We’re Better Off

Friday, October 5, 2012
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Some claim Americans aren’t better off today than they were four years ago. Many do not share that opinion.

1) In the last month of his second term, George W. Bush had the “worst track record for job creation since the government began keeping records.” (The Wall Street Journal).

2) Bush supply side economics “fostered the weakest jobs and income growth in more than six decades.” (Joshua Picker, Center for American Progress).

3) “On every major measurement of income and employment the country lost ground during Bush’s two terms.”(Ronald Brownstein, National Journal).

President Obama, on the other hand, saved more than one million jobs in the auto and related industries (Congressional Budget Office, December 2009). The economy has added 4.6 million jobs during 30 consecutive months of slow, but steady, job growth. He signed the Affordable Care Act, outlawing denial of medical insurance due to pre-existing conditions. And, under his command, Osama bin Laden and many other terrorist leaders have been eliminated.

So, are we better off today? Judge for yourself.


Independent Discussion Guidelines

Better off without that job exporting, fear mongering flim flam man Willard Romney.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 11:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To RB,
America is not better off. Our son's whole department
was just let go, and people are losing jobs all over America.
It was true Obama inherited a bad economy, however he has
been president for nearly 4 years and his bad policies have
not helped. Millions of people are out of work, many have
stopped looking and others can only find part time work.
Today, the over all work force has greatly declined. As far
as the Center for American Progress, it is a far-left group
that has connections with Soros + others.
As far as the auto bailouts, some jobs were saved,
however the taxpayers were taken for a ride and the unions
benefitted. The Detroit News wrote that the Treasury Dept.
estimated the government will lose $25.1 billion on a $85
billion auto bailout, and it might be even worse.
Also, Obamacare was forced upon Americans by the
Democratic Party. Over 60% of Americans don't like it.
The HC law will impose over 25 new taxes on us, some
having nothing to do with HC. Money will be stripped from
seniors, appointed boards will determine who gets treated.
and businesses will not be able to afford HC. The result,
the government will take over HC, just like obama wants.
Finally, the Bush Administration and Panetta put in place
the policies that lead to the capture of bin Laden and drone
strikes. Enhanced interrogation techniques helped find
information that lead to Bin Laden's capture, and Obama
voted against them and stopped these techniques after he
was elected president. It took Obama 3 times to finally OK
Bin Laden's capture according to Navy Seals.
Finally, America is in a lot more danger in the Middle
East because of the rise and growth of al Qaeda. Obama's
weak foreign policies have emboldened terrorists and Iran.
If BO is re-elected, the USA will go into a depression,
our military will be decimated, and the radical Islamists and
Iran will flex their muscles even more.
Unfortunately, if that happens, you and your far-left friends
will continue to live in denial.

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Your advocacy of torture Mr/s. Thorn betray your lack of belief in human rights and lays all your statements to doubt.
What department did your son belong to, waterboarding? And how many times did W. let bin Laden get away? Which country attacked us on 9-11? Actually no country attacked, a religious cult did (Al Qaeda is not Islam.)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We are not better off. With the approval of the National Defense Authorization Act, the 6th Amendment has been effectively nullified. Barack Obama--like Mitt Romney, as well as the majority of the Congress and Senate, supports this.

The overall picture is that we're running up the debt and losing our freedoms, and this is the result of an electorate who criticize the opposing party for its sins while doing little or nothing to clean up their own party.

I realize that most people don't think *they* will ever be hauled off in the middle of the night on trumped-up charges, but the parallels to Germany in the early 30's and Russia c.1916 are too obvious to ignore.

No Mr. Baruch, we are in big trouble, and if you could look past the Republicrat polemic you would see that the role of government is way out of control.

Mitt Romney was halfway right about the 47% who already have their minds made up to vote for Obama in spite of the facts, but he failed to mention that approximately the same amount of the Republican voters are likewise party loyalists who don't think outside the box.

The war on drugs, the bailouts, the endless intervention in other countries' ($1.3 billion to Egypt in Mubarak's last year in office is just one example) and the Patriot Act are examples of how this country has gotten away from the concept of limitations of power being placed on government.

