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<b>MOVING UP: </b> Chumash chair Vincent Armenta said the tribe has received only one comment on its plans.

Paul Wellman (file)

MOVING UP: Chumash chair Vincent Armenta said the tribe has received only one comment on its plans.


Chumash Propose 12-Story Hotel Tower

Also Hope to Add 75,000 Square Feet of Gaming Space and 584 More Parking Spots


Wednesday, July 30, 2014
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The nine-story Granada Theatre could soon get usurped as the tallest inhabited building in the county if the Chumash Casino Resort expands to include (among other features) a new 12-story hotel wing. The tribe’s plans, presented in its 556-page environmental analysis released earlier this month, envision a hotel tower that would offer 215 new rooms (in addition to the existing hotel’s 106), a rooftop pool deck, conference room, and restaurant. It would come with an additional 75,000 square feet of gaming space and administrative offices, as well as a new five-story parking garage for an extra 584 spots (in addition to the resort’s existing 1,957 spaces).

The current four-story hotel and three-story casino would also get a facelift, including a buffet and food court. Under the plans ​— ​which were first floated several months ago and have changed slightly since ​— ​the resort would still be limited to 2,000 gaming machines, as the tribe’s contract with the state, up for renewal in 2020, doesn’t allow beyond that. The growth, as the tribe stated in its assessment, is meant to ease “overcrowding and circulation issues.” Construction could start as soon as this fall.

But some Santa Ynez Valley activists are crying foul over the plans, citing significant issues with the height of the hotel tower ​— ​given its proximity to the airport ​— ​and allocating water resources ​— ​especially in a time of drought ​— ​to the anticipated 1,200 extra visitors per day. Tribal chair Vincent Armenta said the tribe couldn’t build the hotel out rather than up, as much of the reservation is already developed, but he added that the building is “well below the flight path.” (A representative for the Federal Aviation Administration didn’t return requests for comment.)

The Santa Ynez River Water Conservation District currently supplies the resort with 22,600 gallons of water per day, but the tribe estimates it will need an extra 35,700 gallons per day when the new design is realized; whether the district would be able to meet that demand at this time remains uncertain. If it couldn’t, the analysis stated, the tribe could get its additional water via four existing wells on the reservation. That plan presents twofold concerns, activists said. One, they alleged, if the tribe asserts its rights to groundwater underneath the reservation ​— ​surface-water rights are granted based on a long-standing federal case ​— ​it could set a precedent statewide. Two, the project sits within the Uplands Basin, which provides water to many valley residents. Armenta cautioned that the federal rights “are not unlimited.”

Citizens and county officials have until August 14 to submit comments to the tribal leaders, who will respond in a final environmental document. One public hearing is planned for Thursday, July 31, at 6 p.m. at the casino’s Samala Showroom. Comments can also be mailed to the Santa Ynez Band of Chumash Indians, Attn: Vincent Armenta, Tribal Chairman, PO Box 517, Santa Ynez, CA 93460.

Comments

Independent Discussion Guidelines

And they pretend to wonder why no one believes, trusts, or respects them.

John_Adams (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 12:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is something sad about watching rural environment slowly disappear, particularly when you have no say or power to stop the forces of greed that have put this in play.

sukie (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Congratulations on your successes, Chumash!!

It's ok, MOST people around here don't actually disrespect others based on their race.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

a 120 foot stucco tower would look awesome, and fit in perfectly with the neighborhood. and another 75k sq feet of gambling. even better.

lawdy (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The casino is an eyesore already, now they want to make it a taller eyesore.

I moved to the Valley 12 years ago. Since then the traffic has become a nightmare ( much of it due to the casino); meth dealers openly sell their wares in the casino parking lot ( check the police records for verification); and the drive over the Pass has become a suicide mission with casino patrons, many of them drunk, weaving blindly over the curves and into their obituary notices.

Even casino employees are becoming part of the vehicular manslaughter: a local retired teacher was killed by a drugged up tribal employee just a few months ago right in front of the gambling house.

Come on: this place is a stone's throw from where my kids go to high school. If this abomination were in YOUR backyard, you would complain too. It s time to halt the metastatic growth of this tumor so that the people who live here can retain at least a modicum of the serenity and safety we once cherished.

I used to be a proponent of the concept of reimbursing the tribes for their "suffering". Not anymore.

swimfin (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No no no! They got it all wrong, like I've been saying for years, build OUT, not up! You see...if we pave over everything, and make this one big concrete jungle, then no more danger of forest fires!

Get rid of all living, growing things, cover the landscape with cement, and with nothing to water, you solve the drought problem as well.

As for the eradication of quality of life, we can talk about that later.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe the control tower at Santa Barbara Airport is taller than the Granada Building and may be taller than the new planned Chumash Tower and it is indeed inhabited at least during airport operations.

RobEgenolf (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Now for the serious post: "Swimfin", hits the nail right on the head. My family and I moved to the Valley in 2005, and the traffic now is choking. Even when I go to get my mail from the P.O. box there at 3 or 4 in the morning, it's almost guaranteed someone will be up my tailpipe frantically rushing either to or from the direction of the Casino.

Another road hazard are the now seemingly ubiquitous buses with the "Lompoc Employee" lit sign in the front. I can't count the number of times that I'm driving along, going the maximum speed limit, and I will see one turn on to the road, and within about a minute, they're breathing down my back and of course, they make the drive so unpleasant and dangerous, I have to pull over and let them rush by. Complain to the cops and/or the Casino?...I've done both. The cops say that unless they can track the bus tailgating in the act, there is nothing they can do, and of course, there is never a cop when you need one, or maybe some money has been exchanged and they've been told to leave the buses along. As for the Casino, you just get some burned out employee who gives the generic run-around and nothing gets done. In short, they OWN the Valley, they know it, and like any other greedy corporation/developer, power has gone to their heads, they have no shame, and like Donald Trump or Bernie Madoff, their egos drive their acquisitive greed.

The Santa Ynez Valley is the perfect metaphor for "Paradise Lost": What was once (and as Swimfin pointed out, not that long ago) a laid back place, has been overrun with methheads, angry/desperate gamblers with all the attentive sleaze factor, and of course, the "wine tasting" crowd who go up there to get drunk and of course, drive back down the pass.

