Armenian or Turk Claims ‘Genocider’?

Friday, February 21, 2014
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The letter “Millions Were Lost in Armenian Genocide” contains historical inaccuracies.

Statements that “Armenian genocide is a proven fact” are false. The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) stated it”doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths” (Perincek vs. Switzerland). Demonizing the rejection of the notion of “Armenian genocide” while the debates in academia still go on, resembles demonizing the admirers/opponents of Charles Darwin for their disbelief/belief in God. Neither group represents the entirety of humankind or possess a monopoly on truth.

The ECHR found it inadmissible to draw any comparison between the Holocaust and the Armenian narratives, since the latter lacks “clear legal basis” and does not constitute an act “that had been found by an international court to be clearly established.”

Dismissal of the notion of “genocide” does not imply the denial of the well-established fact of Armenian massacres. The Californian lawmakers should have instructed the education department to emphasize that as a result of inter-communal civil war during WWI, both Armenians and Muslims suffered terrible human tragedies, but due to the absence of legal basis and international court’s decision, neither side can claim the deaths among its members to be “more genocidal” than the other’s.

Attribution of the infamous statement to Adolf Hitler is a proven forgery. The Nuremberg Tribunal refused to accept the suspicious document as evidence. Even if Raphael Lemkin’s notion of “genocide” (1943) were retroactively applied to the events of decades earlier, then the complete annihilation of Herero and Namakwa peoples in 1904-07 would have been considered the first genocide of the century. Finally, Armenia is not the first Christian nation, as the letter alleges. More than a century before King Tiridat III had adopted Christianity in the Parthian province of Armenia in 301, Edessa (Osroene) was the first state to adopt Christianity in 198 AD.


Independent Discussion Guidelines

Great op-ed! Thank you!

hrantdink (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 5:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Neither group represents the entirety of humankind or possess a monopoly on truth". Neither does the ECHR.
Please see:

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There was no genocide. Armenians are not first christian nation. In fact, I do not consider Armenians as a Christian nation at all, since too many representatives of this nation lie and kill etc. Armenia has occupied 20 % of Azerbaijan, and Armenia is responsible for ethnic cleansing and genocide of civilians in Khojaly

I hope "Independent" will publish more true stories of 1915 events, there is a lot of research abut it, for ex S.A. Weems "ARMENIA SECRETS OF “CHRISTIAN” TERRORIST STATE "

See also Professor Stanford Shaw; Professor Heath Lowry; Professor Justin McCarthy. Their books based on archives.
Here is the document signed by 70 worlds known historians stated that “ Armeniangenocide 1915” never existed.
Declaration Made By American Academicians (May 19, 1985)

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

May 11, 1918, letter to Cleveland Hoadley Dodge
"the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense."

It is always nice to hear peoples opinion even thought you don't agree with them. The only problem is when your opinion is part of the Turkish governments propaganda to deny the Armenian Genocide it's sad to see. First off nobody can deny that the Armenians that used to live in their ancient homeland are not there anymore. Cilicia, Kars, Van, are just a couple of examples of Armenian populated areas that dont have any Armenians anymore. How is it that these people lived there for thousands of years and in the process of five years (1915-1920) they disappeared. How can you explain the fact that millions of Armenians lived in the historical Armenia and none are there today? Well we have the facts to show that these people were murdered,raped, hanged. These are not Armenian sources these are German, American and French sources that say Armenians were massacred and removed from their homes. Now if you wanna call it a Genocide that's your choice but don't you dare to try to justify what happened to those innocent women and children. I don't care that some Armenians sided with the Russians during the war that does not give you the right to remove a whole population from their homeland. Shame on you people for not admitting to your crimes and letting the souls of the dead rest. Instead of trying to find excuses to why you murdered innocent women and children try to find a way to say sorry to the children of does people.

thetruth123 (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Did y'all know the world is only 6,000 years old? The bible says so. If it ain't in the bible, it didn't happen.

spacey (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 12:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Excellent editorial, thank you!

