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Jews Against the War


Friday, July 18, 2014
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Unfortunately, Israel and Palestine are in the news daily with reports (as of Monday morning) of over 10 Palestinians dead and rockets going to and from Gaza. On Saturday, I, with my colleagues from the local chapter of Jewish Voice for Peace, stood outside the Farmers Market to let people know that we care about the Palestinian people who are dying and the Israelis who are also living in fear. The most painful words people told me over and over was that they were shocked that Jews would care about what happens to the Palestinian people.

We, as American Jews, oppose Israel’s war on the Palestinian people. We must hold Israel accountable. This is a one-sided war of destruction, driven by the Israeli government’s hunger for land and fueled by the corporate desire for profit.

The 1.8 million Palestinians have been stateless for decades and are being held captive as prisoners inside of Gaza. They are being bombarded by Israel with some of the most advanced weapons in the world; they have no shelters to run to and no way to leave.

We of Jewish Voice for Peace say no to collective punishment. Over 77 percent of those killed in Gaza have been civilians; 30 percent have been children, reports the UN. Over 1,000 have been wounded, and hospitals, handicap care facilities, geriatric facilities, and family homes have been targeted. Gaza has been under siege for seven years. The Palestinians have lived under occupation for three generations.

We want Americans to know that $8.5 million a day of American tax dollars go to the Israeli war machine. Calls for boycott, divestment, and sanctions against Israel and companies that profit from the Israeli occupation of Palestine have intensified and are now more important than ever.

Jewish Voice for Peace is a national, grassroots organization dedicated to achieving a just and lasting peace that recognizes the aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians for security and self-determination.

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Independent Discussion Guidelines

Most Americans don't realize that the israeli government got taken over by right-wingers circa 2002; and that many Jewish citizens of israel (who haven't left) oppose the government's domestic policies and the policies towards the Palestinians.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

wow .. just even a little bit of context here would do everyone a lot of good.

Israeli civilians and school children are being targeted and bombarded by Hamas which places all of its rocket launchers, artillery, and command and control sites, etc. inside schools, mosques, and apartment buildings. - carefully read that sentence again - . So if Israel fires back to stop the massacre of its people, innocent Palestinians will be killed.

Before Israel fires back to take out these weapons targeted at its own innocent civilians, they take precautions to preserve Palestinian life. People are warned to evacuate the building and get to safety. All landlines and cell phones associated with anybody in a building are called, and text messages are even sent. These precautions are taken so there is a minimum loss of life. Israel even shoots dud bombs which contain no explosives on top of targeted buildings to make certain people get the warning and get out.

Then, Israel does indeed use "the most advanced weapons in the world," — — to target military targets, as opposed to the indiscriminate bombing and shelling of school children as done to those in Israel. Finally, the Iron Dome technology intercepts all the rockets and artillery aimed at civilian areas before the Hamas weoponry can do harm.

evolution (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 6:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

correct, evolution, and "just even a little bit of context here would do" YOU some good. I support the right of Israeli to exist, I have worked there, wonderful people live there, Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. In the current situtation exactly 2 Israelis have been killed (both right at the Gaza strip line), and no rockets have hit Tel Aviv (several shot down). The IDF has killed over 220 Gazans, including at least 35 children -- read this: 35 children, and have wounded over 2000. Get a grip and evolve your views!
How wonderful the Jewish Voice for Peace is speaking out, I honor them.
No honor to Netanyahu, his vicious Foreign Minister Lieberman (a criminal), and those Israelis who refuse to even discuss withdrawing from Israel's ILLEGAL COLONIES (incorrectly labeled "settlements") in the West Bank. Withdraw to the 1967 line after negotiations.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 11:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This (the American Way of funding foreign governments/war machines/dictators) is a major reason I vote Libertarian.

I don't agree with everything the Libertarian Party says, nor are they the only party against War Machine dollars, but at least by not voting for the mainstream politicians, I am doing my part to not kill innocent people.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 1:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

NYTimes now reports 65 children killed in Gaza and "The Palestinian death toll topped 280, plus 2,000 wounded, as airstrikes continued over the relatively contained ground operations."
Meanwhile, focus turns away from the main cause of all this horror: how this ACCIDENTAL EMPIRE (Gorem Gershenberg's book) expands its ILLEGAL COLONIES in the West Bank (conquered in the 1967 Six-Day War), illegally expands Israeli apartment blocks into E. Jerusalem, and refuses to come to serious negotiations despite efforts by many parties.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 2:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Netanyahu has betrayed his country and committed crimes against humanity. He shamefully cloaks himself in the horrors his ancestors suffered while committing the same horror on other innocent peoples. Shame on the government of Israel for being the condemnation of the world upon the tribes of Israel, they are traitors as is anyone else who supports their agenda.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 3:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This is one of the best opinion articles on here in a while.

Not only is it perceptive, it is something that very few people know or care about and so many who do take the wrong side by defending Israel's military actions.

Nobody on the Palestinian side of the debate supports Palestine's desperate and relatively unfruitful attempts at attacking the Israeli settlements that have been built on land around resources that belonged the the Palestinians via a UN charter and was subsequently taken from them by force. While I don't support the UN charter either I certainly can't support bulldozing Palestinian homes and building Jewish settlement properties there instead.

Map for reference:
http://www.jvpchicago.org/sites/defau...

The Palestinians are collectively kept in what is virtually a concentration camp and with them having so many innocent people and children killed all the time, what Israel's government is essentially doing is creating a recipe for extremism. I say 'Israel's government' because the people of Israel are not doing anything except for voting in politicians and just as it's not right to hold the Palestinians collectively responsible you can't really hold Israelis collectively responsible, especially when many of them are not making a completely informed decision or may not even have voted for those politicians.

The other benefit of bring up this issue is that it shows how good the mainstream media in this country is of hiding things from the American public that we are involved in. Not only do we support Israel, but we support Israel's enemies.

Do we have an open immigration policy for Israelis? We really should. I support them being able to live in Israel too as the did peacefully for quite some time before the last 2/3 of the 20th century, but as it is clearly hostile territory due to all of the violence over the years it sure would be nice for them to have the option.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 4:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok, now let me put on my tin foil hat for a minute, whatever tin foil is, I'm still not quite sure. I have this stuff called aluminum foil though.

Anyway, let's talk about genocide for a minute. How do you commit it from a Democracy, or essentially how do you get popular support for carrying it out?

False flags. You trick your own country into thinking they are being attacked and you use extreme deadly force in attacking the opponents.

Now, it could be they just have enough extremists in Palestine from all the decades of killing, bulldozing and stealing land and they work really hard on getting the material for these rockets and Israel doesn't have to commit false flags afterall....but not committing false flags is not really in Israel's nature (or is it nurture?)

Anyway. Israel funded and started Hamas. Ya, look it up. Crazy.. so supposedly they funded it to become an enemy to Hezbollah and now they just attack Israel. But what if they still control Hamas? See, to me, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Palestinian extremists would continue to hide munitions and such in their own civilian structures. I mean, what is their goal with that really, the international community feels sorry for them and......where has that gotten them all of these years? You think they'd still be using this losing strategy where they have to watch their own people die all the time? I'm sorry, not buying it.