Any attempt to ride the coattails of the oppressed ancestors by claiming any sort of higher spiritual plane has been lost by Armenta and those around him. They are nothing but morally bereft profiteers. Note that I avoid the use of the word "Chumash", because it's hard for me to imagine Armenta speaks for all Chumash people. Either way Mr. Armenta, you won, but now you are a prisoner of your own insatiable greed, much as the Trumps, the Madoffs, the Hugette Clarks, and others trapped by their wealth often end up being.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 7:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The unadmitted and unapologetic mantra now is self indulgence instead of self reliance. The Chumash (Armenta) was quoted years ago making the statement of:

We Will Listen to Your Concerns, But Don't Tell Us What To Do! That statement said it all. You may slow their progress down, but you won't stop them from doing exactly what they want to do. They are a sovereign nation, remember? You want to make a bitch, make it to the Feds. And good luck with that one!

rukidding (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why are we providing this "sovereign nation" with our scarce water? Why do we treat there sewage or let them use our roads for free. A gate should be put up on our nations land in front of their entrance and a large toll paid to cross it. Make them and all that come out have a passport, pay a fee and go thru customs. Their water and other services should be turned off until they play by the same rules that everyone in our country plays by. Treat them like any other rogue nation.

SilverCloud11 (anonymous profile)
July 30, 2014 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This would DOUBLE the number of hotel rooms, add 25% more parking, and use 40% more water {another 35,000 gallons @ day} -- I have defended the Santa Ynez Tribe's development, and their right to make money just as plenty of anglo landowners have made money up there, particularly the exploding viticulture acreage (21,000 acres and rising).
However, now Armenta and his cohort Sam Cohen honestly expect everyone to believe their pious baloney about how they will go about developing Camp 4 after this?!
Come on, Vincent, you're blowing your cover here. What about your stuff about being good stewards for the sacred environment? How about the fact that there are 137 official tribal members? How about your failure to share revenues with the Santa Barbara and other Chumash tribes? A bit of genuine altruism would be thoughtful, kind, and....necessary.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 1:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How ironic; I just ran across this, I though this woman was long dead:
http://news.msn.com/us/homeowner-who-...

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 1:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The UCSB dorm formerly known as Franciso Torres is 11 stories.

mr_helpful (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 5:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Mr_helpful, I lived there so long I used to call it "FRANK Torres".

I have an idea, if Armenta wants to have the tallest building in the county, he can simply erect an obelisk, or something like the SPace needle in Seattle.
Another suggestion I have for him is to make a replica of the leaning tower of Pisa, where he can charge admission to a gift shop with uncomprimised views of the Santa Ynez Valley.

My final suggestion is that if he is really serious about having the tallest building in the area, he can have the 100 story Hancock building moved from Chicago onto the reservation, where it can once again enjoy its status as the tallest building in the area. (Having had its status revoked when they built the Sears Tower in Chicago)

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 5:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

One of the remarkable stories is in Carey McWilliams, `California, the Great Exception' is the story of why there are not large reservations in California. The BIA wanted to do that, but Congress decided that Spain & Mexico had settled the `Indian Question' and so the US need do nothing to compensate the first peoples here. Prior Mexican & Spanish land grants got honored, sort of, if your Yankee lawyer didn't fleece you. Eventually small tracts of land got devoted after the native population had been decimated.

Decimated by white bounty hunters going out and killing male natives for $. And then taking the women and children to be slaves. Recall that between 1850 and 1865 the slave/free status of non-whites could be defined by anyone until appealed to a court.

I'm always taken aback by the strength of the antipathy toward the current Chumash. Nothing they do comes even close to what the US, California, and every County including Santa Barbara (not any of us personally) did to them. Today's US, California, and County are legally the same entities that existed in 1850. There is no statute of limitations, sorry, for the crimes that were committed. Which is not to say anyone commenting here is personally responsible, you are not. But the corporate entities of the US, the State of California, and the County, until they go out of business.

Ideally no-one would ever go to the Casino; I never do. Personally I think gambling, including the state Lottery, would be illegal, or better, legal but so uninteresting to be unprofitable. Mostly lower-income people squander their money because they've been bilked into thinking gambling is not a rigged game. Many well educated people (although not all) avoid gambling because they know it is way stupider than contributing to your IRA.

I do like the idea of banning alcohol consumption anywhere on site at the Chumash facility. One vice at a time, and alcohol consumption correlates with customers wasting even more money.

Additionally the same advertising restrictions applied to cigarettes should be applied to all gambling (including the State Lottery).

But if the Chumash make lots of money off of gambling, in general, the people who give them the money are to blame. And a 12-story hotel is what the people giving them money want.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Time to reverse California Proposition 5, the Tribal-State Gaming Compacts Initiative (1998). A new ballot initiative to reverse Prop 5 would likely pass since over-development, crime, drug and alcohol addiction, and gambling addiction have been the result of Prop 5.

Georgy (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"How ironic; I just ran across this, I though this woman was long dead:
http://news.msn.com/us/homeowner-who-...

Wow, what a great example of how embracing economic development and change in your neighborhood can potentially be profitable and beneficial for all involved and how foolishly refusing to accept economic development and change on principle for long enough can end up making your investment practically worthless. This is actually an excellent argument for the free market and being anti-eminement domain. People who are pro-eminent domain think that eminement domain is neccessary to allow economic growth, but here we see this woman who fought and could have gotten a huge premium on her property at one time stubbornly continued to fight until her property became completely worthless.. in fact, anybody who buys it sees the building as merely and expense since it would have to be demolished.

She could have easily gotten a huge premium from Trump and moved to a much better place, but now he will be able to buy it on the cheap and develop it anyway. She had her chance..

I agree with the court decisions that allowed her to remain where she was, and when she finally tried to sell her property for almost $1 million there were no buyers - when there is no doubt it was likely that Trump did or would have offered her much more.. now it's being auctioned off for less than $200k.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My guess is that they put this plan forward and then pull back from it to try to garner goodwill. It is sad that we made the mistake of giving gambling to the Native Americans so long ago. What a dumb idea.

montejoe (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Who the hell is anybody to "give" something like gambling to another group of people and talk about it like they are giving a Kindergarten class an unhealthy snack? What happened to living in a free society?

Ya, if we didn't give them a monopoly on gambling then there would be competition. People wouldn't be racing up the 154 to get to a Casino, they could go to the one in Santa Barbara.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loonpt is right.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 8:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sevendolphins: I am 50% Assyrian--much more Assyrian than any of the "Chumash" are Chumash. Since the Turks did to "My people" what the Europeans did to the Indians, and did so more recently, do *I* get compensation? Since I'm 1/4 Irish (Irish Catholic ancestors) and since we all know what they went through can I get some $$$ out of it?