It is now firmly established by none other than the mighty supreme court of Europe, namely the European Court of Human Rights, ECHR, in its December 17, 2013 verdict, that the events of 1915 cannot be proven to be genocide or compared to Jewish Holocaust. What’s more, silencing contra-genocide views is a direct violation of the human rights, freedom of thought, expression, and speech–a stance contra-genocide scholars and writers were advocating all along. Armenians who still stubbornly and senselessly demand that their long discredited political political claim of genocide be recognized as the sole truth and doubters be damned, are clearly committing the crime of trampling their freedom of speech.

Now, the Turkish side of the story, long dismissed, ignored, and/or censored, will finally be heard. Armenian agitation, propaganda, insurgency, deception, terrorism, treason, revolts, territorial demands, and the resulting Muslim, mostly Turkish, suffering and losses, all meticulously documented with rock solid historical evidence, will be included in the debate for a balanced treatment of the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Armenian propaganda, hearsay and forgeries have run their course. The game is over.

All this is good, as it can now be expected to have a civilized dialogue and reasoned debate which, in turn, may finally produce closure based on the concepts of “shared responsibility,” “shared pain,” and “fair memory”.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 1:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is neither an editorial nor an op-ed; it's a "Letter to the Editor".
I'm glad Turkish censorship laws aren't being enforced on American soil. If this were The Istanbul Independent this discussion would lead to arrests and worse.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 1:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Armenian propaganda, hearsay and forgeries have run their course. The game is over. It was a "inter-communal warfare between Christian and Muslim iregulars", as 69 historians and scholars declared in a signed, public statement published in New York Times on May 19, 1985. It was a "civil war within a world war" ... It was wartime tragedy where all sides suffered, not just Armenians... that It was "Turkish-Armenian conflict"... But not genocide, not even close.

It is time for a sensible dialogue now; no more name calling, deception, or lies...

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"inter-communal warfare between Christian and Muslim iregulars"? There were many Muslims that helped the Christian Armenians during the Armenian Genocide, but lets not make this about being Christian or Muslim. The fact is murdering WOMEN AND CHILDREN cant be justified i don't care how you try to spin this. If Armenians had the force to kill Muslims trust me they would first protect their families from being raped and murdered. USE BASIC LOGIC GUYS COME ON.

thetruth123 (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Take a look at this photo: . That single frame blows all Armenian arguments out of the water: Armenian cadets at a military academy, proudly brandishing to the camera their Russian-made brand new "Mosin" weapons, in Bulgaria in 1906. They don;t look like poor, starving Armenians, do they? And as far removed from 1915 as 1906? A military academy? Hardly the traits for a peaceful, loyal community, wouldn't you say? The fact is Armenians took up arms against their own government and Turks defended their home. Both sides suffered terribly. The facts are there for dispassionate, fair minds. The rest is "Hye hype."

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The 1985 statement in the NYT signed by the illustrious 69 scholars of Ottoman history, referred to by Mr. Kirikovali, never uses the phrase "civil war within a world war". Mr. Kirikovali should be more careful with his use of quotation marks to avoid creating his own version of the truth as he goes along. Besides that, civil war implies two more or less equal forces within the same nation contending with each other for control over the central government. The strife between Turks and Armenians was never even close to that. In most cases it was the result of generations of intolerable oppression of the tiny Armenian minority by the Turkish/Ottoman government. You can't make a "civil war" out of that.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kirlikovali - you put a picture of 40 men with guns and you are telling me this explains the murder of 1.5 million Armenians? are you kidding me? lets say 10000 Armenian MEN joined the Russian Army, how does that make it ok to kill women and children? I cant believe there are still people like you that have this horrible mentality. If you look closely that's exactly how Hitler convinced the German people to kill the Jewish people.

