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The Zimmerman trial was not about race, white versus black (or Hispanic), gun control, or “stand your ground.” It was about self-defense and the rule of law. However, you would never know that, by the actions of President Obama, Eric Holder, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Hollywood, or the media. All of them are inciting racism and trying to divide us, so they can have more power and control.

How far our country has fallen.


Independent Discussion Guidelines

I see the title of this letter as a succinct description of its contents.

typo (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2013 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

George Zimmerman is a racist vigilante. May he reap what he sows.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2013 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Apparently the media you choose echoes your view Don, unless you live in Florida and attended the trial. At least act like you know instead of spreading your disease. May you find a cure before you are presented with the ultimate truth.

spacey (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 12:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken would prefer riots to coherent dialogue.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought one of the tenets of liberalism was fairness and justice. I didn't realize it now embraced the idea that a person *accused* of a crime, was guilty, especially if it's politically correct to stoke the flames of racism.

It would be nice if we could have a conclusion to what happened the night Trayvon Martin was killed, but since the evidence was insufficient to convict, (as in the O.J. Simpson trial) we may never know.

The only evidence of racism (not that it matters per the evidence) is when Martin's friend testified that he referred to Zimmerman as a "Cracker", yet the media made Zimmerman (who is of part African ancestry) the racist.

If Martin had been white, would all this attention be given?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

to acknowledge racism, and the racial overtones of the tragic Fla. event, as Obama & Eric Holder have done, should encourage rational dialogue, and it has for the most part, Botany. GZ was well aware of the Fla. stand your ground law and it did influence his violent actions.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Botany supports vigilantism and bigotry but accuses me of wanting riots? Having fun hiding under that rock there?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we all can acknowledge that racism exists in many different forms. It is very presumptuous of ANYONE to assume that they knew beyond a reasonable doubt what was going through GZ's head at the time. That's why he deserved to get acquitted. No one is supporting his actions, in fact his actions showed very poor judgment. But for anyone other than GZ to say they KNEW beyond a reasonable doubt what happened and what GZ was thinking is not supported by the facts.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

then support the lesser manslaughter charge, Botany.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 6:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The same standards apply. Reasonable doubt is clearly evident.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2013 at 8:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting that current surveys are showing that African Americans have a demonstrably higher rate of bias against all non black groups including Hispanics. It's always nice how official minority groups get to talk about everyone else in broad strokes, anyone remember Obama saying his Grandmother that raised him was a "typical white woman"? God forbid any non black stereotypes like that...
Wanting to be with people that are like us and being leery of people that are not like us is in our DNA and this has been proven repeatedly and has been necessary for our survival.
We have PROVEN that these biases are not nurture but instead nature. What is taught is how you treat individuals and cognitively process the natural trepidation.

Specifically, and as most legal analysts agree that GZ should have been charged with their equivalent of reckless endangerment. Manslaughter as Botany points out, had an exact standard for reasonable doubt as does Murder 2. Although they may have been able to make a manslaughter charge stick if they had not attempted the politically motivated overcharge.
As the most recent juror(a minority) said, she thought he was guilty but that there was not evidence to support a finding of guilt.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
July 29, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The author implies the existence of Black racism. But he doesn't argue for the universality of Black racism, he merely cites some exceedingly popular demagogues... and also some rich mega-preachers, ha ha.

Wind-fingered social critics, beware the power of obviousness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2013 at 2:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If a police dispatcher advises you to get back in your car and end the pursuit , what would you do ?

geeber (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2013 at 6:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think anyone's arguing that GZ's not guilty of bad judgment.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2013 at 6:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ha! bad judgement? Guess what happens to colored folk when they don't follow orders from the police. Hint: they don't receive a get out of jail free card.

spacey (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2013 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

GZ is colored folk.

Botany (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2013 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"If a police dispatcher advises you to get back on your car and end the pursuit, what would you do?"

Duh... the same thing I'd do if Brad Pitt, Will Smith, Angelina Jolie, Arnold Schwarzeneggar or any other overpaid airhead "advises" me to do ANYTHING": Whatever I think IS BEST!!! (Hint, the people answering 911 calls are NOT out of work brain surgeons!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 6:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't take your bigoted points of view seriously spoofswallower.

and your lack of cohesive thought is no help, not to mention your strange fixation with law enforcement.

but you and the Thorns should get along fine. All three of you walk on the same side of the fence.

lawdy (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Anyone who has followed Diana and Don Thorns numerous far right dreck filled opinion pieces will not be surprised here. Also not surprising is the support this killing has gotten from Fox News. Now we can also add two blighters from the comment section to that list.

geeber (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is not a letter to the editor it looks like some sort of Faux news inspired, goofy haiku. Mr. Thorn should take a nice adult ed course on English composition then get back to us with more than a rambling "paragraph".