I'm guessing that just about everyone here has some history of their ancestors being persecuted, so my point is, I'm *not* asking for the Turks for any compensation, because if we go down that road, things get complicated. Vincent Armenta and his cronies have more money than most people can ever dream of, so they already have been compensated. While they wear their nice suits and sit in air conditioned rooms, most people are barely hanging on to survive. Having said that, I don't begrudge their financial holdings, what I, and many others are pointing out is "where does it ever end?" This isn't about compensating a people who are being discriminated against, this is about a group of elitist developers who have the same rights you and I do, have already succeeded, but want more and more, at the expense of others, and totally out of touch with any semblance of the spirit of their ancestors. (Let's just talk about the light pollution in the Santa Ynez Valley caused by the Casino, even though their ancestors were heavily connected to astronomy)

We don't need to have our "awareness raised" as some people put it, contrary to what you may think, we are aware of the disgusting hypocrisy of Manifest Destiny, slavery, and racism. Having said this, if you are not primarily of Native American/American Indian ancestory, and feel bad about living on stolen land, you are more than welcome to pack your bags, and return to your ancestral homeland.

Better yet, let's acknowledge the past, quit beating up on ourselves and others, and make sure the sins of the past don't happen again.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

let's ban alcohol at the Casino via a revision of Prop 5; and agree 7dolphins, the animus to the Chumash is oddly intense.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 9:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Where, oh where... Is the EPA when you really need them? Didn't I see some quibble about vintners and wetlands lately? Why doesn't this massive water grab merit the same level of Fed scrutiny? Who's F-ing who?

maximum (anonymous profile)
July 31, 2014 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@Maximum: Follow the money.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 12:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

``Sevendolphins: I am 50% Assyrian--much more Assyrian than any of the "Chumash" are Chumash. Since the Turks did to "My people" what the Europeans did to the Indians, and did so more recently, do *I* get compensation? Since I'm 1/4 Irish (Irish Catholic ancestors) and since we all know what they went through can I get some $$$ out of it?''

Feel free to go to Turkey and appeal for reparations, and also to the UK.

Frankly, those are s*** countries, or at least, that is my opinion.

In the US I think (although apparently you disagree) that we believe in the rule of law, and we oppose racial cleansing, or at least we eventually do. Right now our Federal, State, and County governments are **THE SAME ONES** constituted when genocide against the native Californians was conducted and condoned.

There is no statute of limitations on those crimes.

I'm not saying you did it billclausen. But your ancestors chose to live here, and you choose to live here. That is when you acquired a slice of the legal burden of the corporate entity that committed genocide.

Your Assyrian ancestor could have done due diligence and decided not to come to California. But they chose to come here, sorry about that.

Really it is black & white and very simple. Oppose the Chumash and you condone genocide and racial cleansing. You are free to do so, it is a free country. But when all sorts of BS arguments are floated about the Chumash casino, you can be sure that a lot of people silently finish your sentences and paragraphs with `because I support the racial cleansing, rape, and genocide of the Chumash.'

Now I'm not saying the US achieves its ideal of truly respecting the rule of law. But it certainly is better to try than to give up.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 7:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There is over building in Goleta; there is traffic gridlock in Goleta; there is not enough water.
There is over building in the Valley; there is traffic gridlock in the Valley; there is not enough water.

I wonder what it will be like 50 years from now.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Water is the issue - and it affects everyone, regardless of heritage, ethnicity, etc. The latter should not be used to cloud the issue.

"Exceptional Drought Blankets 58 Percent of California; Reservoirs Missing One Year’s Worth of Water
For California, the punishment just won’t stop.

Human warming and a climate change induced blocking pattern have withered California under record drought conditions for the better part of three years now. A vicious trend that worsened again in recent days with yet another jump in drought severity as exceptional drought conditions surged to cover a majority of the state.

Previous week’s values of 36 percent exceptional drought coverage rocketed to 58 percent in just one week. Exceptional drought is the highest drought category for the US Drought Monitor, representing the most extreme conditions in the measure. So most of the state is now sweltering under the nation’s worst drought category with the remainder covered by extreme and severe drought:

As a result, state supplies are being hammered. For, according to a report released today by the National Drought Mitigation Center, the state is “short more than one year’s worth of reservoir water, or 11.6 million acre-feet, for this time of year.” In other words, if a year’s worth of rain fell over the state tomorrow, it would barely be enough to bring reservoir levels back to normal.

So far, drought effects have been mitigated, mostly through the above-mentioned reliance on ground water supplies. But it remains questionable how long such activities can continue. And despite even these efforts thousands of agricultural workers have been laid off amidst a 2 billion dollar loss for the state’s food industry.

As ground water and reservoir levels continue to drop, officials have grown more anxious to enforce conservation measures. To this point, fines in excess of 500 dollars have been levied for residents hosing sidewalks and driveways, for excessively watering their lawns, or for other water intensive practices. To this end, many municipalities have hired ‘water police’ to patrol neighborhoods and enforce water conservation measures."

http://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/...

Part of those conservation efforts should be NO MORE BUILDINGS. We have reached the limit.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we have reached a right-center-left agreement. NO WATER - no more BIG water using projects! And that's not discriminatory, that is a FACT. Perhaps the cash-flush Chumash can fund their own desalinization plant and pipe water in from the Pacific. Then they can build their dream casino. Until then, there is no way such a project should be approved, never mind whatever they envision on the old Fess Parker land. If Big Ag has to cut back too, so be it, fair is fair. We do not have unlimited WATER.

maximum (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 12:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well fortunately we are probably about to have a record rain season.

You heard it here first.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Perhaps the cash-flush Chumash can fund their own desalinization plant and pipe water in from the Pacific. Then they can build their dream casino.
maximum (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 12:38 p.m.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no! They aint takin water from us!

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 2:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ah, the Independent comment section. Where privileged, mostly white complainists go to show their true colors. 90% of you idiots are just throwing generalized sh!t against the wall to see if it sticks.

Absolutely, the casino is why there is drugs (as if people wouldn't be peddling drugs in the parking lot of the Mav or SYHS). Absolutely, the casino is why people drink and drive (as if people aren't boozing and cruising from the elitist art of wine tasting). Absolutely, the casino is why there is no water. Give me a break.

Anglo's wiped out millions of native people, 50%-90% to be exact, whatever "they're" doing to you hardly moves the meter. You don't like what the Chumash is doing to the Valley? Move, idiot.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 3:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

According to hi5vonhayes, it's revenge on the Chumash’s neighbors for a wrong that was done to the Chumash's ancestors by someone that may or may not be a descendant of the Chumash’s neighbors. Using such logic we could all find an ancestor that was wronged that would justify a new wrong action against an innocent just like the Chumash are doing to their neighbors now.

SilverCloud11 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Guess you misunderstood my post, Silver. Never said anything about revenge, and unless you're an idiot, perhaps you are, does anyone really think the casino exists out of spite or revenge? And do you think the people who created created it for the same reason? The fact that that's what you got from my original post leads me to believe you are in fact an idiot. If you don't like what they are doing then move, that's all. It's not as if they are doing or seeking to do anything that others have not done.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Your attempt at logic fails, Hi5, other than I am inclined to agree with you that the intent of the Casino was not revenge. I have also blasted the "wine culture" far more than I have the Casino, so I'm consistent on that note. I would be curious to know what you mean by "privileged".