thetruth123 (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

At the beginning of WWI a large part of historical Armenia was under the control of the Russian Empire, so it makes perfect sense that there were large numbers of Armenians in the Russian Army. Only a mouthpiece for the facist, racist governmet of Turkey would make such an asine assertion. Not only was the Armenian Genocide a template for the Holocaust and ethnic cleansing worldwide, the Turkish Republic was an model for the rise of Facist Italy and Nazi Germany.
Modern Turkey is based on the idea of Turkish racial superiority. They have been fighting to erase the Kurdish culture for eighty years. The cult of personality around Ataturk is the law in the "modern" "European" Turkey. Part of the cult's work is right here in the op ed section of the Independent and it is vile and disgusting

The existence of the Armenian Genocide was been proven in court. First by a Ottoman court and in two cases by German courts. Only followers of the cult of Ataturk are in denial of the Armenian Genocide.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This photo at , taken from Houshamatyan published by ARF (Armenian revolutionary Federation( in Armenian in 1990 and in English in 2006, to mark the 100th anniversary of the founding of ARF in Tbilisi (saound familiar?) They were boasting in that book as to how they killed Turks in various "expeditions". They provide ,maps, bios of Armenian terrorists, even "gun toting Armenian priests" in that book. That photo is proudly displayed there on page 186.

So, the Armenian theory that Young Turks one April 24th morning in 1915 tried to commit genocide does not hold water. The name of the book (fasten your seat belts for this one): "Album I - Epic Battles, 1890-1914.

Epic battles? I thought you people claimed that Turks slaughtered all Armenians and then some, which would beg the question where the Armenian writers here came from.

You people must decide whether you waged epic battles with Turks between 1890 and 1914 as ARF boasts or did Turks exterminate all "poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenians" all of a sudden in 1915...

By the way, the history of Armenian terrorism does not even start in 1890. There is Hunchaks (1887), Armenakan *1882) and more. Armenian historian Nalbandian puts the start of Armenian terrorism at 1862. Please be informed.

"Civil War within a world war" is also used by Prof. Justin McCarthy. I am not the inventor, which is why I put in quotations.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What do I know?...maybe a little. In addition to what my frenemy Herschel_Greenspan said, there is the joing issue of the Assyrian genocide. No hard feelings here, but I'm half Assyrian so I figured I'd get in on the fun.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 6:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Epic battles? I thought you people claimed that Turks slaughtered all Armenians and then some, which would beg the question where the Armenian writers here came from. "

Are you kidding? No one has ever claimed that all Armenians were slaughtered by the Ottoman / Turkish State. No the Ottomans did not decide to start their slaughter on April 24, 1915, they had long history of anti Armenian pograms. When ones people are being slaughtered, as the Armenians were in the late 19th century, those people will fight back by any means. Take your Turkish agit prop somewhere else.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 6:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What do I know?...maybe a little. In addition to what my frenemy Herschel_Greenspan said, there is the joing issue of the Assyrian genocide. No hard feelings here, but I'm half Assyrian so I figured I'd get in on the fun.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
February 21, 2014 at 6:34 p.m

So king Nimrod, do you expect compemasation from the turking government?

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 12:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The number of armed Armenians fighting on the Russian side was 150,000, which is way above the upper estimate of 10,000 assumed by 'The Truth-Anonymous' in his comment above. My source is the famed Armenian leader of the time Armenian Garo. He boasts about this many fighters in his book 'Why Armenia Should be Free' printed by the Hairenik Press of Boston in 1918. Armenian Garo was one of the commanders of the Armenian armed rebellion from 1914-1918. He also was their arms trader.

How free were the Armenians prior to World War-1 (1914-1918)?
This rebel leader served as a deputy in the Ottoman Parliament for 4 years. The famous Talaat Pasha 'on behalf of the Committee of Union and Progress offered the portfolio of public works to Armenian Garo at three different times' as quoted from the book mentioned above.

Since he did not know in 1918,mhow the war would turn around, Armenian Garo did not hide the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia were engaged in warfare against the Turks.

Let us make a simple calculation:
With their moms - dads, brothers and sisters, these 150,000 Armenian warriors amount to at least 750,000. Imagine this many Armenians aided and abetted the Russian side during the Great War of 1914-1918 which was fought over the land of the Ottoman Empire...

