no more medicine, board up all windows.

Wrap everyone in padded outfits.

Idiots....how do they think this is going to stop people from killing themselves?

Ruin a beautiful bridge and for what?

After all, suicide is just another word for nothing left to lose.

I took the time to e:mail all members of SBCAG last night. If enough of us do the same, perhaps it will at least slow them down. Here is the link to the page where all their e-mails are available. http://www.sbcag.org/contact.html

Let's not give up yet. There are alternatives to the barrier, such as call boxes to a suicide helpline, that have been shown to be just as much of a deterrent, without the ugliness.

Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem. It is often a compulsive act. A barrier can provide that split second of rethinking a bad choice.

For those who are deliberate about their choice nothing will stop a bad choice.

Many suicide attempt survivors, such as one who jumped from the San Francisco bridge said on the way down he wished he had not. You can watch this dvd. It is called "The Bridge."

THE BARRIER IS A PUBLIC SAFETY MEASURE

No single mile of highway in all of Santa Barbara County is associated with a higher annual fatality rate than Cold Spring Bridge. [Source: Fatality Analysis Reporting System, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration]

Between 2000 and 2009, the total number of rail fatalities in all of Santa Barbara County was less than the total number of deaths at Cold Spring Bridge in the same period. [Source: Federal Railroad Administration Office of Safety Analysis]

Cold Spring Bridge is a single, public location that has served as a consistent and predictable site of preventable fatalities in Santa Barbara County for five decades.

Allowing deaths to continue at this location when an effective and permanent solution is available is unethical and violates the public safety provision of the state constitution.

Numerous research studies have demonstrated that the installation of barriers significantly reduces or eliminates deaths by jumping at a particular location. There is no scientific evidence that human barriers work. Construction of a physical barrier is the *only* proven method for the prevention of suicide by jumping.

Get the facts. Help stop the tragedy at Cold Spring Bridge. Support the barrier.
http://www.stopthetragedy.org/

[Comments by StoptheTragedy are posted by the administrator of the website www.stopthetragedy.org, who does not post comments on this forum under any other user name or alias.]
---------------------------------------------
Need help? Call 1-800-273-TALK (8255).

Thanks, StoptheTragedy. Discussion of suicide brings out the cruel parts of folks' personalities. At least the anti-barrier folks have stopped suggesting stadium seats and judges for jump style, rating death jumps from 1-10. That used to be a regular post.

Why any of them think their statements about the inevitability of suicide, or their comparisons to padding knives or fencing off parking structures, or their claims about effectiveness of `human barriers', have any scientific backing eludes me.

There is a `speck in the eye' of all the scientific studies that support the barriers; those studies are very strong but naturally, one can find super-complicated scenarios where the studies might be in error.

In contrast, the scientific basis of all the claims of the anti-barrier ideas is much, much weaker, or non-existent. There is a plank in their eye. Nonetheless, with the perfect certainty of fundamentalists, they assert either alternatives to barriers are effective, or that suicidal people will always find a way to die.

I know a number of people who once were suicidal but now are utterly content and happy they didn't do it.

What's next? Fences along every foot of railroad, around every large boulder up in the hills, the end of the wharf, or how about around the courthouse tower?

While I don't understand someone's ability/willingness to take their own life, I do accept the fact that it will happen whether I understand it or not, that ultimately, it's their own decision and a fence (or a bubble, a net, or even a law saying it's not legally allowed) isn't going to prevent those from following through with it.

Thus, I agree that putting up yet another barrier isn't addressing the root of the problem for these people who need/want help. Like others have said, why aren't we focusing on what we can do to help people BEFORE they feel suicide is their last option?

Unfortunately, even if more effective assistance were readily/easily available, I still believe not everyone contemplating suicide will willingly seek the help they need, and this is indeed a very sad situation for everyone - thus a fence on this, or any other bridge is moot.

As someone who has personally participated in a number of body recoveries from this bridge, I can attest to how dangerous this bridge is for emergency personnel. I have seen many scary and dangerous situations arise out of conducting these missions-both for paid and volunteer personnel. While I'm not well versed in the statistics regarding the effectiveness of these barriers, I do believe they could help curtail a significant portion of the suicides. And if this translates into greater safety for our EMS personnel and puts responders at less risk, then I support it.

User profile: urbanchicken
Joined: March 26, 2010
Comments posted: 1 (view all)

Yet another sevendolphins sockpuppet? I'm already laughing at him having a conversation between his sevendolphins and StopTheTragedy accounts.

The easiest way to recognize a sevendolphins account is it will post the same thing over and over and over ...

Everyone should notice that sevendolphins seems to be the only one posting herein that cannot manage to do so without hateful name-calling and anyone familiar with sevendolphins' posts will know that this is typical. The rest seem to be interested in an actual civil and respectful debate - thank you for that.