What the people behind the Casino are doing is no different from any developer, but what you are saying is in effect: "Sit down and shut up, because *I* say so". As the saying goes "Two wrongs don't make a right", and just because you are angry, doesn't make you right.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It was the *same* corporate entities (the US, the State of California, and the Counties of the State of California) who paid bounties on to encourage murder of the male California natives and who allowed the women & children to be regarded as slaves, sexual and otherwise.

1850-1865 in California was a holocaust for natives that dwarfed the Mission era.

Of course the current residents of the Santa Ynez valley or of California did not cause that holocaust. And there are no bills of attainder in the US.

But the corporate entities, our governments, have been in business continuously since 1850. No statute of limitations on their responsibility.

So gnash your teeth and wail, recent residents. You will be listened to and ignored, and then the Chumash will do what the heck they please. Get used to being impotent. Move away if you don't like it. What went around has come around.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Anger? No anger here. I don't live there and therefore it doesn't really directly effect me (other than the whole "they'll use more water" angle). I just get a kick out of people complaining and shouting "how dare they (the casino) do 'x'" when there are far worse crimes going on to our local community. And anything that anyone is getting worked up about is already going on all across the Central Coast. There are no wrongs in this other than it's wrong for people to cry when someone wants to build something and it's going to create more traffic (cry me a river).

As far as privileged, I meant exactly what I said. Privileged people go wine tasting. The same people that play golf and ski. It's a lifestyle, and it's silly, and it's comprised of mostly well off white people. Obviously these are merely my opinions and I'm sure anyone can make a solid case going the other way.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HI5vonhayes you are sure quick to call people you do not know “idiots”. Especially surprising from someone who has yet to master English spelling or grammar. My previous comment was to illustrate the logical conclusion of your justification for the Chumash to act contrary to the best interests of the community. Perhaps the concept was too complex. Your idea that if one does not like what the Chumash are doing, one should leave, is in your vernacular, moronic. You obviously do not like what any of the previous “privileged, mostly white complainists” or “90% of you idiots” are saying. When are you leaving?

SilverCloud11 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ah yes, the spelling/grammar guy who tries to make their point through constructing long winded and obviously forced sentences. Just a notch above the arse who calls everyone "idiot." And it's not really my idea--the whole if you don't like it leave philosophy--but I don't think it's moronic at all; merely a suggestion to people who have an issue with an organization run by native people doing something completely legal. If you don't like it, move to Los Alamos or Carp, but stop crying foul (or keep crying foul and just know you're a total dick for doing so). And as far as when I'm leaving, nah, I'm good right where I am. Love the area I live in and have a high tolerance for wankers.

I had my husband check this and he only saw three mistakes, please let me know if you catch anymore. Apologies in advance.

Balls in your court, Professor!

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Silver,

I just re-read your earliest post and it's clear that calling you "professor," albeit in jest, is an insult to actual professors. It is now clear that I am dealing with an utter idiot with zero common sense and no understanding of history. No wonder people think this area is littered with closet racists who kiss their conservative handbooks upon waking from their lush homes. Next time you go wine tasting why not stop off at the reservation and share your thoughts with the natives?

"Why are we providing this "sovereign nation" with our scarce water? Why do we treat there sewage or let them use our roads for free. A gate should be put up on our nations land in front of their entrance and a large toll paid to cross it. Make them and all that come out have a passport, pay a fee and go thru customs. Their water and other services should be turned off until they play by the same rules that everyone in our country plays by. Treat them like any other rogue nation."

Shame on you.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@Hi5: Thanks for clarifying about the wine tasters, I have to agree that they are totally ridiculous and hypocritical.

Sevendolphins: Of what ethnic extraction are you? I *do* have a valid reason for asking this which I will explain if you answer my question.

Next question for Sevendolphins: Do you live anywhere between the Bering Strait and Tierra del Fuego? Again, there is a reason I'm asking this.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When are you leaving?

SilverCloud11 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Am I to understand, that the wine crowd is...WINING about the casino?

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Speaking the casino, I think its cruel and unusual punishment that they have the awful crawler of the Ron White guy with that nasty look on his face and that cigar hanging out of his mouth at the top of this page. Worse yet, he wont even be there until august 28. That man is really nasty looking, my eyes are bleeding.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 1, 2014 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sevendolphins, we feel that it is unfair that you attack billclausen because he is one human against seven of you. therefore, we will back him up not because we think hes right, but because you all are ganging up on him.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

After the apologists get over the truth; that these Native Americans are as, or more corrupt than any group in this country, we can begin to figure out the actual issues. As for being good stewards of the land? Seriously?
Water-whether you build out or up we don't have enough of it.
Infrastructure-154 cannot handle the increase in traffic since the road cannot handle the volume it currently has.
Zoning restrictions-obviously the corporate gambling group feels immune like most well moneyed developers.
They are, however, and according to the article, going to have a new and better buffet...

nomoresanity (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Truly good stewards of the land would tear down their own homes, remediate their land back to its pre-Columbian state, donate the land to a land trust, and move away. I guarantee to take opinions of people who do that very seriously.

Any homeowner in the Santa Ynez who does not do that is a phony; all they want is their blight and water consumption and not the Chumash' blight and water consumption.

And the Chumash have a way better case than all the homeowners, given our governments' history of genocide of native Californians. Go read about it sometime, makes Wounded Knee look like a Norwegian prison camp.

I'm white as the driven snow and Protestant, billclausen. Ancestors came over on the Fortune, Anne and the Little James, and one other whose name escapes me. I live in good old south Santa Barbara County, not far from that community that was once Chumash land, but the land agent managed to get it through the usual white fraud.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Might be time for everyone to see the movie "America" if you are going to throw around terms like genocide and ancestor guilt. Still playing at Plaza de Oro - bargain price matinees.

JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you can't see the movie "America", then listen here to the song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yaet...

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sevendolphins: Thank you for answering my questions. Having read your responses, why do you stay on stolen land if you feel badly about what happened? If you want to be taken seriously, why don't you take your own advice and leave the Western Hemisphere since every square inch of land between the Bering Strait and Tierra del Fuego is stolen land?

What I also don't understand about people such as yourself is your assumption that the rest of don't know about what happened. I was aware of what happened to the American Indians when I was in grade school, (as most if not all of my friends were) so it's not as though you are telling us something we don't know.

Anyway back to my question: If you feel you live on stolen land why don't you leave? Who are you to dictate the terms of your living situation to those whose land you have stolen?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Some people are so stuck in the past they can't adequately deal with the present.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)


"Truly good stewards of the land would tear down their own homes, remediate their land back to its pre-Columbian state, donate the land to a land trust, and move away."