More evidence:

Senator Rand Paul recently introduced a bill called "The Stand With Israel Act" that would remove US financial aid to Palestine. This was a troll attempt, he knew that the bill would get no support. In fact, AIPAC even came out against the bill. I would not be surprised if that money flowed straight into some 'Palestinian' extremists who fire rockets that will do nothing but cause more retaliation from Israel and are told to hide the munitions and such in civilian structures so that Israel has an excuse to continue committing genocide. That makes way more sense to me, at least.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 4:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon: Maybe it's my A.D.D. but I don't quite follow your last paragraph. Please explain why AIPAC was against it.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 5:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

right here is where you lose it, as always, loon: "Anyway. Israel funded and started Hamas." kaka Read a few books, then come back with intelligent comments. trollish.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 6:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I love the comical idea of proportional response for Israel. So the fact that the lunatic Palestinian fringe shoots hundreds of rockets, without regard to who they try and hit and without having the brains to aim them properly is a defense of their tactics?
Whether or not Israel has been hijacked by a bunch or right wingers has nothing to do with their current right to defend themselves.
The same group of lame brains that blame Israel also thought "Arab Spring" was going to bring happiness and joy to the middle east instead of mass murder of Christians and totalitarian Muslim facism.

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 7:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The extreme right wing zealots who now run Israel (who confuse political Zionism with religious Zionism) have great deal to do with this onrunning conflict...study the Six-Day War, nomore, then you can stop with the lame commentary.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's all about "fairness" these days nomor.It's not "fair" that Americans enjoy a higher standard of living than our neighbors to the south.It's not "fair" that Israel responds to the thousands of cardboard rockets randomly raining down on them with limited precise strikes with warnings of where and when they will occur.Which makes me wonder if Hamas uses these warnings to shepherd children TO these areas in order to increase the number of children casualties and gain international sympathy.

garfish (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 8:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hamas is committed to the annihilation of an entire People, while Israel is dedicated to the preservation of their State. That is a simplistic viewpoint but a useful starting point. Another is the fact that Palestine is not nor was ever a State in any modern (or, arguably, historic) sense. Hence, there is no "occupation." evolution is accurate in his representation of the two sides' war tactics: Hamas intentionally targets innocents, attacks without warning (including breaking cease-fires) and expresses no remorse, while Israel routinely offers medical services, gives ample warning of impending attacks and attempts to eliminate innocent injury and death. Although Israel is not without reproach, they do not strike the first blow in armed conflict.
DrDan (and Ken_Volok), I agree with your disdain for Netanyahu and Lieberman, though all politicians across the globe should be mistrusted (nod to billclausen). However, it is unrealistic to return, geopolitically, to 1967. Things change over half a century, particularly in areas of unrest. I must say that Israel, over the years, has far surpassed the US in their efforts for assimilation and compromise with a militarily outclassed enemy. That takes restraint and says something about humanitarianism and class. Hamas exhibits none of these redeeming qualities.
Murder is, generally, wrong. Innocent murder is certainly a terrible act but using innocent human shields to protect yourself so you can continue to murder or placing your arms among innocent people to garner more sympathy is worse. It is absolutely despicable.

jjfischer (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I will never defend Hamas or their tactics, agree fischer. I do not agree, though, that it's unrealistic or impossible to return to the 1967 line...with a few exceptions for the really big "colonies" close to Jerusalem but in West Bank...specific areas could be traded for these incursions.
How can you begin to compare say, US efforts to assimilate the Native Americans, say, with Israeli efforts to assimilate "a militarily outclassed enemy"? Further, while the British "Mandate of Palestine" wasn't an actual state, true, the "State" of Israel hadn't existed for approx 2000 years when it was (happily I say) reconstituted in 1947/48. Modern Israel absolutely does "occupy" the West Bank and is slowly and inexorably filling it with Israeli/Jewish COLONISTS... something most western and European countries gave up by the end of W.W. II. Have you read Avi Shalit's MY ISRAEL?
I have only been to Israel 3 times, so cannot really verify your statement "that Israel, over the years, has far surpassed the US in their efforts for assimilation and compromise "... surpassed the USA how?

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/S...

Ron Paul: Hamas Was Started By Israel (3 minute House floor speech)
http://nation.foxnews.com/ron-paul/20...

"In it, we discover that Israel “started” Hamas as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat... and...blames the CIA for radicalizing Muslims and the US for supplying weapons and funds that “kill Palestinians”"
-----------------------------------------------
billclausen "Loon: Maybe it's my A.D.D. but I don't quite follow your last paragraph. Please explain why AIPAC was against it."

Because the money flows to extremist organizations in Palestine who use extremely scary yet largely ineffective weapons against Israel which creates an excuse to continue the occupation of Palestine and continue the genocidal conflicts against the Palestinian people. My guess is that some, but perhaps not all of the Israeli deaths are staged and the rockets may even be purposely fired into uninhabitable areas by pro-Israeli forces within Hamas. They would be referred to as "double-agents" for Israel within the Hamas forces, another tactic that Israel has proven to not be opposed to for their own gain.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gaza is essentially a concentration camp for Palestinians - all Jews were required to leave a few years ago so there was no risk of killing Jews in actions such as these. The Israelis have fenced off Gaza, have armed patrols all along the border and made it impossible for relief supplies to be delivered by sea. Believing that Palestinians in Gaza are firing anything at the Israelis would be like suggesting that the inmates at Dachau were an armed threat to Germany..

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 3:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hamas fired dozens if rockets a day into Israel, for 7 days, before Israel began firing back.

Hamas is deliberately trying to kill civilians, which is a war crime.

Hamas is firing rockets and shelling Israel from behind human shields (Mosque's, homes, etc) which is a war crime.

No one is talking about Hamas war crimes or Israel's restraint for 7 days before staring to defend itself.

Israel texts and calls Gaza residents to warn them to evacuate before bombing.

Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel. Israel does not call for the destruction of Palestine.

Hamas declined a Egypt brokered cease fire, Israel did not.

So I guess it's just super cool and fun these days to be anti-Israel while Palestinians cheer and celebrate the death of three young Jewish men and the mother of one of the Palestinian suspects is on TV saying she is proud of her son if he in fact did the crime.

Standing around the Farmer's Market is your right - but offering zero solutions while not speaking loudly in support of Israel's initial 7 days of restraint and not condemning Palestinians dancing and cheering the murder of three you men makes your cause look totally illegitimate. Some might call you self-hating. (not me, but some).

realitycheck88 (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken,

Israel has been firmly in the hands of the "right wing" going all the way back to 1973 when the Likud Party was formed. All of Likud's leaders, Ariel Sharon, Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, etc. had been members of Zionist terror groups in the 1940's - the Jewish Agency, Haganah, Irgun, and the Stern Gang.

Between 1939 and 1948 these terrorists used committed over 500 acts of violence using bombs, boobytraps, landmines, kidnappings, murders, torture, and assassination against the British, Palestinians and even a U.N. emissary. It could be argued that nothing has changed since 1939.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

billclausen,

Ron Paul's Libertarian view of Israel's responsibility to finance and handle its own affairs made him unwelcome at AIPAC and an outcast among congressmen who gave Netanyahu 29 standing ovations during his speech in May of 2011.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 5:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

realitycheck, my comments certainly weren't "Israel bashing", but they did bash the current political LEADERSHIP of Israel [7/18 11:16pm]. I dislike dewdly's inane crap, but he's just an inciting troll, and loon's crazy as most posters can see.
Background is crucial, and simply sticking to the current tragedy and basing views on the current "lawn mowing" (IDF actual term) on Gaza/Hamas leads to nothing.
jjfischer's thoughtful post is good reading, and I stand by my post just below his/hers [7/19 11:57am]. Arabs attacked Israel to kick off the 1967 Six-Day War, which still doesn't justify hanging onto the conquered West Bank. Western countries gave up "colonization" after W W II, but Israel flies in the face of this -- her gradual encroachment, piece by piece, illegal colony-settlement by colony-settlement, will end up with total Israeli control of the West Bank in 30 - 50 years. I abhor Hamas's tactics and their extremism -- you realize Netanyahu doesn't want to completely take out Hamas since much more nasty groups lay behind them? Israel gave Hamas/Gaza a "lawn mowing" around Nov. '12, so this has happened before, and it will happen again, and again. How is that the young and defenseless --both sides -- end up dying for the sins of their elders every time?
Come to the negotiating table, discuss the fate of Jerusalem FIRST, pull back all but the very largest COLONIES, guarantee Israel's security, and create two states. Jerusalem according to the UN declaration in 1948 is to be an International City, and capital of neither country.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 9:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

now IDF has killed 336 in Gaza on day 12; and yeah, Hamas keeps firing rockets with little precision, they just injured two men and killed 2 children in "an Arab bedouin village" .... clearly, the so-called "leaders" of both sides have become functionally insane.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0719/6317...