And to reiterate my position, I think the barrier is ugly and a waste of taxpayer money, esp in these lean times. And I have to wonder How many proponents of the barrier are those who are always on the side of regulating all construction to maintain a beautiful SB?

I think the $18 million planned on Ekwill and Fowler is a much bigger waste of money...

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/transprog/ct...

The barrier will hardly be visible except when traveling on the bridge, and drivers should focus on the road anyway.

Pinatubo,
Was your comment directed to my post? If so, I have no idea who sevendolphins is...the point of my post was that the bridge recoveries pose a significant threat to the people who are called upon to respond-which includes volunteers (as was my case). So, I support something which has the potential to reduce the suicide rate. Obviously, nothing can entirely prevent someone who is determined...Beyond the physical dangers of carrying out these recoveries, they are mentally anguishing to deal with and have a long lasting impact on those of us who carry out this sad task.

JohnLocke, the scariest thing about sevendolphins is his hateful obsession not just with people here online, but with real life people involved in the suicide barrier debate such as Marc McGinnes and Garrett Glasgow. A while ago I asked him point blank if he would ever consider using violence against these people, and he refused to answer the question.

What a waste of money! Instead of spending the money that project; use it for mental health services. People who are intent on killing themselves will find some way to it. There are plenty of other options than just jumping off a bridge you know.

I have never been asked anything point blank by Pinatubo. I would never consider and have never considered using violence against anyone.

Santa Barbara County Mental Health services has serious problems...

http://www.independent.com/news/2010/...

Santa Barbara County Mental Health services, from top to bottom, spends about $40,000,000 to $50,000,000 a year; amortized over its life, the Cold Spring Barrier could cost maybe $50,000 to $100,000 a year. Adding those funds to County Mental Health would do extremely little; maybe just cover some unfunded pension costs of existing employees.

People contemplating suicide and intent on in at one point in time can be dissuaded; I know many who have been dissuaded.

Well, at least now you've finally renounced violence. Hooray!

I agree that using more than one screen name is immoral.

Uh... I have never participated in any violence, so it is impossible for me to renounce it. Violence is abhorrent to me, always was, is, and will be.

Pinatubo has never asked me any question whatsoever with respect to violence, and his rhetorical strategy is sad.

By the way, since safety issues are being raised, I wonder how everyone feels about the fact that because of a new law, wine tasting rooms are allowed to serve unlimited amounts of alcohol?

Yes, the wine tasting crowd showed their hand by getting a law passed that allows wine tasting rooms to get licensed for serving booze. Moreover, some of these rooms are allowed to let their customers bring their children into these rooms while they booze it up. Many of these people will be taking the 154 to get to and from these places.

It seems to me it's only a matter of time before the accident/death rate increases. Meanwhile, not one local politician has--to my knowledge--said one word about THIS.

I think Doreen Farr has said something and held a town meeting about the new wine-tasting rooms. The majority of County wine-tasting rooms say they won't be taking advantage of the change.

http://www.lompocrecord.com/news/loca...

http://www.lompocrecord.com/news/loca...

Pinatubo = Kratatoa

Sevendolphins: being the cynic that I am, I wouldn't trust the booze industry to keep its word about not serving by the glass. (Remember when Lois Capps said she wouldn't seek another term?...how many elections ago was that?)

Also, the fact remains that we have more bars in the Santa Ynez region, the the one article only deals with Los Olivos and not Solvang. (In the latter city, there is at least one bar that serves to people which has a sign on its window saying "pets and kids welcome".

The wine culture is a malignant tumor waiting to explode in the face of public safety and the 154 is at ground zero. If people want to poison their livers and kill brain cells, be my guest, but keep if off the road.

It matters not whether the wine bars are "promising" not to sell unlimited amounts of alcohol for on-site consumption...as billclausen mentions..talk is cheap.

The truth is that they are now allowed to do it, and there is a steady stream of Urban Assault Vehicles now clogging the roads and parking spots here, driven by 20 and 30-somethings who all hop right out and head right into these bars.

Then they drive.

And oh yeah....our other businesses don't see any of these people and their dollars. These people are here to DRINK...not eat aebelskivers or shop at our numerous wonderful stores, nor dine at our nice restaurants.

So in keeping on topic, there are many ways to commit suicide, and though it is usually a lonely pursuit, when drunks drive, often others are dragged along for the ride.

“We can’t prevent every death, everywhere. So why bother?”

Fences along every foot of railroad in Santa Barbara County would have prevented fewer deaths between 2000 and 2009 than a safety barrier at Cold Spring Bridge. This single location is associated with more fatalities than any other mile of highway in the county.

Loss of life at this location is both predictable and preventable. The state has a constitutional obligation to intervene.

“Improved mental health services are a better solution.”

Santa Barbara County spends tens of millions of dollars on mental health services *every year* – more than ten times the one-off cost of installing a barrier.