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 1:33 p.m.

And why have you not done this? Also, why do the owners of the Casino choose to live in Western-style dwellings?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bring back the Wooly Mammoth.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 6:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 7 p.m. (Suggest removal)

haha billclausen. That is all you got? I have no problem with the Chumash building their facility. To me it is no different than all the other housing built here, including mine. I'm not on a jihad to prevent the Chumash from having what you and I have, you are, billclausen.

I guess the Chumash are just doing exactly what all the folks who now protest them are trying to do. The difference is… the Chumash's government didn't put bounties on the heads of all the male folks who live in western-style developments. The County Governments of California did.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 10:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)


"haha billclausen. That is all you got?"

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 10:49 p.m

That's all I need.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 11:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

7dolphins wrote "I guess the Chumash are just doing exactly what all the folks who now protest them are trying to do. The difference is..." that TIME HAS PASSED, the population of the SY Valley has mushroomed, but natural resources like water etc. have not... and the tiny Santa Ynez Band, whom I've supported in the past, are like most for profit corporations, Armenta as CEO, maximizing $ without much care for the land or limited natural resources. One difference today is that these Chumash spout off about how sacred the land is -- it is! -- but they wanna develop just like "all the other housing built here". But they claim to care more. They make a lot off the current Casino. They're also harming themselves because much more opposition develops to their "plans" (which they fib about) for the Camp 4 property which they're attempting, via fee-to-transfer, to make into official Rez. land... oh, and Sam Cohen fallaciously assures us they just wanna put a few homes there. Why should be believe Armenta and Cohen now? Hey Vincent, pretty stupid politicking...get rid of Cohen and begin dealing in a straightforward fashion, you'll get a lot more out of Farr and others there in the valley.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 1:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

But DrDan, saying that makes you a racist, just like David Crosby* and I are racists.

I suppose the only way we can stop Sevendolphin's attacks is by calling in the dolpinpod.

*Crosby, actually well known as being very left-wing, blasts Armenta's group in his autobiography "Since then"/

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I've not called anyone racist. In fact quite the contrary, those who live here now didn't put bounties on the heads of the male California natives, nor did they encourage the seizure of women and children of California natives as slaves, sexual and otherwise.

However, it was our County Government and State Government that did so. The very same ones now still in control of our dear State and County. There is no statute of limitations on genocide.

All I perceive from the anti-Chumash is some sort of transfer of this criticism of our Government into a personal accusation of racism on the part of the anti-Chumash. The closest I get is: either your are against genocide and rape or you are not. If you are against those things, you must hold our County & State government responsible. Period. Some of that burden does fall on all of us who live here, but it is not a personal accusation of racism. Stop hauling racism into it, that is just intellectually dishonest.

`Limited natural resources?', really DrDan? Does it ever occur to you that you are saying their just happen to be just enough natural resources to cover you, but my goodness, just too few natural resources to cover the Chumash? Amazing, isn't it. There always is an amazing conspiracy of the natural environment to just allow the anti-Chumash to have enough resources, but not enough for the Chumash. Incredible.

David Crosby is a drug addled gun nut. Sorry, his political opinions mean nothing to me. He made some good music, and got famous. But fame is not wisdom.

And as to the accusations about Armenta and maximization of profits, uh, pot calling kettle black here? The entire development of the Valley, the vineyards, the tourism in Solvang, the spaceport, etc were all driven by profit maximization. But goodness, *we* can do that, but not *them*.

Feel free to bulldoze your home, remediate your land back to pre-Columbian state, and donate it to the land trust if you want to prove you are not just a hypocrite. BTW, I bet the Chumash will start doing just that: they are rich enough to just purchase homes in the SYV and remediate them until they get a net-0 impact of Camp 4.

And I hate gambling. Really hate it. Have relatives and friends with ruined lives. Seriously gambling (including the lottery) should be restricted in its advertising just as cigarettes are.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 9:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share

The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

eleventysevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

7dolphins wrote, "`Limited natural resources?', really DrDan? Does it ever occur to you that you are saying their just happen to be just enough natural resources to cover you, but my goodness, just too few natural resources to cover the Chumash? "
I stand behind those words, and have stated the same about the vastly expanding Chinese middle-class most of whom now want to drive cars and pollute our shared atmosphere.
But I totally agree about Crosby's terms; don't put me in the hate-Chumash category!

DrDan (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Armenta and his group want to bring more NONChumash to the valley, not more Chumash. And no, there are not enough resources to cover them or the thousands of tourists (nonresidents) coming to Santa Barbara everyday.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Armenta doesn't bring them, they decide to bring themselves.

Santa Barbara works incredibly hard to make itself a tourist destination. So it is OK for the hotels down on Cabrillo near the beach to attract tourists, or for a the Old Spanish Days to attract tourists, but not for the Chumash (how predate Old Spanish Days by 10,000 years or so) to attract tourists?

If you complain about scarce resources, you should remediate all resources you consume to pre-Columbian status, or you are a hypocrite. Your consumption of resources is no better or worse than the Chumash's consumption. You have no favored status.

And from a governmental perspective, there are ample reasons to favor the Chumash in their requests to consume resources. They were the victims of genocide that was supported by all our government agencies. Not by any of you, of course, but indeed by the government agencies still in power in this County, State, and Country.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@sevendolphins

1. The Chumash Casino advertises internationally. They work just as hard to make themselves a tourist destination as SB Touriism, Chamber of Commerce, etc.
Hone your reading skills and you'll see that I drew an unfavorable comparison in terms of resources.
2. Again, why don't you return a cave like you've recommended everybody else do, who is the hypocrite?
3. You sound like racist.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@Ken_Volok

1. Santa Barbara advertises internationally. Why shouldn't the Chumash do the same?

2. & 3. Hone your reading skills and you'll discover that I support the development of the Chumash property as well as the development that led to my housing and your housing too. I don't want to live in a cave. You are the one that miraculously and hypocritically feels that there are resources just sufficient to cover yourself and maybe your friends, but nobody else, and particularly not the Chumash. And you call me racist! You lazily have descended to Godwin's Law. And if you notice, I don't accuse you or DrDan or billclausen of genocide. But our government agencies, duly constituted and in power since 1850 or so, did endorse genocide. So sorry about that, but there is no statute of limitations.

Took me a while do decode eleventysevens' comment. Midnight Oil got it right.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So Chumash people are going to live in the 12 story hotel? Where's the water going to come from?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 12:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Same place it would come from if Fez expanded or a new school was built or a new development of homes was created. Yeah we're in a water crisis, but if you're saying no to Chumash expansion for water reasons then nothing should be built, correct? Isn't that only fair?