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 6:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, you're right, it's a Fauxku! Personally, I prefer the demented ramblings of the other Thorn.

zappa (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In one respect it was about self-defense: Trayvon Martin defending himself from someone who was following him, when all he was doing was returning home.

In another respect it was about race: the defense put a witness on the stand who talked about burglary by black men. (I also heard that Zimmerman's cousin said it was about race, but that is hearsay.)

And finally, the jury did not know they were doing wrt to the verdict. They acquitted because they could not prove intentional killing - something they did not have to do for manslaughter.

All commentary seems to be through the eyes of the beholder - only parts of the case are cited that support preconceived notions.

The tragedy is that a teenager walking home should NEVER be shot dead. Not in a civilized nation.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have several neighbors that could reasonably be described as "busy bodies" - from time to time they have followed me for no apparent reason.

Did I find this behavior annoying? YES!

Would I have been legally justified in attacking them because I was "scared" or thought they were "crazy ass crackers"? NO!

As for this "could not prove intentional killing" argument, it's the most moronic thing I've ever heard - the juror who made that statement clearly does not understand plain English - GZ clearly stated ON VIDEO TAPE that he drew his weapon and shot TM. There's absolutely NO doubt that GZ DELIBERATELY killed someone in self defense. NONE!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 10:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is NO evidence other than Zimmerman's word that Trayvon did the attacking. Crazy Ass Cracker is nothing more than an expression of fear and frustration. Barbara Morgan uttered an expletive-filled tirade yesterday, without there being any violence. What people utter in fear and anger mean nothing other than not being P.C. But if a black person does it, then apparently it is wrong. If Cheney says GFY, no big deal.

And as for the "intentional" part - I heard this from several legal analysts. I would take their word over yours.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 10:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lol. Nobody followed you spiritwalker you funny old demented lunatic you. It's too bad you failed the law enforcement entry test 18 times. Might have spared humanity your deranged posts.

lawdy (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Zimmerman had a black girlfriend for his prom date.

Obama co-sponsored a stand your ground law in the Illinois legislature.

Florida has a stand your ground law but Zimmerman was found unanimously not-guilty *without* using that law in his defense.

We're either a country of laws or we're a country filled with emotional reactions ruled by cults of personality and hateful statements like that of Ken Volok

willy88 (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 11:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"there is NO evidence other than Zimmerman's word ... blah, blah, blah... Are you mentally challenged, or just willfully blind?

The evidence that GZ was in fact attacked are the injuries to his scalp and nose. Or, are you perhaps going to argue that GZ forced poor little Trayvon to punch him in the nose and bash his head on the sidewalk at gunpoint, and THEN shot him?

As for you, lawdy, the fact that such a brainless, myopic idiot may actually turn out to be the Santa Barbara county Sheriff is frightening!

(And just for your information, I've NEVER failed ANY test, let alone some idiotic "law enforcement entry test" (whatever that is). In fact, when I was in the Army I took the SQT for 95 Bravo 10 (MP) and got the highest score in the Company. (I took it after being badgered for years by my "superiors", and just like you and that slimy witch 'Priceless', they hated me for making all the REAL MPs look STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!)

Anything else, smart guy?

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2013 at 11:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Arguments about Zimmerman being " attacked" and having responded legally based on stand your ground law are negated by the killers pursuit of Martin. Trial testimony showed that Martin ran from the killer , and that the killer chased after him like a hunter tracking prey.
If I go to the store to buy candy and spiritwalker or willy88 start following me , then start running after me when I run away , then yeah , I'm gonna stop and try to beat their asses. I guess if they're packing , I'm dead. Some kind of justice , huh?

geeber (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 2:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All I can say is that we must not have watched the same trial on teevee - in the trial I watched, there was approximately 4 minutes of silence in the court room to demonstrate that poor little Trayvon had plenty of time to escape the evil killer GZ - instead of doing so, poor, frightened little Trayvon backtracked and then attacked GZ.

What trial were you watching?

As for your claim that someone "running after" you is some sort of justification to "beat their asses", you better check the law or you're going to be doing a lot of jail time - GZ did NOTHING that would LEGALLY justify a physical beating.