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 12:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan

Ok, so you call me out about saying that Israel started Hamas, I post an article from the Wall Street Journal and a congressional floor speech which back up my opinion which is a completely valid opinion to hold and for that I get called "crazy" without any sort of intellectual or factual rebuttal?

Do you think that makes you look good here?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 3:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The WSJ article is interesting,but it makes no claim that Israel "started" Hamas. What it does discuss is how the Israelis' policies of playing various Palestinian factions against one another may have contributed to the groups that evolved Hamas becoming further entrenched at the expense of the more secular groups such as Fatah. This certainly may be true.
The US has done similar things in the Middle East, Afghanistan etc., playing off rivalries between ethnic, religious and tribal factions for its own interests. Various former CIA operatives and such have written about the "blow-back" we may have experienced as a result of these sometimes bungled policies. This does not mean that Israel "started" Hams or that the CIA "created" al-Qaeda. Only the constantly conspiracy-minded give these events such a reading.
Key point from the article: "Hamas traces its roots back to the Muslim Brotherhood.."
There are lots of books out there on the origins of the MB, the somewhat related rise of Wahhabism that are worth reading,but are unlikely to change anyone's fixed mindset or tendency to seek conspiracies and plots everywhere.

zappa (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 7:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

* evolved "into." Must remember to reread before posting.

zappa (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 7:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

you're so loopy, loony, that I could care less if my no response makes me 'look good here' or not. Thanks zappa for taking the time, basically the WSJ piece "does not mean that Israel 'started' Hams or that the CIA 'created' al-Qaeda. Only the constantly conspiracy-minded give these events such a reading."
Look, loon, you are full of conspiracy theses, we're all bored to death of this bullsh!t...do some reading, most complex issues don't have single solutions, but you need this to keep yourself going. Yeah, I know, you type fast, but you think hardly at all. E.g. do you know what Wahabism or Salafism is, or the Muslim Brotherhood...? It takes time, thinking, you just like to gush on the threads. too bad.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's been said that disproportionality is a political goal of Palestinian governments. Their garage rockets harrass the Jewish population but rarely kill anyone, and then in response Israel smashes up Gaza, turning world opinion against them (which is supposedly the ultimate goal of Palestinian govts.) Well, maybe. Personally, I'd guess that Palestinian warlords have more immediate goals, for example stimulating donations from foreign Arab sources.

But dead civilians are powerful. Zionist zealots during WWII wanted a high Jewish body count, so that world powers would give Palestine to them after the war. So said Nathan Schwalb of the Jewish Agency in Switzerland, adding "Rak b'dam tihyu lanu haaretz - only through [our] blood will the land be ours." There was a Zionist slogan, with variations, that "One cow in Palestine is worth all the Jews in Poland."

A pox on both their houses. Why should USA get dragged into such a vortex? Israel is using American-gifted whiz-bangs, and all the terrorists know it. But Israel treats American high officials with open contempt. Netanyahu was caught on mic telling Lieberman "Bitch better have my money" (loose translation.) Our elected officials curry favor so as not to end up on the wrong side of our Jewish mass media machine and certain "New York money people" (euphemism) who vote with their checkbooks (early and often.)

A lot of American Jews are getting tired of status quo, and are publicly dissociating themselves. Wouldn't it be great if American non-Jews also said "peep"? (Away from the anonymous blogosphere, I mean.)

We're asking for a nuke to go off in an American port, if we keep looking like rubes in Israeli eyes.

atomic_state (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Two nukes.

atomic_state (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Public and private divestment from Israel would probably go a long way. But so long as AIPAC owns the United States Congress, that will be an uphill struggle.

Based on the latest pro-AIPAC blogs, I predict we'll soon see US officials de-emphasizing Israel's actions in Gaza and an attempt at re-focusing attention on Hamas.

And so the game of proportionality continues ...

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

Politics is conspiratorial.

The term "conspiracy theory" is used to discourage people who question the causes of social conflict, war, violence, assassination, theft, economic crises, and foreign alliances.

The power to control public opinion and suppress free inquiry is in the hands of political conspirators whose self-serving machinations over the last hundred years are protected by those who ridicule others as "conspiracy theorists".

Your argument against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is weak because it is too narrow. Israeli genocide against the Palestinians was predictable when the British promised a "homeland" in Palestine for European Jews in exchange for bringing the U.S. into the war against Germany. That conspiracy is ongoing, multi-faceted, and its progeny prolific. You are performing a valuable service by keeping all those loony " conspiracy theorists" at bay.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Watch this bbc documentary on the attack on the uss liberty by israel and then tell me israel doesnt perform false flags.
http://youtu.be/kjOH1XMAwZA
There are plenty of israelis who oppose their fascist racist government, but you will never hear about it because our entire mainstream news media is run by you know who. That is undeniable.

redbunz (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 6:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Palestinians are not now and never have been a military threat to the Jewish invaders. Israel possesses, courtesy of the U.S. government, one of the largest, most sophisticated, military forces in the world to "defend" only 7 million people.

It has been difficult for Israel to project the image of perennial victim when their opponents - those they have dispossessed - have no military at all. So they invent stories to hide the disparity and feign danger. That need explains their creation of the mythical, Muslim suicide bomber. It doesn't matter that modern technology makes it totally unnecessary to kill the bomber because the gullible public will just assume that Arabs are too dumb to know how to use a remote detonater - just like they are too dumb to hit any targets with their "rockets".

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 8:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I get worried anytime we appear to agree, dewdly, and we do NOT agree. You are as usual WRONG,e.g.when writing "the British promised a "homeland" in Palestine for European Jews in exchange for bringing the U.S. into the war against Germany. " Baloney. The Balfour Decl. was decades before 1939 (around 1918 if memory serves); we got into WW II because Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor and FDR had been seeking ways to get us to help UK (remember Lend-lease and the 50 destroyers?) and go vs. the monster Hitler, and Japan and Nazi Germany were formally allied.
I do not go so far as saying Palestinian genocide, but would use the term Palestinian apartheid. My view may seem "narrow" but I have respect for both peoples, for the right of Israel to exist, and the right of the West Bank Palestinians to have their own state. What's going on in Gaza is quite ugly, but yeah, a way for Hamas to get funds and achieve legitimacy at the expense of their own leaders. Their leaders are in Qatar and Egypt, not with those suffering whom they urge to stay there...despicable cowards.
You are very close to anti-Semitism and as usual a Know-Nothing.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