During this time, The Ottoman armies had to defend their entire population (majority of which was Muslim) on the Western Front against the invading British and French armies. The famous wars of Gallipoli were fought during this time. In fact the land attack began on 25 April 1915 - the day 245 Leaders of the Armenian rebellion were taken into custody in istanbul. There was so much need in the Southern front that even the gendarmerie (that would normally suppress internal turmoil) were called to fight on the ranks of the Ottoman Army at the war front.

With most able bodied males of the Turkish population at the front lines, the innocent Turks fell victim to the 'Armenian warriors' commanded by such killers (called leaders by the Armenians) like: Dro, Andranik, Mourad, Keri, Vartan, Hamazasp, Khetcho as Dro in Armenian Garo's book. Later in the 1970's and 1980's elite diplomats of the Republic of Turkey were assassinated around the world capitals by Armenian underground organizations like ASALA, JCAG, etc created by the Armenian hate machine. I am yet to hear these innocent lives mentioned (let alone grieved) by the Armenian propagandists.

More Turks were killed in the same area at the same time frame. We should grieve for all the war dead instead of glorifying some and propagating hatred for others!

Fatma (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 1:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No Dolphinpod, I don't feel anyone owes me--or anyone else--anything. I'm just saying that IF this issue must be brought up, tell the whole story.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 2:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Every serious unbiased historian underlines that Armenians were killing Turkish and Kurdish civilians "to clean" the land and create so called "great Armenia".
Here are some references:

William A. Langer, The Diplomacy of Imperialism, New York, 1960:
Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain. One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would "watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession". When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply: "It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it" (p. 157).

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Evidences showing that Armenians massacred civilians of Turkish and Kurdish origin were gathered by US officials:
Niles, Emory and Sutherland, Arthur, U.S. 867.00/1005, Princeton, 11 October 1919:
(Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur Sutherland were Americans ordered by the United States Government in 1919 to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia.)

"In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed".

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To find out how Armenians ethnically cleansed Turks see Prof. McCarthy, Justin, Death and Exile, The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims 1821-1922, The Darwin Press Inc., 1995:

"In the provinces in which the war was primarily fought-Van, Bitlis and Erzurum-at least 40 percent of the Muslims were dead at war's end. Of course Muslims were not the only ones to die. The Armenian death rate was at least as great and Armenian losses cannot be ignored. But the world has long known of the suffering of Armenians. It is time for the world to also consider the suffering of the Muslims of the east and the horror that it was. Like the Armenians, Muslims were massacred or died from starvation and disease in stupefying numbers. Like the Armenians their deaths deserve remembrance".

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

eywittness about massacres by Armenians against Turkish and Kurdish population of Ottoman empire:
General Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 24 July 1921:

"As demonstrated by
the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives etc., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers.

Since all Muslims capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenceless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Muslim folk in the region as well. The Armenian atrocities which I have witnessed were far worse than the so-called Turkish brutality."

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

C.F. Dixon-Johnson underlines that Armenian "genocide" is absolutely false (see The Armenians, Blackburn 1916):

"We have no hesitation in repeating that these stories of wholesale massacre have been circulated with the distinct objective of influencing, detrimentally to Turkey, the future policy of the British Government when the time of settlement shall arrive. No apology, therefore, is needed for honestly endeavouring to show how a nation with whom we were closely allied for many years and which possesses the same faith as millions of our fellow-subjects, has been condemned for perpetrating horrible excesses against humanity on 'evidence' which, when absolutely false, is grossly and shamefully exaggerated" (p. 61)