The best mental health services in the world are ineffective against suicide if it is easier for a depressed person to die than to seek help.

The average survival rate across all methods of suicide is 88% – meaning that the vast majority of attempted suicides fail, and the would-be victims have another opportunity to get the support they need.

A jump from Cold Spring Bridge is 100% lethal.

Give a vulnerable person another chance at life. Help stop the tragedy at Cold Spring Bridge. Support the barrier.
http://www.stopthetragedy.org/

[Comments by StoptheTragedy are posted by the administrator of the website www.stopthetragedy.org, who does not post comments on this forum under any other user name or alias.]
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Need help? Call 1-800-273-TALK (8255).

Two important facts bear consideration by the community at this point in the long history of this case:

First, Friends of the Bridge proposed a superior suicide prevention plan for the bridge 3 years ago, one based on a "human barriers" approach designed by a leading expert on dealing with suicide from bridges. That alternative is described in detail on the Friends' website at This more effective and far less costly approach would preserve the unique grace and beauty for which the bridge is famous, and yet Caltrans rejected it without serious consideration. The failure of Caltrans to adequately consider this and other alternatives to its flawed plan to spend $4 million of taxpayers money to construct 10 foot high steel barriers on the bridge is one of the reasons why Friends is asking the court to set aside Caltrans' decision to move forward without giving the public the opportunity provided by law for full public review and input.

And, while the SBCAG spokesperson quoted in the above story is correct in saying that federal stimulus funds overseers in this case "don’t care what we spend the money on as long as it’s a transportation project," the fact is that the California Transportation Commission declined to assure state funding for the barriers project precisely for the reason that such a project was NOT-- repeat NOT-- a transportation or roadway improvement or traffic safety project.

Friends of the Bridge's attorneys are working to bring the case before the court as soon as possible for hearing and such remedies as the court may see fit to grant, including an injunction, to assure full compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act.

Persons wishing to contribute to the legal fund for this purpose may contact us at bridgefriends@hotmail.com

Marc McGinnes
one of the great many Friends of the Bridge

The Friends' website-- not shown in my previous message-- is at www.cscbfriends.com.

We'll stop the tragedy if you stop the spam.

The scientific evidence that "human barriers" are superior to physical barriers is exceedingly weak, or perhaps, non-existent. This is the plank in the eye of Marc McGinnes; he and others have been quick to point out the specks in the eye of Seiden and other studies that support physical barriers.

On another topic, if it has to be built, why was this contract awarded to a Bay Area contractor? I can't believe there isn't a qualified company in SB County.

You guys ever notice how sevendolphins finds a phrase or insult that he likes, and then posts it every couple of hours?

Today's theme is apparently "planks and specks."

i think seven dolphin's speck in the eye is from the bible, something about a splinter in the eye, jeezus, that sort of thing. nice and fluffy.
as a surviving loved one, my comment is: so one golden gate jumper who survived said he changed his mind on the way down, how many didn't? i say one strike and you're out. it is their right to end.
a friend who also had a parent suicide said he has been through some bad depressions, looked death in the eye, and came out the other end knowing he would never inflict that mess on his daughter.
what is it about bridges? wiki the golden gate for perspective, scroll down to suicide.

Total number of suicide deaths in Santa Barbara county: 42.

Total number of suicides from Cold Springs Bridge in the same period: 1.

Total number of traffic fatalities on 154 in same time period: 4.

Just to put this in perspective.

Yep, sevendolphins is a hatemonger. Does manage to post a civil one now and then but always returns to form. Great examples in the blog debates on the Miramar - sevendolphins absolutely raged at anyone who dared disagree.

BTW, take a ride over the bridge now before it's made ugly. And to whoever it was who posted that one should watch the road instead of the view, I would point out that that is excellent advice for the driver, but I'd prefer that the passengers get to enjoy the view, and not through a hurricane fence or other ugly equivalent.

Obviously I prefer self-determination, including the right to take one's own life, over governmental intrusion.

McGinnes: It's over. You're done. Move along. Nothing to jump from here.

And to the rest of you who droningly claim that people intent on summarily evacuating this particular reality will only find other places to do so, you're correct.

Other places.
Not here.
Not from this bridge.

And your point was what, again?

Sorta like saying why build hospitals and train doctors---people are just gonna die anyway.

Oh, and to the rest of you "beautifiers": I travel over that bridge several times a week ferrying people from all over the world and MOST are not even aware they are on a bridge unless I point it out.

I know, I know---that's the point, you're saying.
No it isn't. The point is quite simple: No more jumpers from the Cold Springs Bridge. They can go to the Golden Gate and take a number like everyone else.

Draxor, the point is that Caltrans is diverting $4 million from highway safety projects that could have saved lives to a project that even you admit is only meant to make suicidal people jump somewhere else.