World War I. 1914-1918. The promise was given by Chaim Weizmann to Lord Rothschild and fulfilled by Jewish pressure on Woodrow Wilson. There is no other explanation for why Wilson, who campaigned on the slogan, "He kept us out of war", would have joined that European conflict.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Certainly there are other much more reasonable explanations for Wilson leading us into WW I, dewdly, than your uninformed crap! -- pressure from Teddy Roosevelt, successful German U-boat attacks, the sinking of the Lusitania in particular, traditional US friendliness with UK and esp. France. The promise wasn't from Weizmann, it was a theoretical commitment by the UK to someday find a homeland for world Jewry: see Nov. 2, 1917, Balfour Declaration made by Lord Balfour in the British gov't at the time: for more info see http://history1900s.about.com/cs/holo... .
This controversial commitment by the UK led to the League of Nations giving Britain the "Mandate of Palestine" in 1922. Today, leaders of Israel have pursued illegal colonies into the West Bank portion and apartment blocks in E. Jerusalem, occupying in effect the putative country (Mandate) of Palestine, led by Ariel Sharon, some years after the Six-Day War in which Israel conquered the West Bank. I visited Jerusalem after working as an archaeologist in Israel (Tel Dor) in 1981, even gaining admittance into the Dome of the Rock Islamic sanctuary (not a mosque, the "Further Mosque" is next door, the Al Aqsa Mosque), and the Israeli incursions and ugly stealing of Palestinian lands had barely begun and it didn't seem too unusual for an anglo Calif. guy to enter a sacred Islamic shrine at that time. Things have changed; and a pox on leaders of Hamas (sinister bastards) and Israel (Netanyahu and Libermann are war criminals). As always, the children and civilians on both sides (mostly in Gaza) bear the brunt of these vicious nationalists/Palestinian terrorists/crazed 'Third Temple" political Zionists.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 20, 2014 at 11:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you Barbara for helping others notice this has nothing to do with religion. It's all about power, governments, territories, borders and how they corrupt the human spirit. If only we could hold our own country to account for it's behavior.

spacey (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 12:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan

Yes I know a lot about those things, checkout the BBC documentary called "The Power of Nightmares", it is very interesting and helps validate many of my opinions on the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Powe...

Part 1

https://archive.org/details/ThePowerO...

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 12:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dr Dan "the sinking of the Lusitania in particular" brought us into WWI

Ding ding ding!

Of course, the Germans took the courtesy to warn US citizens that they were planning on sinking the Lusitania before it even set off:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/81...

Not to mention, it was later discovered that the Lusitania contained hidden munitions in the hull that were being smuggled into Britain, that sounds like a tactic that many here accuse the Palestinians of using - hiding war munitions in civilian targets so that when they go after the war munitions and kill the civilians they get an upper hand to help convince their side that we need to initiate more violence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

"Her sinking with the loss of almost 1,200 lives caused such outrage that it propelled the U.S. into the First World War.

But now divers have revealed a dark secret about the cargo carried by the Lusitania on its final journey in May 1915.

Munitions they found in the hold suggest that the Germans had been right all along in claiming the ship was carrying war materials and was a legitimate military target."

More government lies proving the "conspiracy theorists" are right.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 12:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There are 28 pages of secret documents on 9/11 that "re-arranged" the understanding that Congressional Representative Thomas Massie had about the events that day and they relate to what we are discussing here.

Please watch this press conference the congressman gave and see his reaction to reading this 28 page document:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...

If you are attacking "conspiracy theorists" you are really an enemy to truth because every day we are witnessing more and more information coming out that slowly chips away at the establishment narrative and is moving people towards a different understanding of geopolitics. If you're actively challenging our viewpoint through name calling and bullying rather than at least attempting intellectual and factual debate then you are deceiving others as well as yourself.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 1:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

And now for something completely different.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 1:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 1:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No Ken, actually, it's the same. I post links for things like BBC documentaries, occasionally mainstream media articles where they are forced to admit conspiracy theorists have always been right about something or other, pictures of verifiable historical records and other legitimate factual and sourced information then later I get accused of posting grainy youtube videos with scary music. It's never going to change, many of you will never change your mind until the majority is confronted and must acknowledge it and you yourself will be forced to do so as well.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 1:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

loon: "conspiracy theorists have always been right about something or other" -- reread this, loon.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 2:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Loonpot, Has this ever happened to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_pC2T...

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Get it? "Loonpot" because you smoke pot?

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hamas gets a pass because they are too stupid to plot trajectories for the hundreds of rockets they routinely shoot at Israel? Seriously?
The supporters of Arab Spring seem to be the same people bashing Israel without acknowledging the intentional martyrdom of the Palestinians by the majority of the countries in the Middle East. Oh yea, except Egypt because they too tried Arab Spring and the happy Muslims slaughtered the Coptic Christians. At least the military government in Egypt understands that if Israel is weakened the entire regions will blow up as there will be no regulating force big enough to stop the zealots.

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

loonpot: "many of you will never change your minds..." -- I certainly won't based on your crackPOT single-issue conspiracy nonsense... I know, I know, he was shot from the grassy knoll and the Zapruder tape proves... and we never really landed on the moon... The Malaysian crash is completely faked (see: wag the dog)... Ya get stoned, ya type fast, ya read a coupla lines then wham away on the keyboard, post, and wait breathlessly... Seriously, read some sober books.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 7:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You can lead a horse to water.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

But a pencil must be lead.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pathetic dr dan, truly pathetic. I guess you have never heard ot the term ad hominem. When you cant dispute conspiracy FACTS, bring up the moon landing, or ufos. Let me guess, next you will accuse him of being on drugs, oh wait, you did. Ok heres one you havent used yet, he lives in his moms basement. You are welcome.

redbunz (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I got too heavy with loon, but I've wrestled with him plenty and he never has anything BUT conspiracy theses crap. You've had numbers of comments eliminated by staff at Indy (they do this rarely), so don't tell me about nasty! how bout this one to Dubuque:
"You are a giant putz saltzer."
typical

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

The Lusitania was the pretext for entering the war - a false justification to get enough public acceptance to proceed. The U.S. newspapers in 1916 were uniformly pro-German. In 1916 Britain had essentially lost the war. Germany offered a status quo ante to Britain and it was only the Zionists' quid pro quo deal to bring the U.S. into the war for Britain that kept the war going for another two years. Britain could not have promised a Jewish homeland in Palestine without some assurance that they would actually defeat Germany and its ally Turkey.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Neither US newspapers nor the public were uniformly "Pro-Hun" as the Germans were called at that time. Quite the opposite.. Try to get your history right.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I wouldn't say "quite the opposite", exactly..

The US was pretty diverse back then, a lot of Germans in the midwest and a lot of Irish who were looking to separate from Britain.

Then you had a US President that had just won based on not going to war at all.

http://blog.library.villanova.edu/dig...

http://www.shmoop.com/wwi/politics.html

Entering WWI required, I'm guessing, a lot of media propaganda and a false flag attack, purposely sending in civilians to war territory with weapons where they knew they would get blown up.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken,

The Jews in Germany owned the newspapers, in addition to their massive business and banking interests. Those interests explain their support of Germany, but they also hoped that Germany would take down the Czar.

For the first two years of the war the propaganda was all pro-German and it is the sudden about-face in 1916 that needs to be explained. By 1916 Germany had essentially won the war. The French troops had mutinied. The British were without ammunition and food. The Russians were drifting home. With victory in hand why would Germany's Jewish-owned press turn to stories of "Huns" cutting off children's hands?

Answer: Zionist aspirations. A deal was made with the British to bring American troops in to win the war in exchange for a promise to give European Jews a "homeland" in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration was that promise and a contingent of 117 Jews represented Zionist interests in the post-war division of the spoils.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 3:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wong country dewdly. But thanks for again showing your true colors Mr. Brown Shirt.