How many times do I have to point out that people have a right to watch other people in public. They also have a right to follow someone if they choose. And until and unless they try to physically detain or harm you in some way, you do NOT have the right to attack them. End of story.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 5:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Justice , spiritwalker style.

geeber (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 6:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Although such a cryptic comment hardly warrants a response, WTF is "Justice , spiritwalker style" supposed to mean?

(If your trying to suggest that I singlehandedly invented the right to defend one's self when attacked, or that it's okay to beat people up just because they're annoying, you need some serious professional help.)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 7:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)


"...GZ did NOTHING that would LEGALLY justify a physical beating."'re saying that the beating was justified, just not by law?


"I have several neighbors that could reasonably be described as "busy bodies" - from time to time they have followed me for no apparent reason."

This is a false-equivalency. You recognize your neighbors, while Martin did not know who Zimmerman was or what he was up to. If a stranger followed you in the middle of the night, would you not exhibit *any* flight-or-fight response? And, are you the type of man who would choose flight in that situation?

equus_posteriori (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 1:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If someone is stalking me in the middle of night, beating them is justified. Zimmerman is like the busybodies condemning Lopez on another thread, instead of having a life he took a life. And now I bet he profits from it as well.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2013 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Naah, it was about the Fist Of Goodness fantasizing about protecting his community, except instead of falling thru a skylight and interrupting a dinner, he decide to trail a Black teenager until the kid panicked and then over-reacted about being followed, which resulted in his death - by the incompetent hand of the Fist Of Goodness .....

BuleriaChk (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2013 at 6:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

KV, for someone who often passes for a reasonably intelligent sock puppet (at least some of the time, anyway), your last comment is unbelievably stupid - ANYONE can follow you at ANY time. And if you're actually foolish enough to attack and physically beat them, you will suffer some sort of legal consequences for such an act caught. GUARANTEED!

AS for poor little Trayvon "overreacting", It really is amazing to me that so many "people" are willing to overlook his history of thugishness so they can pretend he was some kind of innocent little saint.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2013 at 7:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Neither Zimmerman or Martin qualify as poster children for Mensa....

BuleriaChk (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2013 at 9:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I envision spiritwalker with a halo over his head , deciding who is worthy of living and who deserves to die.

geeber (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 3:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Spiritwalker: I can testify that Ken Volok is a real person. I've met him, and he's the same person who if you google him, has entries on the Internet.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 4:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If ANYONE "envisions" me with a halo over my head, they must have brain damage. And for the record, I do not even pretend to decide "who deserves to die" - all I'm doing is clarifying what has been common law for at least 200 years. I.e., that if you're in a public place and you want to follow someone around and watch them, there's really nothing they can LEGALLY do to stop you. (If I were an artist, I'd draw you people a picture demonstrating that it is against the law to beat someone up just because they're annoying, frightening, boring or anything less than physically attacking/restraining/harming you, but I'm not, so I won't.)

As for KV being a real person, if that's true, why does he go so far out of his way to act like a sock puppet? Why does he feel the need to spew nonsensical one liners in regard to virtually EVERY article on this sight? The fact of the matter is that if KV thinks he has a legal right beat someone up because they're "stalking' him "in the middle of the night", he's an idiot!

(And by the way Dr. Einstein, since when is 7:09 PM ''the middle of the night''? You give people endless crap about spelling and grammar, and can't even get your facts straight, Sock Puppet!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 5:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey "billclausen", how do we know YOU are real, or if you are one of "Ken's" sockpuppets?

SpiroTWalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess you've got a point there Spiro.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 4:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ha, ha, ha! I must be a real burr under Sheriff Fat Ass' saddle if his little media whore feels she needs play these kinds of games!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

after scores of posts/interactions obviously BC and KV are both real! And add some interesting stuff here, thanks guys.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"nothing is real". (From the song Strawberry Fields Forever)

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So then the more profound question arises which is "who is the REAL DrDan", is is the DrDan we see here, or the DrDan93109?

Is spiritwalker related to Spiro(mania) Walker? Is "Ken_Volok just a sockpuppet for the deceased blogger "EZK"? Sevendolphins, eightdolphins, dolphinpod14, and hundreds, if not thousands of other bloggers. Make me a very confused boy today.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Doc ;)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Look, here's how to tell the difference between a sock puppet/astro turfer and an actual person: The sock puppets generally don't post well reasoned comments, they just engage in the sort of name calling and childish taunts as you "folks".

(Another dead giveaway is that they constantly make a big deal about minor grammar and spelling errors!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's very odd that Trayvon Martin was able to assault Zimmerman with no DNA exchanged. I've never known a black man who didn't realize that being black in public after dark is generally considered illegal - I can't imagine a kid like Martin not being terrified by a white guy following him.