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It looks like the Turkish apologists are laying a vile layer of astroturf at the Indy. Santa Barbarians are too smart to believe your lies on behalf of the facists in Ankara. The Armenian Holocaust is a historical fact. Untill the Turkish Republic admits to past crimes against humanity and their current oppression of the Kurds, they will remain a pariah nation.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Santa Barbarians are fed up with Armenian terrorists. There are two major waves of Armenian terrorism in history. The first one from 1862 to 1922, lasted 50 years, and it bloodied Ottoman lands mostly in Asia. There was a lull for about 50 years and it started again in 1973. Armenian terrorists, unfortunately, selected Santa Barbara for their heinous hate crime. A 78-year-old Armenian man, Yanikian, deceived two young Turkish diplomats with a bogus promise of returning some stolen artwork and shot them point blank in a hotel room in Santa Barbara in 1973--I don't want to name the hotel here in case their business is hurt by that shameless, despicable Armenian terrorism. What did the Armenians do? Declare the cold-blooded murderer a hero and even collected money for his legal defense. Armenians have given Santa Barbara nothing but blood-letting, hate speech, and dastardly crime. Armenian contribution to American seem to have been mostly hate speech, vengeance talk, hate crime, cold-blooded murders, dastardly assassinations (4 in America alone, many more around the globe), bombings, terrorism, lies, and deception. I have yet to read one word of remorse from the Armenian writers. And I am not holding my breath, either.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Time for you guys to get a FB page, or a room or something. Enough. Please go away.
By the way, "Santa Barbarians" is moron speak for Santa Barbarans.

zappa (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kirlikovali you are either a fool or a paid tool of your beloved Turkey. The Ottoman Empire / Republic of Turkey have the blood of millions of Armenians, Greeks, Assryians, Kurds and others on its hands and you cry about the vengence killing of two by a disturbed old man.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 6:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Name calling, threats, ridicule, censorship... These are tools the Armenian fantics have used for a hundred years to dupe the people into thinking "poor starving Armenians" killed by Turks... Take a look at this photo: and you will know the real story. Ask about the Van Rebellion of 17 April-24 May, 1915... Ask about Armenian agitation, terrorism, revolts, treason, territorial demands... Ask about the Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims of Armenian revolutionaries... You'll get no response from the Armenians... They will deny all... Because if they own up to the truth, then one can no longer talk about genocide... But the game is over. European Court of Human Rights set the record straight for all with its Dec 17, 2013 decision: genocide cannot be proven or compared to Holocaust. These are the facts whether Armenian fanatics or terror-supporters agree or not. Armenians talked for 100 years... Now, it is our turn!

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 8:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Armenians didn't want to live under the Turkish yolk anymore than the Founders of the USA wanted to live under Britain's.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 22, 2014 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This 3:12 video explains what the Armenians long for.

Three minutes and twelve seconds will enlighten you.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
February 23, 2014 at 2:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So, Volok & Dolphin, you just confessed to the world that it was not Young Turks exterminating poor, starving Armenians one Spring morning in 1915 for no reason after living together in Anatolia for a millennium. You just declared to the world that Armenians actually wanted out and revolted. No shame in that. And the Turks defended their home and unity and there is no shame in that. After all, didn't we do just that in the American Civil War of 1860-1864? This is the simple truth and we have been saying that all along. But the Armenians deceived the world into thinking that Turks had a pre-conceived plan and intent to exterminate all Armenians. That does not hold water. Never did, never will. And even you people confessed to this righ above my message. Thank you for being truthful for once in your lives.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well if I must confirm my position, I will go with internationally accepted history and state that the Ottoman Empire did indeed execute a genocide against the Armenian people.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 9:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Armenian wanted out due to numerous Ottoman sponsored pogroms over the decades preceeding WWl.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Volok, genocide is a legal term, defined by 1948 UN convention, that can only be reached by a "competent tribunal" and only after proving "intent". Thees are very specific requirements that have never been met by the baseless Armenian claims. The verdict can only be given by ICJ (International Court of Justice); not by historians, scholars, academicians, diplomats, soldiers, singers, song writers, columnists, priests, community leaders, politicians or others... Only one address can declare genocide: ICJ. There is no court verdict of that kind anywhere, whereas there are verdicts for Holocaust, Rwanda and Srebrenica. Others can be debated under the headings war crimes, hate crimes, wars, etc. That is what we have been saying all along. When we sit down and debate this thing in a civilized manner, bereft of Armenian fanaticism, then you can see that Armenians revolted and Turks defended. Were war crimes committed? Yes, absolutely, but by both sides. Wasn't there a lot of suffering and deaths? Yes, absolutely, but by both sides. Weren't all Armenians moved? No, tens of thousands in Istanbul, the capital of the Ottoman Empire, were not moved at all, because they mostly stayed loyal. Also NOT moved were Armenians of Izmir, Edirne, and many other Western cities of the Empire. Also NOT moved were Armenians of Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox faith and those artisans, bakers, doctors, and many more professions. Armenians who were a clear and present danger to Ottoman war effort in the East through their treasonous acts were moved, temporarily, hence the term TERESET (Temporary Resettlement.) These people were free to return after the war and some did. But most of those returned started killing Muslims again in the Southy under the French uniforms. When France signed a separate peace with Turkey in 1921, these Armenians left with fear of retaliation by Muslims for the excesses committed by the Armenians. The genocide talk makes angels of Armenians, with absolutely no fault, whereas we all know--by Armenian documents, photos, confessions, narratives and other evidence-- that Armenian revolted, resorted to ethno-religious cleansing, provoking a formidable backlash.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Museum of Tolerance, Public Relations
Simon Wiesenthal Plaza
9786 West Pico Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90035