Americans in 1916 weren't reading German newspapers; they were reading American ones.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 3:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By 1915 documented German war crimes in Belgium had already turned US public opinion against Germany and the Prussian death cult. As usual Doody errr Dewdley has no idea what he is talking about and false flag Loon is along for the ride.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, they were reading American newspapers, apparently many were owned by German 'Jews' (although I'd classify them more as Rothschild bankers).. but I believe is what dewdly was going for.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 4:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually Herschel, dewdly specifically brought up how public opinion was being shifted during that time by war propaganda coming out of the region and he gave a pretty good motivation for them to do so. I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs between 1915 and 1916, but it seems pretty clear to me at least that in 1914 most Americans were either against going to war entirely or were actually supporting Germany.

In order to invade Iraq in 1990 there was a hoax instigated by the daughter of Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US Nayirah al-Sabah regarding Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of incubators and this all turned out to be a hoax.

The real story about Iraq and Kuwait was that Iraq attacked Kuwait because Kuwait was slant-drilling into Iraqi oil reserves and they had asked them to stop and they did not. The US wanted Saddam out because he was no longer cooperating with the international community that had help prop him up as a dictator originally. So the US and Kuwait teamed up and created some BS war propaganda just they always do and the US invaded Iraq.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yeah Dewdly was trying to introduce some good old American Anti-Semitism.

Sorry to disappoint you dewdly but the gentlemen's agreement around here is we eat Nazis for breakfast.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 4:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken,

Germans were not vilified in the U.S. press until it was necessary to get Americans to accept sending their sons and their treasure to fight a foreign war in which they had no stake. That is the purpose of war propaganda; you ought to know that - you've been fed enough of it.

If Americans had been asked to take sides when Russia invaded Finland the vast number would have had no opinion at all about either side and the whole conflict could have come and gone without Americans taking notice, much less taking sides. In 1914, not one American in 100,000 could have told you what the Great War was all about and even fewer Americans could tell you that today. Propaganda isn't truth and it isn't news. The U.S. press did not need atrocity propaganda against Germany until 1916.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You know zilch about history or the culture of the period. After the war was over nobody knew what it was about except money for armaments corporations. Whether or not the US needed "atrocity propaganda"; the Germans were willingly supplying it.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well if bankers who labelled themselves as Jewish (Rothschilds) happened to own a lot of US newspapers and had other German Jewish people running them and they spread pro-German propaganda as one might expect, followed by a seemingly counter-intuitive run of anti-German propaganda for the purposes of inducing America into the war to defeat Germany....and if these incredibly wealthy Rothschilds went so far to support and fund the rise of Hitler as well as help ensure the Holocaust (in part via Prescott Bush, George Bush Sr.'s father, small world, I know..) with the ultimate goal of ensuring a Jewish Palestinian state....then saying that is not anti-Semitic. What would be anti-Semitic is being racist against all Jewish people or having some strong bias against them. Or funding the rise of Hitler, or using Jewish people as political pawns by forcing them to go live in hostile territory and be put in danger just so the elite can have more economic and political control in a certain geographic region..

I'd be willing to bet dewdly has nothing against Jewish people but realizes they have been placed into a global plot by nefarious globalist organizations which have held various monikers such as the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, global bankers, elite and has at times involved high level Free Masonry, the Vatican and probably even the LDS among countless other organizations, corporations and governments.

Jewish people have been and continue to be victims. That's one reason why I think we we should completely open up immigration to every single Israeli citizen who wants to move here, if they want to. We should have done that after WWII. Or they can continue to live where they are if they are so attached to their home or religion that they are willing to live where there are rockets raining down on them, I'm not forcin' anybody to do anything.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel,

"War crimes" documented by whom? Adjudicated and punished by whom?

Americans were not interested in atrocity propaganda generated in Europe, they were just grateful to be thousands of miles away. In 1914-1915 no American felt compelled to avenge the deaths of Belgian babies who had been tossed in the air and impaled by German bayonets.

War propaganda that is designed to justify sending one's sons into battle usually is seen for what it is, but the follow-up campaign of public censure is what really brings people around. When people believe that everyone else is on board with outrage, patriotism, and duty they are reluctant to stand apart. That is the primary function of the media poll - to make people believe the stories about bayoneted babies or suicide bombers because the polls show an "evolution" of public opinion. If one continues to resist then he will be labeled a "Nazi", "anti-Semite", "denier", "homophobe", "racist", "hater," and/or "misogynist."


dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If one continues to resist then he will be labeled a "Nazi", "anti-Semite", "denier", "homophobe", "racist", "hater," and/or "misogynist."

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 6:55 p.m.

Or worse yet "Republican".

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 7:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is a fun topic, (Atrocities, anti-Semitism, racism, war and so forth) but when all the yelling is said and done, the American Sheeple will salivatingly tune in to MSNBC or Fox News, take orders from the respective Mother Ships of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, and vote for candidates who will continue to fund the War Machine.

Just as a side note: King Edward the 8th and his wife Wallis Simpson were good buddies of Adolf Hitler.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 7:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Again, great letter, Barbara. Right now, 566 Palestinians dead, and 27 Israelis. 20:1 kill ratio. Pretty sick of Netanyahu noting Palestinians' "telegenetically dead" stuff. Israel's right to exist is very important; the ongoing killing in Gaza is murderous. 25 of the 27 Israeli dead are soldiers entering Gaza.
EastBeach has it: as long as AIPAC owns our Congress, and J Street and more responsible American Jews fail to make their voices heard...expect more of the same BS.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When Jeremiah crossed the Jordan River and "Blew their horns...until the walls came tumbling down" The "Chosen People" have been killing the indigenous peoples of the "Holly Land"... calling it their "promised Land" ....They got "God's Laws" from Mosses... along with his brother the "Golden Calf Maker Guy" never made it across the Jordan! The Laws were never upheld! No killing, No coveting others property...(wives, goats.ect) no Gods before me ... It does not say anything about killing those who don't share your suspension of disbelief ... Or. Stealing all their. Stuff !!! However that is what the Israelites did way back in the forty years after they fled Egypt.... Now fast forward to the twentieth Century the "Zionist" blew up hotels bombed market places and did all kinds of crazy terrorist stuff during the British occupation....I am not making any of this up! In 1948 the Population of "Palestine" was approximately eighty percent "Arab" in Jerusalem were Christians and Muslims lived in harmony with the Jews... Then the UN pressured by Harry Truman gave the "Jews Israel" President Truman should have given the Jews Florida!!!! They could have had Disney build A Holly Land replica there compleat with a parting Red Sea .... But no. With loud speakers mounted on trucks they drove through the streets of Jerusalem announcing " Run for your lives the Jews are using Gas! You become what you hate, is so true. The Israeli Jews have become the "Brown Shirts" and Gaza is their Warsaw.