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why you people are some desperate astroturfers.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 1:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not really sure what that term is but I guess by you not responding to my response... I win? Thanks for playing "Common Sense," better luck next time!

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 1:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What common sense "hi5vonhayes" have you offered?

Eat up and drink up all the resources is your idea of common sense?

Astroturfing is what you are doing, you have no opinion on any other local topic not Chumash related?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Do people not understand the difference between residential dwellings vs. a hotel? Dumb.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 1:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not pro sucking up resources, especially not for silly things like hotels or tourist type places, just answering your question: "where does the water come from?" From the same place that every other establishment gets it from. Yes there is a very big difference between residences and hotels, but as far as I know there isn't a rule or law that says residences get water before hotels, am I wrong? At the base of it they're both things that use water, and therefore Chumash has the same right to water as everyone else (again, unless their is a rule in place). And as far as your astroturfing thing goes, not sure I get it; this thread is a thread about the Chumash, should I discuss something else, Ken? So yeah, guilty of "astroturfing," I.e., talking about the topic of the article. I'd love to discuss this topic further with you if you actually had anything relevant to say.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Where do you think this abundance of water will emanate from? You seem voluntarily ignorant and distractive on issues and terms you don't wish to really address.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To be quiet honest I don't know where Solvang of Sante Ynez gets it's water from, could probably google it and find it but don't really care. Cool that you know, tip of the cap. I'm alll in support of pausing futher development due to our drought, but all development, not just the Chumash because of peoples personal biases. So, unless their is a universal pause on all development that would use water than you have no legs to stand on. Need a stool, Ken?

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Where do you get that I have some personal bias? And why are you commenting on issues you now claim to have no knowledge of? Need a brain hi5? Are you even from around here not to know where the water comes from? Yep, astroturfer.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I wasn't aware the issue at hand was the water. I thought it was the building of a new structure. Sure one of the talking points is "water" but that's not the actual issue and sure isn't the reason various people have given for being anti-building (that's where the personal bias comes into play; wasn't directed towards you, but you do sound like a guy who thinks the Chumash don't deserve to build because they are the Chumash). Why do I need to know where the water comes from to know the area and the entire state is lacking said resource? By that logic I can't comment intelligently on any matter that I don't have a profound understanding of. We both know water is an issue, sounds like we both would like to see new structures be put on hold until water issues are addressed (won't happen), does the fact you know where water comes from make your argument any stronger? No. Again, good job for knowing where the water comes from; if this a debate about the Chumash building a new structure you'd score zero points for saying something irrelevant.

Yours always and forever,
The Astroturfer

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, and I'm not from around here. I've only lived here for 8 years. Is that OK, Ken? Does my opinion count even less now cause I wasn't born here or lived here the same amount as you? Sorry to infiltrate your bubble... One more minority you have to deal with I guess.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Looking at water and resources is part of the big picture and the fact you don't have the most basic local common knowledge says a lot, including your puerile accusation that I "sound like a guy who thinks the Chumash don't deserve to build because they are the Chumash" makes you look like a complete idiot.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You've lived here 8 years and you haven't a clue where the water comes from? The minority of stupid is what I'm dealing with here.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I know where the water in SB where I live comes from, but again, has zero to do with anything; but seeing how you have nothing on point or pertinent to say keep scoring what you're doing. You're remind me of the kid in school who couldn't add to a discussion so he just kept shouting over everyone about nonsense. If your class was talking about WW2 and the discussion was why the US drooped the bomb would you just yell at people, "but where was the plane built? You mean you don't know where the plane was built?" Keep doing you, Ken.

Hey everyone, did you know Ken knows where the water comes from? If you'd like to chat more about the casino, sounds good, but I'm retiring from your water convo, you win.

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry for the typos. I shouldn't use a Stylus pen on an iPad AND google "where does my water come from?" Not a multitasker I guess.

Turf, out!

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok where does our water come from?
This isn't about a casino numbnuts it's about a new 12 story hotel!
If they were building better housing for the local Chumash population that'd be another issue all together but you're not getting paid to advocate for that are you?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not a very good astroturfer either.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ahh, Ken Tremendous would like to talk about the topic at hand, awesome! You're right, it's not about a casino, it's about the casino trying to build; in this case it's a hotel. Again, great job playing the semantics card, Ken. It'd be nice if the Chumash were building homes, but they're not; however, who are you or anyone for that matter to say "x" can build and "y" can't? Under what circumstances is one allowed to build? It'd be nice if the reasons were altruistic, but capitalism and altruism don't really go hand in hand. And are you implying I am somehow connected to the Chumash by you "getting paid to advocate" comment?

*Ken figured me out, boss, time to change screen names and start over*

I don't know where your water comes from, but mine comes from the supermarket and Arrowhead. Does your water come from the tears of your fellow white conservatives who are upset about the Chumash building a hotel?

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My "fellow White Conservatives"... bwahahahaha that'll be news to Jarvis and quite a number of other bloggers!

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

EIR= Environmental Impact Report. One is done with every new development. If the hotel were at capacity how much water, power, and road impact is that?
The Chumash Casino does donate a lot to charity; but the EI is an important topic that you either refuse or are intellectually unable to address.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And why have you no opinion on any other local issue?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Latino liberal then? 'Twas a guess, a wrong one I take it. Again, cool stat about the EIRE, and obviously I'm too intellectually inept to understand it, but you're not answering my questions. Why should other projects get a green light and not the hotel? Is it right to look the other way while 4 projects are given the green light even though they do as much EI damage as one Chumash hotel? I'm an all or nothing kinda guy; if you let one you let them all unless rules are in place that say otherwise. If this was the Fess Parker would you have an issue? Or if a hotel was being built on MJ's ranch?

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Latino liberal then" guess again
What other projects have a green light?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

An independent wookie? I don't know other projects, not privy to that info. But thanks for answering my questions. You're fun to chat with (HJM).

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Then why imply other projects of a similar type have been greenlighted when you can't name one? It seems you're not privy to any local info at all.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I wasn't implying there were other projects, just asking a hypothetical question (although the Subway in Buellton is trying to add 500 more sf)... But no need to get back to me as I'm gonna bow out of this little exchange as, well, you're not very good at having a conversation (I.e, answering questions posed, staying on point, having the ability to read something written and make an intelligent inference). I'm gonna go bone up on my Central Coast info and try and buy the rights to astroturfer.net. Good luck with your water thing. You stay classy, Ken.

Turfburger, out!

Good luck, Chumash. As long as you're not breaking the law and are abiding by rules and regulations, best of luck (even though yes, the expansion will benefit the few and have a negative impact on the community in terms of carbon footprint, etc.)

hi5vonhayes (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You really can't differentiate between apples and oranges can you hi5?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 6:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sevendolphins writes: "I've not called anyone racist. In fact quite the contrary, those who live here now didn't put bounties on the heads of the male California natives, nor did they encourage the seizure of women and children of California natives as slaves, sexual and otherwise.