From the Museum of Tolerance, Los Angeles, irrefutable, educated research and findings:

"Between 1915-1923, an estimated 800,000 to 1.5 million Armenians, approximately half the Armenian population living in the Ottoman Empire, were killed in massacres or died as a consequence of military deportations, forced marches and mass starvation in one of the first genocidal campaigns of the 20th century.

The Armenians, natives of Asia Minor, are an ancient culture dating back to more than 2000 years. This minority population has experienced a long record of persecution and second-class citizenship, including a series of massacres between 1894-1896 under Sultan Abdul-Hamid II. The disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, followed by the outbreak of World War I, escalated racial and nationalist ideologies, and persecution of the Armenians reached unprecedented levels. The political party in power, the Young Turks, began a campaign of marginalization, forced conversion, and expulsion of the Armenian population. At the start of the war, Armenian men were conscripted into the military. By 1915 these men were forced to disarm and then assembled into labor battalions where they were starved, beaten and often worked to death.

On April 24, 1915, the government arrested over 300 prominent Armenian political, community and intellectual leaders in Constantinople. All were sent to prison and summarily executed. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians were massacred and drowned in the Euphrates River and Black Sea. The vast majority of the Armenian population was deported to the Syrian desert; many Armenians died during these forced marches from thirst, starvation, and exposure. Survivors faced dispossession, the loss of a centuries-old heritage, and a scattering of people. Writing in Red Cross Magazine in March 1918, Henry Morgenthau, Sr., American Ambassador to Turkey from 1913-1916, wrote that: "None of the fearful horrors perpetrated in the various zones of war can compare with the tragic lot of the Armenians."

For additional historical information:

Charny, Israel. Encyclopedia of Genocide. (2 vols) Santa Barabara, CA: ABC-Clio, 1999.
Dadrian, Vahakn. The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus. Providence, RI: Berghahn Books, 1995.
Hovannisian, Richard G., ed. The Armenian Genocide: History, Politics, Ethics. (New York: St. Martin's Press), 1992.
Miller, Donald and Lorna Touryan Miller. Survivors: An Oral History of the Armenian Genocide. Berkeley, Los Angeles, and London: University of California Press, 1993.
Winter, Jay and Baggett, Blaine. The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century. New York and London: Penguin Studio, 1996. (Also companion video)"

Herodotus (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 12:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)


"…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well- known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies…."

Source: Lamsa, George M., a missionary well known for his research on Christianity,
The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia 1923, p 133

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 24, 2014 at 1:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herodotus has left 2 citations and refered us to some books - all of them are written by Armenians. Moreover, they are written in the modern time. Cherny is nor Armenian, but he is sponsored by armenians.

Armenian diaspora spend a lot of money to falsify research in this field, but fortunately there are not so many historians who are happy to sell their souls and all third parts unbiased resources state clearly: armenians were killing civilian Turks and Kurds to "clean" the land and build "great Armenia".

