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Wednesday, July 17, 2013
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In 1943 in Mobile, Alabama, a black PFC [private first class] was shot dead by the driver of a bus after he ignored the driver’s order to move back in the bus. The driver was arrested for the shooting but then released some time later, and nothing further came of this incident.

Now the South has made such progress that its legal system will actually go through the motions of trying a white man for shooting a black man. Who knows but that in another 50 or 60 years a young black man may actually get justice.


Independent Discussion Guidelines

What's especially sickening have been the right wing attempts to villify the victim.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 5:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

While I know it's very politically correct to vilify the South, the rage over this issue misses the point. *Why* did Zimmerman *shoot* him? Bear with me please.

I've noticed this is a trend not just in the South, but all over the country. Cops (and in this case, a neighborhood watch/security guard) shooting people and beating them to death and getting away with it. The Kelly Thomas Case in Fullerton, where an unarmed man was beaten to death by cops. The only problem for the cops was, Kelly's father is a retired cop himself. Then there was the case in or near L.A. of the crazy woman (unarmed) who rushed at cops with a shopping cart, and was shot to death.

If one must carry a gun, they should also have non-lethal weapon capability so if they're in a situation where they cannot defend themselves physically, they can take the person down without killing them. Also, if my understanding is correct, he was hired by the homeowners in the area to protect them, so why aren't *they* being called into question?

Putting down the South (because after all, there is NO racism anywhere else in the country, right?) may make people feel good, (as they hide their own predjudices a la good upstanding religious folks who have their clandestine adulturous lives) but it won't prevent more deaths such as Trayvon Martin's from occurring.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For years I lived next door to a couple off kids that were very much like TM - not color wise, attitude wise - they were constantly threatening to come "whoop" my ass. They have no idea how lucky they are that I'm so even tempered - any normal person would've hauled off and broken their necks after a year or two or three, but I put up with their BS for 12 years - all the way till their grandma died and they had to move away. (Aw, tears... sadness... waaah!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How do you know what Trayvon Martin's attitude was? And what would you have your child do if they were all alone and being stalked by a strange man? So you had bad neighbors once, imagine what your neighbors might say about YOU!

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 6:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why doesn't Trayvon Martin have the right to stand HIS ground? Why just the nutjob with the gun?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Just what was that Peruvian's attitude KV? The right has smeared TM in equal portions to the left smearing GZ.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 7:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have the right to watch someone. I also have the right to follow them even if advised not to.

Now, if I'm walking down the street, do I have the right to physically attack some "creepy ass cracker" just because he's acting like a nosey busy body? NO! (And again, I wouldn't want to test my "right" of self defense in a state like Cali - but in a place like Florida, better mind your manners 'cause even a wimp like GZ might be packin' - just sayin'!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 17, 2013 at 7:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How does one smear somebody who stalked and killed a teenager? Equal portions? I get 1, you get 1, I get 2, you get 1..... how ya like them odds? 'cause it wasn't even.

spacey (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Uhhh, this is why you MUST mind your manners in CC state like Florida - If you're unarmed and start a gunfight, it ain't gonna be "even".

As for stalking, GZ saw some kid that reminded him of the sort of kids who'd been burgling the condo development he lived in. One more time, it's within your rights to be nosy and follow people around. Just because someone's "stalking", that doesn't give you the right to "mount them and do ground and pound." And guess what, that nosy guy might be an off duty cop or just someone who happens to carry a gun around - be nice and mind your "ps and qs" - you'll live longer.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow spacey, you too know what happened even though the only eye witness had TM on top of GZ...Why don't you just call in your decision in the future and save the juries some time and money.
Is that what you did in the Tawana Brawley case too?
I do remember you taking to the streets over O.J. getting away with murder as well...

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 6:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I've got to give full marks to spiritwalker--he's found a new variation on the "blame the victim" theme.

First, you find someone whose looks you don't like and decide to follow them. When your target becomes aware of your attentions, and feeling concerned and threatened, tries to defend himself, you simply shoot him. Then YOU claim self-defense.

I guess you don't have to mind your manners in Florida if you're armed. Just sayin'...

SFGiants (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

it's a tragedy all around, and yes, BC, no use smearing the South, OK.
Not many will agree with you spirit when you state "it's within your rights to be nosy and follow people around" -- that's a deadend street.
E.g., then I might say 'hey, you following me around?' and you HAVE BEEN and like GZ, say, you are also armed both mechanically [pistol] and mentally [in a neighborhood watch type thing], and as I move in your direction, you "stand your ground" and I come closer so you pull out your stupid weapon EVEN THOUGH THE DISPATCHER SAID GET IN YOUR CAR AND GO AWAY, PD WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS.
Behind this is the very poor "stand your ground" BS [in 20 states: mostly the South, Bill!] and GZ getting into a vigilante mode and...TM got into it with him.
IMO manslaughter would have been the correct decision, but on another level GZ will be penalized for life by our polarized society. Meanwhile, two parents have lost a son.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

A couple months ago one of my neighbor's dogs started barking in the middle of the night. Here's what happened when I called the non emergency police number:

ME: Hello, there's a dog barking at one of my neighbor's houses - I'm concerned that something might be happening.

Dispatcher: Sir, you need to contact animal control in the morning with your noise complaint.

Me: I'm NOT complaining about noise.

Dispatcher: Sir, please contact animal control - they will help you deal with the barking dog.