However, it was our County Government and State Government that did so. The very same ones now still in control of our dear State and County. There is no statute of limitations on genocide."

The statements contradict each other. Here is the truth: "The very same ones" makes no sense, because those people are long dead. No matter
how you try to reconcile your statements, you are being--as you militant left-wingers so love to say "intellectually dishonest". (Note: Big difference between militant leftists and tolerant liberals)

"David Crosby is a drug addled gun nut." From everything that I know about Crosby, he WAS drug-addled, but he cleaned up. As for his views on guns, that's a Red Herring and again, "gun nut" is as stereotypically militantly left-wing as "intellectually dishonest". (I'm observing patterns here, and again, to you liberal Democrat-voting folks out there, I'm not lumping you in with Sevendolphins)

Ken_Volok says: "Some people are so stuck in the past they can't adequately deal with the present."

Ken is what I'd call a true liberal. (And yes, that's a compliment) Ken wants to help his fellow beings, correct social injustices, and realizes that dwelling on the past to the extent that it hinders the future is not good policy, but people such as Sevendolphins don't get this. As for "Hi5", she's only made one valid point that I see, and that's about the rich winos taking over the Valley.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 6:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Part two of two:

To Ken and DrDan: You two have presented well-articulated points, but you are dealing with people who believe that digging from the bottom of the barrel and throwing it to the wall in hopes that it will stick is a valid strategy. Sevendolphins: You are wrong, you don't get what the real issue is, which is about rich developers trying to exponentially draw into already scarce resources. You are wrong about this, just as you were wrong about the Cold Springs Bridge barrier which you wanted so badly, then you got it, (after millions of dollars were spent) and people are still jumping off the bridge, but emotion rules out logic in your case. If I didn't know any better, I would say you are an attorney, because you simply will not give up the fight after you've been proven wrong.

To Sevendolphins and Hi5: All that DrDan, Ken, myself, and others are doing is applying the same set of standards toward Armenta as we would any other developer and again, if you look at our previous posts, none of the three of us are supportive of the endless influx of rich drunks A.K.A. "Wine tasters", so we are being consistent.

To Eleventysevendolphins: When you say "give it back", are you going to be consistent and want it ALL given back? (The Bering Strait to Tierra del Fuego analogy)

In summery: The government of today is not the same one who brutalized the Indians. We do not need to have our (here's another favorite Leftie term) our "Awarness raised" by your posts about the horrors of what was done to the Indians because contrary to what you realize, we ARE sentient beings who are aware of these things. Finally, Ken and Tabatha's questions still stand: Where are we going to get the water?

As Ken says: You're stuck in the past.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 6:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken does want to help his fellow beings, hes always been good to us, but your being mean to him. BAD dolphins U R.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 6:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Feel free to bulldoze your home, remediate your land back to pre-Columbian state, and donate it to the land trust if you want to prove you are not just a hypocrite. " -- pretty funny 7 dolphins, kinda like theatre of the absurd... well, I hate gambling, too, as well as disliking the free pass rich whites get building their wineries up...

DrDan (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 8:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't read all 97 comments, but my guess is that no one brought up the question of who really owns the Indian casinos.

Because Indian reservations are sovereign they are available for enterprises that would be illegal in the surrounding state. The logical investors for Indian casinos are the casino owners in Nevada, New Jersey, offshore, and out of the country. All these billionaires had to do was study the location of the reservation, eliminate those that are too far from population centers, and approach the poverty-striken tribes with a chance to get in on a lucrative deal. The tribe would get only a tiny piece of the profits, but the casino would employ the tribal people and improve property values.

If these were Chumash, on their own, there wouldn't be a casino, much less talk of a 12 story addition. But they are not on their own and big money usually gets whatever it wants.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day and I have to confess, dewdly brings up an interesting question.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ah, hahahaha, billclausen. You say, " The government of today is not the same one who brutalized the Indians".

So you say that the current State of California is not the same State of California that was admitted to the Union on Sep. 9, 1850? When was a new State of California constituted? Please supply its date of admission to the Union, billclausen.

billclausen says, `people are still jumping off the bridge'… name more than one person who has jumped off and their date of jumping.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 9:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sevendolphins, do you really believe that people from 164 years ago are still alive and enacting policy in California's government?
Jerry Brown is old but is he really that old?
Can you really be that stupid?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I really believe that as a corporate and legal entity, the State of California now constituted is the same as that admitted to the Union on September 9, 1850.

All obligations of that entity remain obligations of that entity, no matter what date between Sept. 9, 1850 and the present they were undertaken.

If you and billclausen say a new State of California was established and admitted to the Union, please provide the date that that new State was admitted to the Union.

Or, if the current State defaulted on its legal commitments, please provide the date of that default.

Ditto Santa Barbara County. With the dates changed, ditto the United States of America.

If not, remember, there is no statute of limitations on heinous crimes.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sevendolphins, it's quite enjoyable to see you drown in a glass of water. You take the prize for stupid.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sevendolphins: The fact is, the barrier didn't stop suicides. As for what I meant by the "state", I'm talking about individual people. I should have been more specific.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 2:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jerry Brown is old but is he really that old?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 3, 2014 at 10:10 p.m.

Yes he is, which almost makes him as old as Dr. Dan. As for 7 dolpins, he/she/it/them is a shame to the rest of us sea creatures. They have insulted you and Dr. Dan, as well as billclausen. They taunt, harass, and make life miserable while they spout (get it? "spout" like how a dolphin has a spout/blowhole?) their natterings of negativity, but do not let them discourage you.

Sevendolphins, even though billclausen has a measured I.Q. of 63, he still refutes your points. You are mean, vindictive, cruel, and make to others vexing comments, causing them anxiety. (Ken Volok is sitting here right now, crying like a baby because of what you said) Your shark-attack tactics are becoming timeworn, and as Ken said you are the only sea creature who can drown in water, even as Ken drowns in his own tears because of you.

U R a bad, bad, dolphin. Thank you, and have a pleasant tomorrow.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 2:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ah 14, you know, fish do need bicycles. Or I should say, sea mammals. Nothing like a night bike ride (on our seven-fold tandem) around the airport when the ground fog rises from the Slough. The weeping of the ghosts of all the Chumash who now have a poop-plant on their sacred graves fills the air. But thank goodness they like dolphins, they avoid the white devils entirely.

billclausen, how wonderful if our state was the people. Then the state could welch on all sorts of obligations, like, paying $ in lawsuit judgements, or making pension payments, or MediCAL. But the state is a legal entity, and looks to me like you agree the one we have now is very one and the same with the one admitted to the Union on Sept. 9, 1850. The very same one that passed laws encouraging the genocide of California Natives.