14noscams (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh yeah, I completely forgot to address the "blogger" canard... what you're actually saying is that anyone with strong, consistent opinions contrary to the owner of the Independent, is a blogger - GOT IT, I"M NOW A BLOGGER!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You know, I really won't mind being "banned and barred" from posting on this site if the best argument you "people" can come up with is nonsense like poor little Trayvon being "terrified". The evidence and law are indisputable: TM physically attacked someone who was doing NOTHING illegal. GET OVER IT!!!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What are the opinions of the owner of the Independent?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You seem terrified of even more irrational things Spirit, who are you to judge?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That poor little Trayvon was a "saint", guns are "bad", that we need to "do" something about "climate change"... you know, the general nonsense you believe in, KV.

As for being "terrified", what gives you that silly notion? I'm just bored and really, really sick of stupid people. (And, of course, disgusting, paid liars!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well you're always good for a laugh, which is probably why you haven't been banned.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My take is that the Indy's general policy is support for LE. My limited personal experience is that LE is biased against blacks. Only one incident - when I was in high school, ditching high school one day, Malibu sheriff's raided a spot by the creek in Topanga. I had some pot, sold by my best friend;s neighbor, a cop. I was an Anglo, 17, my boyfriend was black, 18. We both told the sheriffs it was mine, he was charged, not me. My boyfriend frequently closed the Jack-In-the-Box where he worked at 2am, and was pulled over and hassled almost every night driving home - never arrested, no tickets, very recognizable Austin Healey, 4-6 nights a week for 2 1/2 years, 4 different cops, who ate at this place frequently. He rented a room from 2 Anglo brothers who also worked there and closed when he didn't, neither was ever stopped. Anecdote unrelated to TM or GZ.

14noscams (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A laugh? What's "funny" to me is that although I'm constantly attacked by juvenile mentalities who just can't seem to post a single comment without referencing some sort of sexual perversion, for some reason "people" are suggesting that I'm the one who should be banned. Now, that is FUNNY!

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sounds like a lawsuit that should've been filed 14.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If by "support for LE", you mean posting all those propaganda pieces intended to convince the public that people are actually crazy/stupid enough to get in a 25 or 30 foot skiff and bring a ton of worthless brick weed here all the way from Mexico, then yes, I guess the Independent "supports" LE.

(Personally, I think only those who are actually interested in enforcing actual laws deserve any kind of support, not a bunch of liars trying to BS us all into purchasing more expensive toys they don't need... but I guess that's just me!)

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've seen you post more fabrications (lies) and myths in a month than all the erroneous stories the Indy has published in its entire history.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A lawsuit, KV? Now this is the sort of comment that makes it hard for me to believe you are authentic - a member of my immediate family was tazed while in the midst of a medical emergency - although he almost died as a result, the fear of retaliation by the "law enforcers" made a lawsuit really out of the question. Do you really think everything actually works the way they show it on TV? Really?

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 8:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Please list ALL the "fabrications and lies" I've posted so that I can PROVE you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

spiritwalker (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2013 at 9:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@14noscams: Another thing I read into your story is that being that your boyfriend was legally an adult, it would have been easier for charges to stick against him

As for racial profiling, there is a black Libertarian named Richard Boddie ( who even though he's anything but an "Angry Black Man" matter-of-factly mentioned that he was getting pulled over about once per week in an interview I heard back in the '90's. A friend of mine, who's black, a Gulf War vet, and a staunch flag-waving patriot conservative also mentioned to me recently in the same matter-of-fact way how cops racially profile. I say this lest anyone think I'm trying to contradict you on the point of racial profiling.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2013 at 5:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

billclausen: Definitely, they wanted a possession charge against an adult, and it might be a general policy to go for that if there wasn't a race issue, but neither of us saw it that way at the time. Definitely a potential lawsuit - sheriffs were nominally rousting people for trespassing, no probable cause for search. His parents wanted to file a civil suit, mine wanted it to disappear. He's a lawyer now, and I'm glad. You're right - the only overt racism was the cracker comment, and italiansurg is correct about polls showing blacks as more racially biased than whites. I'm glad I grew up in "EllisIslandVille" in Queens, where the prevailing race/culture was American immigrant, the only grandparents who spoke English were Irish, and everyone was different.

14noscams (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2013 at 7:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@14noscams: It could well have been both (Race and his being an adult) but the over-18 factor would make it much easier for them.

Per your upbringing, although I've never been to New York, what I know about it is that it's a world of its own that transcends race probably more than any place in the U.S.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2013 at 7:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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