Also, there is that elephant in the living room of all those homeless people all over the country sleeping in the cold. Notice how the word "homeless" doesn't even come up in the presidential debates.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Are homeless people allowed to vote or are they immediately disenfranchised for being impoverished?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Jane, you ignorant..." This letter writer and the resident TP loon used to conduct this dog and pony show in the now-defunct Daily Sound. Maybe they should get together for coffee or something?

zappa (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 8:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@thethorns4 you're bested yet again by the perceptive Mr. Baruch...and you are hopelessly closed mentally, I fear for your sanity you are all so full of fear. Fear: you live in a military democracy and of course you know some of the rest of the world hates what you want all the wonderful Constitutional safeguards only for yourselves and these exceptional Americans.
An e.g., you wrote "It took Obama 3 times to finally OK
Bin Laden's capture according to Navy Seals." Hey, the President got him and it's something Bush couldn't do: why can't you be honest and be glad? Your mind[s] are closed.
Thank you Mr Baruch for this timely statement: we are better off today, and the unemployment rate has dropped to 7.8%, lowest in 44 months....

DrDan (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 8:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@Bill, when you write "how this country has gotten away from the concept of limitations of power being placed on government" there is some resonance...however, in a land with 310 million, rapacious capitalistic robber baron, NRA are so insistent on limitations of power on gov't, this isn't Stalin's Russia or North Korea, Bill. You soundeth the horn so loudly. Social democracy is here to stay.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 8:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To KV,
We ae in favor of human rights, but are also in favor of
our country's survival. Radical Islam is on the rise and
other muslims are intimidated by it. By the way, you
are a mean, heartless person, when you make fun of a
person who loses his job and will face great hardship.
Many companies are firing people today, and liberals like
you choose to make light of the situation.

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 8:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My cruel and heartless response to the Thorn rebuttal would be again to reiterate my question: What department or kind of job? Being as familiar with your writings as I doubt you are mine (to your own folly) what comes one away with from your frequent missives is a constant and pervasive race-baiting and fear mongering, never actually supported by any fact. While concrete issues such as the NDAA, "War on Terror", and the "Drug War" don't seem to exist on your radar, perhaps aluminum isn't up to modern technology- because if you REALLY cared, those topics would be first and foremost.
So tell us? What department where (That employed your son) was eliminated that you feel Obama was responsible for? Is it an embarassing occupation with a potentially embarassing employer like Halleburton or Blackwater? Do tell.
And I bet it really gets your goat that Obama is the ONLY Christian in the race doesn't it?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ms. Thorn: When you torture people you have no credibility world wide. Are you a combat soldier? Would you want to be taken into custody by a country whose people your country is torturing?

How did we get in this mess? As Washington said "beware of foreign entanglements".

DrDan: I realize you think the U.S. could never go the way of Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany, and part of that is based on the fact that your guy is sitting in the oval office, but a look at history and human nature give me great cause for concern. Why else would a law be passed unless those who approve of it intend to use it?

So here we have two people, Ms. Thorn representing the Right, and DrDan representing the Left, who think the erosion of the sixth amendment is no big deal.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 10:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

On one hand she's worried about Smart Meters stealing our vital fluids and on the other hand she's worried not enough people are being waterboarded.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 5, 2012 at 10:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

People who think like the Thorns never stop to ask themselves about their own contributions to our unfortunate predicament. They never question how their votes for Bush led us into UNFUNDED WARS that ballooned our deficit. War debt we are struggling to pay off now , but seems to be all Obama's fault in their narrow view. Very convenient forgetfullness. They never question their rediculous choice of McCain Palin. The same McCain who recklessly sang "bomb , bomb Iran " to the Beach Boy tune Barbra Ann. They never stop to ask why Romney is being advised on foreign policy by many of the same PNAC neocons who pushed us into invading Iraq. Nope , they had nothing to do with any of that crap and it's all Obama's fault. So easy to be so simple.

geeber (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 3:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Our son has worked for over 10 years for a company
that sets up programs + helps people buy health insurance. Now that Obamacare has been OKed by the Supreme Court, people
in his company are being let go. Not only is his company being
downsized, but jobs will be outsourced to India. Once again the
private sector is being hurt. By the way, your message was still
As far as enhanced interrogations, I don't consider
waterboarding torture, and it lead to information that helped
find bin Laden. By the way, to all you far-left Democrats,
how would you stand up to a growing threat of radical
Islamists? Talk to them? They would laugh and plan to
cut your heads off. As far as the world is concerned, most
of the leaders + countries would like to diminish or destroy
America, and Obama is helping them. Maybe you would
like our children to live in a powerless America, but I do
not. Like many of my friends, which include rational Democrats,
we are afraid of the future in America, especially if BO is
re-elected. Our future could be headed toward a depression, as
he wants to continue taxing us + increasing our debt. Further-
more our military will become so weak, our country would be
a sitting duck, as Russia or China could attack us or a nuclear
Iran would target us. You will call us crazy, but what if we are