GEO (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 9:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe it was JOSHUA who got the walls of Jericho "to come tumbling down", but it's true that Yah-Weh said KILL 'EM ALL, including the Canaanite women and kids. I do not, however, go nearly as far as you do GEO. At one time Theodor Herzl, founder of religious Zionism, was quite willing to take Cyprus or even Uganda as a homeland/state for the dispossessed Jews of mainly eastern Europe. Herzl did not insist on having Jerusalem as the capital, or even that the West Bank be part of a new Israeli state. Remember, after WW I, following one of Wilson's 14 Points [right of national self-determination] the Poles/Czechs/Bulgars/Romainians/etc all got THEIR homeland "back", but the Kurds, the Jews, and some others [Serbs I think] did not... it does go back further than Truman and 1948.
There are many Jews, Israeli and American, also horrified by what the press now calls "the Israeli blitzkrieg"... and in ways Netanyahu and his animalistic Foreign Minister A. Lieberman are playing right into the hands of the equally f**ked up Hamas leadership: and the civilians and children die for it, mostly in Gaza.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 10:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ref is from a book after Torah, Joshua 6:20 and 21 --
"When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
They did spare one woman, the prostitute Rehab, who had hidden the Israeli spies during a recon of Jericho.
Yikes.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 11:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

gosh, BC, quite a side note, but then Charles Lindbergh was also an early supporter of Hitler and sick eugenics fake-science.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 11:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan, Why do you say. "Israel's 'right to exist' is very important"?

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 3:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan: Joe Kennedy never was a candidate for the Righteous Gentile award either.

Rudolf Hess may have been the epitome of a wingnut--especially after his flight to Scotland, but even though his mind was muddled, there WAS a lot of sympathy for Germany in England at that time. One of Hitler's girlfriends (Unity Mitford) was British.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 6:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Calling Loonpt: Since it's obvious Hess was murdered in Spandau, what is your theory for the motive?

Do you agree it was because he held damaging secrets about the British? (As some claim) Or do you think it was just some angry prison guard who wanted to off him?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 6:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

dewdly, I believed I gave the short answer last night 10:27 pm, and won't give you the long one since you are incapable of listening or altering your rigid anti-Semitic views:
"Remember, after WW I, following one of Wilson's 14 Points [right of national self-determination] the Poles/Czechs/Bulgars/Romainians/etc all got THEIR homeland "back", but the Kurds, the Jews, the Armenians, and some others [Serbs I think] did not... it does go back further than Truman and 1948."
I support an independent Kurdistan as well. Jews have an ancient language that still exists (like modern Greeks: who got THEIR homeland back sometime after 1830 from the Ottoman Empire: see the trend?), they have a specific "culture" ('an entire way of life'), a unique historic and important religion (the first monotheism if we discount Akhenaton), and after the Holocaust it seems to me and to many others right after WW II (specifically USA and UK) that having a specific place might help vs. future Holocausts.
Your query is "rhetorical", dewdly, since you just want me to get out there a bit so you can hammer away. Be my guest.
I do NOT support Netanyahu, Israeli "third temple" [Gush Emunim or Pure Land] religions fanatics, or the current massacres in Israel. Many American and Israeli Jews are also horrified.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 7:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

What's least infeasible, two states or one?

How long will the power paradigm work now that the nuclear genie is out of the bottle? ("They only understand strength.")

Is "God' (fill in whichever name) a tribal war banner or truly the Trans-ultimate Whatnot?

Is Political Correctness an application of decency and politeness, or a self-serving Jewish meme? (Down with the old elite, up with the new.)

How can so many mathematicians be Jewish, when so many Jews carry on power abuses as if they don't understand the arithmetic of being outnumbered? (Rioters will be rioters.)

And speaking about humanity in general, just what is it about moths and flames?

atomic_state (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you for a beautiful letter. It's a relief to be able to separate the issues. We can love the Jewish people without supporting a racist apartheid state.

The US should not support Israel with money and weapons and should not have a monetary policy that is engineered for a continuous war.

Stanley Fischer should not be directing US monetary policy.

We should have separation of church and state and the congress should control the bank, not the other way around. Between the Federal Reserve and the lobby groups, the US government cannot act in the interest of the US population. Instead it is a puppet government with a mercenary army. Ending the Federal reserve is the only hope for democracy in the US.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 11:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

There is strong DNA evidence that European or Ashkenazi Jews did not originate in the Middle East and yet it was European Jews - not the Mizrahim - who demanded a "homeland" in Palestine. Mizrahim had lived in the Middle East among Arabs for centuries, but the Balfour Declaration wasn't a promise to them but to a people who had never lived in the Middle East.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 12:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bill, I can't really speculate too much about Hess or how he died, what type of secrets he may have been hiding, etc.. I do know that the elite use these political pawns and will bring them power, wealth, women and everything they desire one day and will put them in prison, shoot them in the head or have them met with an unfortunate accident if they go against them or no longer serve a purpose.

One thing I'll say is I'll bet Hess would have done well to go gluten free.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

you don't get the definition of "culture" dewdly, it isn't essentially biological but mores, customs, language, rites, food..."an entire way of life". There is some evidence that modern Greeks - those whom Schliemann and German idealists and Victorian idealists held up so high...are mainly ALBANIAN in origin, or some Slavic whatever, that their actual genetic/DNA background doesn't lead back to the Homeric Hellenes, to Achilles/Pericles/Socrates/Aristotle etc. Yet that doesn't matter: they are Greek.
Thus, it doesn't matter a fig about Ashkenazi or Mizrahim; and, you're splitting hairs.
Not important, but nice try. And you haven't accepted that your interpretation of the Balfour Decl. (which I had to bring up to you, with correction to date to 1918) was full of beans, too. Fess up now.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 1:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

The point is that Jews have lived unhindered in the Middle East since ancient times so if that is the cultural home of all Jews why didn't the Ashkenazim join their cultural brothers centuries ago? If Palestine is the homeland of all Jews why wasn't it the Jews with ancient roots in the Middle East who demanded a Jewish state?

Surely, you know that Jews living among Arabs in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Egypt did not rush to Israel in 1945 to join the Zionists, but had to be terrorized into leaving their settled communities to live among European Jews who viewed their customs, language, food, and mores with contempt.

Zionists are Ashkenazim primarily from Poland, Russia, and Germany. It is they who have overseen the genocide against the Palestinians. Does a genocidal political contrivance really have a "right to exist"?

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nobody in the Middle East has ever lived unhindered .

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 3:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken,

Nonsense. A culture can only be developed and maintained in conditions of relative peace. That is why displacement and cultural disruption are genocidal.

Middle Eastern Jews in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Iran have lived continuously and peacefully among Arabs since ancient times - so peacefully that their cultures have comingled to the point that European Jews are repulsed by the Arab/Muslim "ways" of the Mizrahim.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 4:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually that's a myth that everywhere in the Middle East is going through some horrible strife, try watching the documentary "Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden" by Morgan Spurlock. Spurlock does an excellent job humanizing Muslims and shows how many of them do live a very peaceful existence.

Yes, there's always some horrible strife happening SOMEWHERE in the Middle East, but the Middle East is a very big place. It's like saying that because of the violence in South Central, Detroit and Washington DC, the US is a very violent place to live. The fact is there are plenty of places all over the US that are very safe to live in.

I've found some pretty good, yet unsourced information at this yahoo answers page in regards to Jews living peacefully among Arabs - in fact the Arabs welcomed the Jews there for many decades because they brought with them better health care, schools for both Jews and Arabs and small industry. It wasn't until the British started getting involved and WWI when the strife began, and got much worse a couple of decades later.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 4:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

One thing I'll say is I'll bet Hess would have done well to go gluten free.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 12:34 p.m
What???

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2014 at 9:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

Prime Minister Balfour first met with Chaim Weizmann to discuss a Jewish homeland in Palestine in 1906. Nevermind that Palestine was not Britain's to give.

Rabbi Elmer Berger says of that time, "that group of Jews which committed itself to Zionism . . . entered a peripatetic kind of
diplomacy which took it into many chancelleries and parliaments, exploring the labyrinthine and devious ways of international politics in a part of the world where political intrigue and secret deals were a byword. Jews began to play the game of 'practical politics'."