Me: I'm NOT complaining about a barking dog - some of my neighbors are nurses and work night shift - maybe there's a burglary. Or, maybe there's some other crime in progress - I don't want to have to explain to anyone why I sat here all night listening to a barking dog, while some neighbor was getting raped or murdered in their own bed.

I won't bother to recount the rest of the call - suffice to say that after several more minutes of explaining, the clueless dispatcher finally agreed to send an officer to check out my "noise complaint". Based on that, and other conversations I've had with 911/police dispatchers over the years, I certainly wouldn't fault GZ or anyone else for not following an operator's worthless "advice".

As for poor little TM, he represented himself on FB as a thug. He was interested in buying a 9mm pistol, and that he was some type of MMA wanna be. The sad truth is that people like TM either have super steep learning curves or find an early grave.

I'll tell you one thing though, if more people in SB had licenses to carry concealed weapons, you wouldn't have nearly as bad a problem with surly "vagrants" on State street - people learn how to be polite rather quickly when they realize that the average citizen might be packin' heat and just might shoot them dead with it.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In my opinion, GZ did the right thing in following or better for him if he "overshadowed" TM. Profiling is a well practiced method of Law Enforcement for many years in suspecting a crime MAY occur, thus better to be nearby rather than having to play catch-up to get to the crime scene; many LEO's will make themselves seen to prevent a crime or to make the suspect think twice about committing the crime but GZ was a Security Guard and the Main job of a security guard is to "Observe and Report", an armed guard is to protect self or another from Bodily harm (not the suspect) which would be anyone else who could be injured or killed by an ARMED suspect.
Many Security companies are turning to less than lethal weapons, Batons, pepper spray, and even tazers as alternatives to firearms but individuals who rent themselves out as security personnel don't either get the proper training or feel a gun will solve all differences that they may encounter but they fail to accomplish their main objective, observe and report to LEO's (Police). I heard that GZ was told to hold back until police arrived, if that was true, and GZ failed to OBEY, then he was in the wrong and failed as a Security Officer/Guard. Either way, "sneaking around and watching", is a security guards job, Enforcement the Law is not their job. As for the Gun Laws, Texas has the the lowest crime rate other than across the border criminal traffic due to open carry and CC by nearly every citizen (a stretch to that truth), gun fights are few but people think twice about committing crimes when another may be armed.

dou4now (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 9:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)


George Zimmerman *had* worked as private security, but I believe was an insurance agent at the time of the shooting. He has also be described as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, but I also heard he was the only participant.

As for the instruction to "hold back", in your words, I recall that on the audio tape, he said that he was getting out of his car to look for Trayvon (I think he lost visual contact), and the operator said, "We don't need you to do that". To me, that is vague enough to not be an actual command, although I feel that the intent was clear enough.

Unfortunately, I was never available to see any of the the trial coverage, so I don't know if GZ identified himself to TM at any time, which might have made a difference.


"As for poor little TM, he represented himself on FB as a thug. He was interested in buying a 9mm pistol, and that he was some type of MMA wanna be. The sad truth is that people like TM either have super steep learning curves or find an early grave."

One could equally say that "poor little" GZ represented himself as a hero, was interested in power, and was some kind of constable wannabe. The sad truth is, people like GZ are overly-zealous, and cocksure about their capabilities, and may cause someone else to go to an early grave.

These are both comments which are more opinion that fact, although mine is meant to be somewhat satirical of yours.

equus_posteriori (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Everybody under 30 presents themselves on Fb as a "thug" you cretins. Now we have fashion gestapo deciding who it's ok to shoot or not?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Look, if TM would've been the one who shot ANYONE with a 9mm pistol, guess what the state of Florida would've done?

Yes, that's right - the poor little innocent 17 year old "child" would've been tried as an adult, and just like here in SB county, the DA and police would've thrown every "gang enhancement" or other charge imaginable at him. You guys really do watch too much "Law and Order, SVU" type of TV - try watching TRU TV - at least some of the shows on that channel are based in reality.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since when is GZ white anyway?

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Zimmerman is as white as OJ is black.

Take the white privilege quiz, I dare ya.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since NBC edited the 911 call to make him seem like a typical "cracka" racist. (Lightening his photo about 5 shades on the internet didn't exactly make him look like a bastion of racial harmony either!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh jeez, am I really going to have an argument with KV over race? (I'm positively giddy!)

GZ is a Jew, what are you going to do with THAT, smart guy?

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No, GZ is as white as OJ's kids are black.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)


You mentioned vengeance, my upcoming film "Day of Wrath" addresses both vengeance and vigilantism.

David Lynch addresses the OJ case in "Lost Highway".

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Is THAT what Lost Highway was about? How about Eraserhead? I've been trying to figure that one out for over 20 years now!

sacjon (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Eraserhood is inspired by fatherhood and whether an artist ever should be one, both according to Lynch. Tho I figured out Lost Highway ten years before he spilled :)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In many ways "Eraserhead" is about iself, creation/procreation- children and artworks takeing on lives of their own.., etc.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

See, just when you think you're having a meeting of the minds with KV, the whole thing turns into that episode of Star Trek where Spock does the Vulcan "mind meld" (mind fu*k): "So... much... pain!!!!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yeah, I will admit that once I had my first son, Eraserhead made a little more sense!

sacjon (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2013 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I love when spirit tries to sermon about reality, especially when it involves TV. Stick to the conspiracies, it's what you're good at.

spacey (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2013 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And I love it when someone with an user name like "spacey" tries to "sermon" on ANYTHING - he, he, he, that's a funny!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2013 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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