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@ Ms D. Thorn: "I don't consider waterboarding torture" -- please move to another country where they like torture, Thorn!
"our military will become so weak" -- the USA in its exceptional strength has a yearly military budget that exceed ALL other countries' budgets COMBINED. How much is enough, Ms Thorn? Yet like Mitt you want taxes reduced.
Finally, this "what if we are right?" stuff is literally crazy...what if the moon is blue cheese? what if Buddha is correct and we will all eventually die?
Please see a psychiatrist.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

thethorns4 are typically conservative. Claiming victimization, when they're not. Conservatives are the perpetrators while being dismissive of others and tried and true remedies.

The Obama administrations policies are adding jobs. The previous conservative administration was dropping several hundred thousand jobs each and every month.

So boo hoo about thethorns4 losses. The nation is doing better now. So go try and how some pity for those who lost their jobs previously. You know its not all about thethorns4; ya know.

DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 1:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not to be a contrarian but I would argue that thethorns4 are NOT typical conservatives but the fringe who've managed to hijack the Republican Party.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Don: Do you think giving the government the right to arrest and detain people without trial is a good thing?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 2:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is amazing how everyone labels us. We are only Republicans because they are closest to our views. We could
just as easily be independents. We are concerned about all
people who have lost their jobs, and we know a lot. By the way, the real unemployment is around 11% and millions of people are out of work. Why do you think so many people
are on food stamps, disability and unemployment? Obama
has added some jobs, however most of them are
government + union jobs. He wants to destroy the private
sector and transform ( " go forward") to a socialist nation.
. Finally, we don't believe in playing the victim card. We
believe in hard work, individual freedom + responsibility, unlike Obama who believes in government control + social justice.
. ( communism)

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Obama has added some jobs, however most of them are
government + union jobs."
-- thethorns4

The US Department of Labor says government jobs are just a *** TINY *** fraction of all jobs added in the past 12 months:

The above data isn't broken down by union & non-union jobs ... but I have a hard time imagining most of the new non-government jobs are union-related. Besides, what's wrong with a union job when so many people are out of work?

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hate my family, hate my School, speed limit and the Golden Rule. Hate people who aren't what they seem, more than anything else... American Dream!

American Dream will swallow you hole, bursting at the seam, gonna sweep you away so enjoy it today, tomorrow you'll be... old thus useless.

American Dream!
American Dream!

American Dream, that's OK cause' no one dare give you away.

Hate your God, I hate my job, I hate hypocrites and common slobs, hate people who aren't what they seem more than anything else....American Dream!

Promise me today, I have a Chevrolet, Whitewalls on the side, one Boy, one Girl comfortable lies!

American Dream!
American Dream!

American Dream, that's OK cause' dare give you away...

American Dream!


Stumbling_Distance (anonymous profile)
October 6, 2012 at 7:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The things I detest more than the condition the republican corporate Bush-Cheney administration left this country and planet in is the scapegoating, self-victimization and whining by the people who supported the regime. If you don't like socialism, communism, the government or whatever you want to call it; then don't use roadways, schools, universities, airports, bridges, parks, etc, etc, etc. Finally don't use the internet either. I would suggest using the space program though.

DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
October 7, 2012 at 6:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Others here seem to know thethorns4 but I do not so I come to this discussion without a built in bias. That said, I have never seen so many false assertions bundled into one message since Hector was a pup. My gawd, how do thethorns4 even tie their shoelaces while living in such a fantasy world. Here are some examples:

"America is not better off. Our son's whole department
was just let go ..."
Your son was fired so America is not better off? Really? Can I suggest a Logic 101 course?

"Today, the over all work force has greatly declined"
Factually FALSE.

"... the Center for American Progress, it is a far-left group that has connections with Soros + others"
Ad hominem and poisoning the well. You really need that logic course.

"As far as the auto bailouts, some jobs were saved, however the taxpayers were taken for a ride and the unions benefitted."
Factually FALSE on both counts. And crappy speeling.

"The HC law will impose over 25 new taxes on us ..."
Factually FALSE.

"... Money will be stripped from seniors"
Factually FALSE.