The practicalities included a written promise, a European war in which the Ottoman Empire was a party, a British victory made possible by American troops and supplies acquired by Jewish pressure on Woodrow Wilson, Zionist representation at the peace conferences, the creation of a new political form called the "mandate", and finally dealing with intense opposition to establishing a homeland for European Jews in Palestine.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 3:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

At least we now know that Morgan Spurlock has the answers...
Redundant comment-how come nobody talks about our second largest benefactor of foreign funds, Egypt, when this discussion comes up? Why only evil Israel? Remember when Obama refused to pull the funds from Egypt, in violation of US law, when the benevolent Muslim Brotherhood threw their little version of a coupe d'etat?

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

billc,

Hess was up every night in prison moaning from a sour stomach and had medical problems with ulcers. Some believe that much of this was an attempt to avoid doing physical labor, but was likely just a gluten sensitivity.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"At least we now know that Morgan Spurlock has the answers..."

No, Morgan Spurlock does not have all the answers, his most popular film "Supersize Me" was well rebuked by another film maker who made a film called "Fat Head" where he lost weight on a fast-food diet "while demonstrating that almost everything you think you know about the obesity "epidemic" ... is wrong." All he did was decrease his carbohydrate consumption by not order fries and sugary drinks and he found he could lose weight and improve his medical test results. I don't support fast food but I do agree that carbs are harmful in the longterm and Morgan Spurlock attacked calories instead of the true culprit of his waning health which were carbs.

However Spurlock is an intelligent and inquisitive guy who likes to go out and make interesting documentaries and anybody who humanizes large groups of people that the media likes to spin a false narrative about to make them into some sort of enemy is my friend.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 9:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

nomoresanity,

Aid to Egypt, doesn't aid Egyptians, it is a payoff to Egyptian leaders to stand aside while Israel commits genocide against the Palestinians.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 10:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yeah! And one other detail, nomore: President Morsi (Muslim Brotherhood) was democratically elected.

atomic_state (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

oops-bad morning-that's what I meant when the military took back over from the elected Muslim Brotherhood morons. We got our free election, the Brotherhood starts killing Christians and destroying the country, the military performs the coupe over the freely elected religious zealots, and Obama refuses to cut of aid to the illegal military government-Thanks Atomic for being polite with your remark.
And Dewdly remains moronic no matter what the topic...

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 5:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The US Senate unanimously approved aid to Israel last week.

"Palestinian health officials say nearly 700 Palestinians have been killed in the last 16 days, most of them civilians including 166 children and 67 women. Israel says it has killed 200 militants since launching the ground invasion.
Palestinian casualties have far exceeded those on the Israeli side, which has lost 32 soldiers and three civilians.
Among the Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire were four children killed playing on the beach; an extended family of 26 killed in their home; a doctor killed eating his morning meal in his apartment; two residents of a center for disabled that was destroyed; 60 people who died in Shujaiyeh, a residential neighborhood of Gaza City, in a single day.
Al Aqsa, situated at the narrowest part of Gaza's midriff, is a medium-size hospital treating many of those injured in Israeli strikes. Doctors there thought it was a haven from the bombardment that had engulfed the surrounding town.

"We were doing our work," said Jabar Al Miri, who is in charge of the hospital's nurses. "We're nurses and doctors. We're not soldiers."

Eyad Abu Shaerah, a doctor, said he was doing rounds about 2:30 p.m. in the cardiology section on the hospital's ground floor when an explosion rattled the floor above him. All the windows of his level were broken.

"Everyone hit the floor," he said.

Mohammed El Haj, a spokesman for the doctors, said nearly 30 Israeli projectiles rained on the hospital and adjacent area. Suddenly doctors had a flood of new patients, including many of the medical staff, janitors and others."

July 23, 2014
http://online.wsj.com/articles/gaza-h...

14noscams (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 6:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nomoresanity,

You thank atomic for being polite with his remark and follow that with impertinent impoliteness toward me. I would rather hear how you think the Egyptians use that massive aid and some explanation of why we give it to them.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 6:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

billc,

Hess was up every night in prison moaning from a sour stomach and had medical problems with ulcers. Some believe that much of this was an attempt to avoid doing physical labor, but was likely just a gluten sensitivity.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 9:21 a.m

That explains it. In Albert Speer's Spandau diaries he recalled an incident where Hess refused to drink milk and the guards were going to force-feed him until Hess finally gave in. I know that he annoyed Hitler on one occasion when he brought his own cook to one of Hitler's parties, and when Hitler asked Hess why he brought his own cook when he knew Hitler had a vegetarian chef, Hess explained "my diet has to be of a biodynamic origin". Even Hitler couldn't deal with it and had to shake his head. Meanwhile, the body count rose.

Segueing onto the next topic, it hit me the other night while driving home all the suffering we have here in the U.S. All the homeless people, people without health insurance, people in debt, Detroit is in ruins, our inner cities are war zones BUT...we keep sending money overseas to prop up dictators. $1.3 billion just for Mubarak alone in his last year of power.

Think of all the money hemorrhaging out of the U.S. that could be spent in infrastructure--meanwhile almost everything here you see is made in China.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 9:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

dewdly pronounces again without any support, " A culture can only be developed and maintained in conditions of relative peace." not true; back it up.
And loon, who really cares about Hess's sour stomach, eh?

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

Do you agree with Ken that no one in the Middle East has ever lived unhindered? That is meaningless hyperbole and it is untrue. Stable communities of Middle Eastern Jews have lived among Arabs in the Middle East for centuries. It was their homeland.

Not only the Arab residents of Palestine, but the Jewish residents of Palestine, Syria, Lebanon,, Iraq, and Iran were strongly opposed to the British Mandate and the establishment of a "homeland" in Palestine for Polish, Russian, and German Jews. The genocide was predictable and you are appalled, but you still chant the mantra that "Israel has a right to exist". Why?

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 12:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

dewdly writes to nomore.. "You thank atomic for being polite with his remark and follow that with impertinent impoliteness toward me." The flood of 'impertinent impoliteness[es]' toward you should cause you to think about what YOU do to engender this: you ask rhetorical questions, you never change your comments, you are fishing for insults since it fortifies your close-mindedness. You make vicious comments yourself vs. women who are considering an abortion, towards Miller-Young etc.
I'd amend Ken's remark to "the NEAR East [so-called Fertile Crescent of ancient times, Levant] has seen far more warfare, internecine conflict, clash of monotheistic religions, inter-tribal strife than many other areas of the earth. He's essentially correct. K. Jaspers calls this a key area for the Axial Age, where 3 of the earth's major monotheistic religions began, near where Zarathustra preached his fire religion...it's a heckuva fermenting region where the juices of human conflict and CREATIVITY continue to flow. I do not chant any mantra, yet do accept the right of Israel to be a nation today. I do not support Netanyahu and the current extreme rightwing and RELIGIOUSLY ZIONIST government today, nor the horrors they are inflicting on Gaza.
WHY ARE YOU SO OPPOSED, so vociferously opposed to the right of Israel to exist?? You do not bother to answer my above comments about the 14 Points, Wilson, etc., yet then ask more questions which are not sincere. Try to answer what you really think rather than your rehearsed mantras which smell of concealed anti-Semitism.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 4:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This started out as a nice little discussion about genocide and anti-semitism and now were talking about Rudolf Hess and his eating habits, some porno professor, and the number 14 keeps coming up. (My name, noscams, and 14 points)

I just think things have gotten a little 2 silly around here.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

agree, it's very scarey, and we need to hear a dolphin's 14 pods, er, points. How DID we get into Rudolf Hess's gluten-free diet, is that what killed him in his 90s, alone, in Spandau prison??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Bauchschmerz!