On the other hand, the ref which I have submitted and Mr. Kirlikovali, belong to people who lived 1915-1923, eyewitnesses and all of them are neither armenians or turks.

To summarize the discussion: armenians are guilty of ethnic cleansing in Ottoman empire 1915-1923, they have started civil war which caused masscres in both directions.

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 26, 2014 at 9:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

and one more comment showing that armenians try to falsify the history:

E. Alexander Powell, The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia, New York, 1925:
Atrocity stories have been vastly overdone; some of the more recent massacres have been wholly nonexistent. One of the local (Constantinople) members of the press and of a relief organization told some friends openly that he could only send anti-Turkish dispatches to America because that is what gets the money.

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 26, 2014 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Rauf, what is your opinion of Turkish censorship laws on the Press and the Arts? Isn't that falsification of both history and culture?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 26, 2014 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

another comment showing that "armenian genocide" is a lie:

Arthur Ponsonby, Falsehood in War-Time, New York 1928

A circular was issued by the War Office inviting reports on war incidents from officers with regard to the enemy and stating that strict accuracy was not essential so long as there was inherent probability (p 20).

Atrocity lies were the most popular of all, especially in this country and America; ... Slander of the enemy is esteemed a patriotic duty (p 22).

rauf (anonymous profile)
February 26, 2014 at 10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do they handwipe?

redbunz (anonymous profile)
March 3, 2014 at 6:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok@ First of all, who cares about Article 301. Why do you "Genocide Peddlers" hypocritically whine, cry, pout and squeal when some idiots acknwoledge Armenian suffering, but ignore the fact that Armenians revolted in Turkey, commited terrorism against Sunni and Alevi villages, Armenian soldiers burned alive Sunni and Alevi little babies and commited acts of terrorism. Why does people ignore the fact that Armenian terrorists in the 1970's committed attacks against Turkish-owned business in So Cal? (I am a So Cal Resident btw, born in the Northeast). I never lived in Turkey or have been raised in Turkey. Why does people ignore how Armenian agressors land-grabbed Karabakh, forcefully expelled 750k Azerbaijanis, commited the Khojaly massacre and now Armenian radicals beg to snitch more land. Yet, when Armenian supremacists see people who want to get to the WHOLE facts about issues. Like, telling them to open their hidden archives, they go crying to other countries to jail people who want to present the WHOLE facts.

When PBS was very close to presenting a beautiful, factual movie called the Armenian Revolt, the Armenian lobby and it's congressional puppets such as Pallone, Schiff, Boxer and Menendez (did you know that Bob Menendez got busted for hiring Sex Offenders as Senate Interns and also got busted for buying Hookers in the Dominican Republic), try so hard to pressure PBS to not air the show and supress Freedom Of Speech. Because Armenian Supremacists/Extremeists fear that their Greater Armenia agenda will fail.

I, as a US Citizen, Born and Raised, of Turkish ancestry, will fight tooth and nail against Armenian Supremacism, Armenian Supremacists and the Greater Armenia agenda. Why should I pander to Armenian allegations? What is the point? Armenians will still hate me because I am born of a certain race. They are fanatics who want to seek revenge, destroy Turkey and wipe Turkey off the map. I will fight against all enemies of Turkey until the day I die. Period. I will also push political correctness aside too.

Anonymous_User (anonymous profile)
March 23, 2014 at 6:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

TheUn-Truth123@ A commenter tried to state that there was casualties on both sides, yet you used diversionary language, because you want to ignore the facts that Armenian terrorists plotted a land grab, wanted to wipe Turkey off the map and still fantasize of a Greater Armenia spanning from the Caspian to the Mediterranean, via trying to silence the other side of the story. Note: Armenian lobbyists were terrified when the "Armenian Revolt" was going to be screened, because they feared that it will expose the facts how Armenian terrorists tried to plot a land grab, how Armenian terrorists started a Revolt against Turkey, how Armenian terrorists sided with Imperialist Forces, as well as how Armenian Supremacists want to snitch land from Turkey (having territorial claims is actually a plot to wipe Turkey off the map). We cannot ignore the facts that there was casualties on both sides, unarmed. Also, in order for Turkish-Armenian normalization to occur. No one has a right to seperate the borders of Turkey. The Lausanne Treaty is non-negotiable.