But thanks for continuing the sevendolphins tradition of being both incredibly insulting and incredibly ill-informed in the same breath.

Funny how there is money to pay for this project yet good 'ol progressive S.B.--replete with its list of celebrities tied to forward-thinking politics--cannot come up with a way to make sure people don't freeze to death in its streets.

By the way, the speck in the eye reference is one of those profound bits of wisdom which of course is going to be ridiculed in our hedonistic self-serving culture.

Interesting that Garrett Glasgow doesn't seem to have published any of his papers on the absence of benefit from bridge barriers in peer-reviewed literature, unlike Seiden and others who published their conclusions that barriers reduce death from suicide in peer-reviewed journals.

If Pinatubo has any peer-reviewed articles that assert `human barriers' do provide a statistically significant reduction in death by suicide, he or she should post links to them here, instead of his or her usual soporific and sophomoric posts.

Oh god, not this again.

OMG! You all sound like a bunch of highschool girls. Can't people have an opinion? My opinion is if someone want to kill him or her self more power to you. Not mine or your place to judge. Natural Selection!!

Oh Pinatubo, just tell us where Garrett Glasgow published his reports in peer-reviewed journals.

I heard one is forthcoming in Nature.

OK eightdolphins, I know you're out there, so I'd like you to tell us how YOU feel about this.

Lovely, post a link to the preprint, Pinatubo.

Oh, yes, your highness. Anything else I can get you? Room service? A foot rub?

You're the only one that cares about this pissing contest. Go look it up yourself.

Garrett Glasgow has no link to a Nature preprint on his web page concerning Cold Spring Bridge:

http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/faculty/gl...

A search on nature.com yields nothing:

http://www.nature.com/search/executeS...

Oh Pinatubo, just tell us where Garrett Glasgow published his reports in peer-reviewed journals. No need to feign servant's exasperation.

Or, is it simply a fact that Garrett Glasgow has never published his work on bridge barriers in a peer-reviewed journal? That seems most likely at this point... I asked Prof. Glasgow 5 months ago, he never responded.

Odd, isn't it... Marc McGinnes refers to Glasgow's work like it is science, but if it ain't published in a peer-reviewed journal, it isn't science.

Sorry, I meant Science, not Nature.

Garrett Glasgow has no link to a Science preprint on his web page concerning Cold Spring Bridge:

http://www.polsci.ucsb.edu/faculty/gl...

A search of the journal Science shows no articles by him, in the time period 1880-present.

No, not the popular magazine Science. I mean the International Journal of Medical Sciences.

Yuk yuk yuk, hardy-har-har, you're just such a cut-up Pinatubo, yuks for the whole family, almost as impressive as William Shatner singing Mr. Tamourine Man.

OK, I've had my fun. Here's the link you need:

http://tinyurl.com/yj4vpl2

I completely agree with what eightdolphins said.

Pretty much sums it up: there is no scientific basis for the claims of Marc McGinnes, Garrett Glasgow, Marc Chytilo, the EDC, Friends of the Bridge, etc, for non-barrier saving of lives at Cold Springs.

Just a bunch of 3rd-grade humor.

I'm one of now 8 people who've stopped donating to the Environmental Defense Center because of McGinnes' and Chytilo's involvement in their lawsuit.

Shocking that the UCSB Political Science department has someone who doesn't publish the basis of his extreme claims.

The case for barriers has very strong scientific basis, backed by a large number of peer-reviewed articles. See

http://www.glendon.org/index.php?page...

and

http://www.stopthetragedy.org/

I was shocked to read that only 50 have jumped from the bridge since 1963. I expected this number to be in the Thousands... whilst it is sad that 50 people lost their lives, that number does not justify the bridge being ruined for everyone else.

mrnntop, believe me, almost everyone agrees with you.

The only people that think this is a good idea are a handful of members of a local new-age healing group (like sevendolphins) and the people that will profit financially from building it.

It is the barrier advocates who have a much stronger scientific case, with strong backing in the scientific literature, such as:

http://www.glendon.org/index.php?page...

It is the anti-barrier folks who dress up in wacky costumes:

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/...

and Marc McGinnes (an anti-barrier) who hangs with the crystal-armed, LSD-drenched solsticers:

http://www.getstockphotos.ca/images/3...

Too bad Marc McGinnes and Marc Chytilo are intent on associating their otherwise good group, the Environmental Defense Center, with a pro-suicide position. Lack of compassion for distressed people is a very odd position for the EDC, I must say.

Instead of a 1.5 million dollar suicide barrier, why don't they simply install a phone. -AB in SB

AB in SB... phones on the Golden Gate Bridge didn't stop suicide there.

Andrew, phones were in fact recommended over barriers for the Cold Spring Bridge by a prominent expert on suicide prevention from bridges. Caltrans ignored him and went for the more expensive barrier option.