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For the Anglophones: Bauchschmerz=bellyache.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)


agree, it's very scarey, and we need to hear a dolphin's 14 pods, er, points. How DID we get into Rudolf Hess's gluten-free diet, is that what killed him in his 90s, alone, in Spandau prison??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:25 a.m

No. Rudolph The Red Nosed Nazi actually died after a bout of severe laughter whilst strolling in his prison garden. The spontaneous though of Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and Phyllis Diller doing a nude line dance came into his head, and he laughed so hard that he ruptured his aorta.

Rudy had been slowing down before his tragic demise, which was mourned by wingnuts all over the world, as his once proud goose step was reduced to a mere shuffle.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There is another theory that Loonpt killed Hess by poisoning him with a glass of Alta Dena lowfat milk.

Most conspiracy theorists reject this theory, however.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm pretty sure loonpt used unpasteurized milk, since pasteurization is another government conspiracy, and Hess died from a myriad of active bacteria...

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

forgive the levity above, back to the critical topic:
At least 730 Palestinians have been killed and more than 4,500 injured in Israeli assault. 7/24/14 Two Israeli civilians killed; approx. 30 IDF soldiers killed.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No amount of debate is going to make a bit of difference.
Israel tells the US government what to do, not you.

Makes for good drama though. Maybe we'll see some biblical scale action. Parents don't let your kids join the army, it might get ugly.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Ex-IDF soldiers endorse refusing army service, in letter to Washington Post

51 former soldiers, some of them reservists, declare: 'We now refuse to participate in our reserve duties, and we support all those who resist being called to service.’"

"The signers of the letter claimed that the army used methods of oppressive rule against the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank and perpetuated the disparities in Israeli society. "

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy...

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In light of this crisis, lets look at some recent political history:

During the 2012 election, at the Jackson Hole central bankers meeting, Bernanke met with his PhD advisor, Chairman of the Central Bank of Israel, Stanley Fischer, and came to the conclusion that more "quantitative easing" should be used to boost the economy. Real estate and the stock market went up and Obama was re-elected.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/...

At the 2012 Democrats National Convention, despite booing and an ambigous vote, the Party declared Jeruselam "The Capital" (of Israel).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Bwqz...

Fast forward to now. Stanley Fischer is now running the US central bank as vice chairman (with Yellen as a front). In this role he is pushing for new punitive powers for the central bank so that the fed can control the economy on both ends, providing unlimited "liquidity" and restricting any entities they don't like.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/bus...

Rebuttles? Dismissals? Debates?

Also to consider, how loose monetary policy leads to war, how the central bank is the primary driver for the widening wealth gap, and how the re-election of every congress person depends on quantitative easing.

The conspiracy is in your pocket.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, loose monetary policy is basically the government's way of counterfeiting money for themselves and their friends. Most people don't even know it is happening let-alone realize that it raises prices and acts as a hidden tax that is very significant and hurts poor people the most. It also finances wars and tyranny against the public.

Most people don't understand how our monetary system really works, in fact most ECONOMISTS don't know how it really works because it is not properly taught in most University Economics classes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5k...

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,
From Wilson's Fourteen Points speech:

"The nationalities under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely independent opportunity of autonomous development".

Were the Jews of the Middle East in 1918 considered a "nationality"? Were the Jews of the Middle East agitating for a separate Jewish nation? Were Russian Jews ever under Turkish rule?

Not distinguishing between Talmudic Jews from the ghettoes of Eastern Europe and the Jews who had lived in the Middle East for centuries is an essential error. Palestinian Jews were violently opposed to Zionism. In the period between 1919-1922 the Zionist leaders, most of whom had never set foot in Palestine, first learned that the Jews of Palestine believed them to be "heathen, impious, heartless, ignorant and malevolent". Isn't that an apt description of Netanyahu, Sharon, Shamir, and Begin?

Israel represents the triumph of those Zionists and that is why I oppose its "right to exist". The reason you do not is your fear of being labeled "anti-Semitic".

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 25, 2014 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The relentless Israeli war machine continues to pound Gaza: over 850 Gazans killed (mostly civilians) and over 3500 wounded: 42% of Am. public opinion supports Israel in this. No one yet refers to AIPAC and the intense power of the Israeli lobby over our Congress. In 2006 professors Mearsheimer and Walt wrote an article detailing the extraordinary power of this group -- lobbying for a foreign country -- and ended with this: "Thanks to the lobby, the United States has
become the de facto enabler of Israeli
expansion in the Occupied Territories,
making it complicit in the crimes perpetrated
against the Palestinians."
Thus, you and I are responsible for all this death, along with the $3.4 billion in arm aid we gave Israel last year.
I do NOT support Hamas or it's firing the rockets at Israel; which has suffered three (3) civilian casualties in this asymmetrical war.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 26, 2014 at 4:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, the ref. is at http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/..., and the original publication is from the London Review of Books, March 23, 2006. The authors standby their original article in recent ones.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 26, 2014 at 4:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

And loon, who really cares about Hess's sour stomach, eh?

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 23, 2014 at 10:44 p.m.

What about your nearly always sour mood, Dan?

How DID we get into Rudolf Hess's gluten-free diet, is that what killed him in his 90s, alone, in Spandau prison??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 24, 2014 at 5:25 a.m

Aren't you in your 90's, or close to it?

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 26, 2014 at 6:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

touche, dolphin, and closer to my 90s than I wanna think about. Back to the real topic: who really cares about what we're supporting the Israel IDF's heavy heavy attacks on Palestinian civilians in Gaza, eh dolphin. It actually isn't a funny or sour topic, swimmer.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 26, 2014 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

It isn't a question of Israel's "right to exist", but rather the right of Eastern European Jews to take by force and occupy someone else's land.

Three quarters of a million Palestinians were forced out of their homes in 1948 by Polish and Russian Zionists. If they had the "right" to do that in 1948, and continue the expulsions and killings in 1967,1973, and 1982, surely they have the right to finish the job by annhiliating the stragglers in Gaza.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 2:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

most posters agree you're simply a troll, doody; this letter is about Jews for Peace; I assert Israel's right to exist, but not to hammer Gaza in this disgusting "lawn mowing" (IDF term) way that it is currently doing. You aren't worth responding to, dewdly. If it's too "sour" for you, dolphinpod14, deal with it, finned fella.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 4:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dr. Dan, did I say there was anything wrong with being sour? Do I not get testy and combative on these hallowed blogs? Of course I do.

I would also remind you that Mel Brooks and the cast of Hogan's Heroes dealt with a very serious topic with dark humor.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 6:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If you are German, and sour...no, I wont go there.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 6:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe Hess had too much saurkraut. I will leave it at that.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 6:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

agree, d-pod, as well as M*A*S*H*....

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 6:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DrDan,

I am disappointed that you do no better than "most posters" who resort to troll-calling when they have failed to make their case.

There have always been Jews who have opposed the Zionist program of expelling Arabs from Palestine and replacing them with Jews from Poland and Russia - but they LOST their battle against Zionism when they failed to stop the "mandate" that used British soldiers to provide an armed cordon for the Zionists when they arrived. It is hypocritical to oppose the continuing genocide while supporting its reason for being.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
July 27, 2014 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Israel controls the money supply and therefor controls the Government. Congress will continue to offer support, and when Israel finds itself in trouble, US troops will join the fight.
Parents, don't let your kids join the army.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

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