Anonymous_User (anonymous profile)
March 23, 2014 at 7:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel_Greenspan@ Opression of Kurds? What opression! Did you know that in the early 1990's, the President of Turkey, Turgut Ozal, spoke numerous times, in public, about being ethnically Kurdish. Did you know that a member of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's cabinet, Ismet Inonu, was Kurdish. Did you know that the leader of Turkey's opposition, Kemal Kilicdaroglu, is Kurdish. The fact is, Turkey is a multi-ethnic country and there are many patriotic Turkish citizens of Kurdish background who are loyal to Turkey, who serve in Turkey's army, who are patriotic to Turkey and who believe, Turkey should protect its borders at all costs. But there is a marginal 5-10% of Turkey's Kurds, who believe in the lies of the PKK terrorist group, and their parliamentary puppets, the BDP party, and they claim to fight for democracy, which is a lie, when in reality, the PKK is a Communist Terror Group. If PKK rules the Kurdish regions, then we will have a Cuban/ or Venezuelan style political system in the Middle East. It is not a crime against humanity for Turkey to defend itself from terrorist groups. I wish the current government of Turkey tried to wipe the PKK terrorist group off the face of the earth. But sadly, the stupid Prime Minister of Turkey got pressured by the viciously Turkophobic EU to negotiate with the PKK, which wants to break up Turkey's borders.

Also, the AKP/Erdogan party is collaborating with Barzani to split up Turkey's borders. Plus the EU put AKP/Erdogan in power, so they can split up Turkey's borders as well.

The fact is, Nationalists DO NOT rule Turkey. If AKP/Erdogan is so nationalist, why is it that when there are peaceful events to commemorate May 19th Independence day, police beat up peaceful commemorators. But when PKK terrorist supporters hold rallies, police does nothing. (Note: There is a difference between an overwhelming majority of Turkish citizens of Kurdish background who are against PKK/BDP lies and there are marginal groups who support PKK terrorism.) (Look up and see what I mean). I am not racist, I just believe Turkey has a right to maintain it's borders as is and fight against all plots to break up it's borders (these plots which are hidden under the disguises of "Democracy, Justice and Civil Society"). That is all.

Anonymous_User (anonymous profile)
March 23, 2014 at 7:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel Greenspan@ Another thing, you also said that Ataturk was inspired by Hitler and is a monster. Wrong my friend. Go to Neo-Nazi websites where they reiterate Islamist Conspiracy theories about Ataturk being Jewish. Also Ataturk was a brilliant leader, who heroicly built a Republic out of the ashes of a collapsing empire, was a military genius, stopped imperialists from wiping Turkey off the map. The only people who don't like him are Turk haters and Anti-Turkish racists, faschist, bigots and so on. Also, people who support Al-Qaida and the Muslim Brotherhood hate him too. He can compared to great men like Ronald Reagan, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr, Cesar Chavez, Dalai Lama and so forth. You sir should know that even Bill Clinton spoke endearingly about the Great Freedom Fighter, Mustafa Kemal. Why do you think there are anti-government protests spreading like wildfires in Turkey? Because the EU, Barzani and other Turk-haters are supporting a regime which wants to destroy/dismantle Mustafa Kemal's ideas.

Btw, fighting against the PKK terrorist group does not consist against a crime against humanity. This is no different then the US defending itself from Al-Qaeda and fighting Al-Qaeda. As USA has a right to fight Al-Qaeda, Turkey has a right to fight the PKK.

Anonymous_User (anonymous profile)
March 23, 2014 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do they handwipe?

redbunz (anonymous profile)
March 3, 2014 at 6:03 p.m.

Sir, any civilized society uses a bidet in their toilet. Perhaps if you had a bidet in your toilet, yer buns would not be red and irritated.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
March 23, 2014 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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