"... appointed boards will determine who gets treated."
Factually FALSE. This is one of the most vicious lies promulgated by the lug nuts on the fringe right. It is just disgusting.

"The result, the government will take over HC ..."
Factually FALSE. In fact, the opposite is true. Big Insurance is the Big Winner.

"Bush Administration and Panetta put in place the policies that lead to the capture of bin Laden ..."
OK, that's it. I quit. My sides are splitting from laughter and I'm crying tears of embarrassment that someone could be so utterly devoid of any connection to reality.

But do let me know, thethorns4, if you'd like me to continue. It's been a long time since I took a tour through Fantasy Land.

SezMe (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 1:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Romney is only out for himself and his cronies.
Bain Capital is a competitor of PBS because it owns Clear Channel Broadcasting, which owns 850 conservative talk radio stations. Mitt also owns Primiere Networks which distributes shows like Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck. So firing PBS isn't just political, it's a financial scam.
And, along the same lines, Mitt's Bain Capital is the owner of one of the largest healthcare providers anywhere, Hospital Corp of America (HCA). So when you get sent to an emergency room because Obamacare bit his dust, you;ll probably wind up in one of his HCA facilities.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bain owns Clear Channel?!

The conservative media machine is getting bigger and bigger:

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

From the above replies, we can see that the left always
attacks anyone who disagrees with them by labeling them,
mocking them or calling them crazy. If the left is doing so
great, why is California in such bad shape? As far as the
recent jobs report, the drop was due to an increase of state
+ government jobs and 600,000 part time jobs. People have
lost their unemployment benefits. Then too, if the president
was such a great leader, why did he bow to foreign leaders,
turn his back on Israel, not give support to the freedom
fighters in Iran, and ignore Ambassadors Stevens' request for
more + continued security in Libya ( special forces)? As
far as HC, there are several taxes coming in it and Obama
+ company made deals with big insurance, especially AARP.
The present administration is all about bigger + more govern
ment. Things are not good in our country.

continued security in Libya,

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We can see from the above thethrons4 post that they will happily label anyone who disagrees with them as left-wing. Make no mistake, all the false accusations against Obama are just an attempt to cloak their own racism and failure in life.
The American Revolution was fought against people like Willard Romney. Is Romney the first person to run for President under a prep school nickname?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To KV,
Most of the people attacking us in the SB
Independent are liberals. Bet you are. Some may be
.. independents or libertarians. Unlike some people
above, we believe in free speech and think it is OK
for everyone to voice their opinions. It reveals who they
. are and how they think. By the way, calling us racist
and unsuccessful reveals who you are. We have been
very successful in everything we have accomplished
and admire people like Allen West, Denzel Washington
and the Lakers. We don't agree with Obama's vision
for America and his policies. ( Big Government + Debt)
And there you go again, mocking people. Childish.

thethorns4 (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 5:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

thethorns4 clearly relish and NEED this attention; witness statements like "most of the people attacking us"...
final message

DrDan (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pau Gasol will be happy to hear he has your support.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

All the people with a clue + I are taking a break as it is clear that tea party loons + others of your ilk are never going to listen to reason + fact. Warped logic + twisted rhetoric = good entertainment value,however. The Indy + its readers look forward to your next fact + intelligence-challenged screed.

zappa (anonymous profile)
October 8, 2012 at 7:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So these Thorn people say they like a few African American entertainers that they see from the safety of their t.v. screen . Somehow in their mindset that proves they cant be the prototypical Tea Party racist types. Never mind that if Denzel Washington ever was face to face with them they would get a serious lesson about the sorry state of race relations . Does anybody doubt for a minute that the Thorns opposed the establishment of MLK Day as a national day of honor? Does anybody doubt that these Thorns feel that Obama is an "uppity , angry black man" ?
This comment of theirs is very telling and exposes the subconscious discrimiation so common within the Tea Party clique.

geeber (anonymous profile)
October 9, 2012 at 4:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Progress. Black on the LCDTV is finally o.k. now but Big Bird is the current underlying problem that ails America.
It was Tinky Wink a few election cycles back.

DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
October 9, 2012 at 6:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess modern "Conservatives" prefer fictional characters as friends and foes over living people.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
October 9, 2012 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

'and the Lakers'......and the jeffersons, huxtables, and at least one of the gumbels...the lighter one.

you thorns are beauts.

lawdy (anonymous profile)
October 9, 2012 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

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