I'm only aware of one suicide since the barrier went up. That is single, not plural suicide*s*. In two years. A less patient dolphin than us might say that the rate of suicide has fallen in half… used to be one a year. But careful people do know that statistics are a fickle business. Perhaps after 20 years we will conclusively know whether the barrier made a difference.

It does seem to us that there are more folks who get on the bridge and threaten, and then get talked down. Hmmm…. maybe that is a good sign. The other effect is: the bridge was in the news a lot. Might bring people to it until the PR dies down, which will take 5 years or so. BTW, the GGB is getting nets. Now out in Isla Vista, that is where the view of our Channel is exceptional, and where nets not fences make sense.

Ken Volok, don't waste water trying to drown a dolphin pod. There is a drought on, you know.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

sevendolphins, Just a random thought, I wonder if that person who used to argue with you about the cold springs bridge ("Kratatoa" and all the other volcanic names he/she used) committed suicide?

You sure don't hear anything from them any more.

Maybe they jumped off the bridge just to prove you wrong. Wouldn't THAT be a case of mixed emotions on your part!

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 7:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Chumash in name only. No respect for the land, no respect for their neighbors only interested in more money more money more money. Their ancestors would likely be dismayed at how they earn their living. While it is certainly true that their ancestors were virtually enslaved and almost totally annihilated by the Spanish the current crop of Chumash are really just a minor Mafia with a small bit of Chumash blood in their veins. The people of California screwed up big time when they approved Prop 5 way back when. I voted NO because I imagined no good could come of this but we are stuck with that vote. I think it is safe to expect them to try for ever bigger and grosser projects. Adios little old Solvang and Santa Ynez.

Noletaman (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Unfortunately, 7dolphins, Bill Clausen is correct about suicides off the Cold Spring Bridge despite the unnecessary "suicide prevention" mesh: one in Sept. '12 and another in July '13 (Gilbert Herrera): see here: http://www.santabarbaraview.com/cold-...
I'm enough of a libertarian to agree with BC that this $800,000 expenditure by the state was ridiculous and gives support to the critics of a "nanny state". In fact, at this rate there will be more suicides off the bridge WITH the so-called protective mesh than during the years without it (there were 54; do the math). And, the mesh is ugly as sh!t.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 8:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I love how some commentators talk of "weeping ghosts" who, if crying are crying over the bastardization of their tribal name and try to blame the deeds of people two centuries ago on people alive today. Pretty pathetic.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Noletaman nails it right on the head. Ken also stole my thunder by pointing out how their ancestors would not be pleased with their actions.

Sevendolphins: I'm going to make an on-air confession: I was once as you are now. I rode the idealistic train of anger/self-loathing for a long time and picked at the scabs of the past until I realized that festering over past injustices was not going to correct the situation. All the people involved in slavery and what happened to the Chumash are dead. You need to get with the here-and-now or as I just posted on another thread this anger is going to eat you alive.

Let it go Sevendolphins, you're not doing yourself any favors.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 10:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Santa Ynez band of Chumash are not going away. Santa Barbara County had a chance to work with them , but the supes over played their hand and now the tribe is flexing it's muscles. If you sow the wind, be prepared the reap the whirlwind.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 4, 2014 at 10:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought 12 storey densely populated dwellings with common eateries were considered 'green' and eco-friendly?? Or is it just not eco-friendly because it is other people living on what you consider "your" land?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It might be their land, but it's our water.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There once was a man from Madras,
whose balls were constructed of brass.

When he'd clang them together,
they'd play "Stormy Weather"
while lightning shot out of his ass..

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 5:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm white as the driven snow

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 2, 2014 at 1:33 p.m.

sevendolphins is so white, he makes John Tesh look like Snoop Dawg!

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 6:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Uh, Ken the Chumash have significant water rights and the money to buy any extra they need.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have no self loathing. I like living here, my house, and I don't mind sharing it with the Chumash.

It is you billclausen, and you, Ken_Volok who wail and tear out your hair about the consumption of resources, but indeed, *you consume them too*. You must hate yourself for all your personal destruction of our local environment.

And you distort my position repeatedly: I don't blame anyone alive for the genocide of the California natives. No bills of attainder.

But the California government condoned it, the very same California government still in power now. And so it makes sense to me that the California government gives special privilege to the descendants of the state-sponsored genocide. I guess Ken Volok thinks that documents like the State Constitution have no lasting value, and the rule of law can be changed willy-nilly by whatever random politicians we elect. Me, I think the corporate entity that is the State must account for its actions on which there are no statute of limitations.

Thanks for pointing out the second tragedy at Cold Spring. So I get the rate of suicide post-barrier as 0.83/year. Pre-barrier it was 1.10/year. Seems to me that 0.83 is a smaller number of 1.10, but I'm sure real experts like Garrett Glasgow would assure all the dolphins that 1.10 is really smaller than 0.83.

As to what is statistically significant, what do I know, I'm just an actuary. Glasgow assured me I was an idiot to question the statistical significance of his claims. He is sure dolphins cannot count.

So nice that in early Calfornia, seized indian boys could be sold for $60, but girls, useful for, say, a little bit of the old in and out, went for $100.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/06...

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Consume as necessary and conserve is my motto. You make a lot of dumb assumptions and sillier claims sevendolphins. Get off your high horse, which is probably an SUV.
"Wailing and tearing our hair out" hahhaha That from the person who imagines ghosts crying over debate about the wisdom of a hotel being built.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We don't own a horse, high or low, and we ride our 7-fold bike and take the delightful bus, Ken_Volok. We do have a battered 20-year-old van we drive every now and then, particularly to cycling events.

It is Surfrider, those notable environmentalists, who drive SUVs to the surfing spots and demand parking for them.

The ghosts of Mescalitan Island wail because their graves were plowed into the wetlands of the Goleta Slough, where the shellfish once sustained one of the largest villages on the South Coast, S'axpilil. Once the upturned sacred graves killed the wetland, a poop processing plant was erected where the graves were.

Seems to me a pretty good reason for ghosts to wail, but if you don't care about wetlands, or disturbing graves, or putting poop in another culture's sacred spot, none of that would bother you, Ken_Volok. And I'll bet you think there is just enough local poop processing power for you and yours, but miraculously, not enough for anybody else.

The Canaleno didn't much care for the Ynezeno. Still don't. The ghosts don't wail for the Casino.

But the bigger principle is that our dear State of California condoned genocide. A historical fact. Indeed, a long, long, time ago, but there is no statute of limitations on genocide.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So who would you send to jail for these crimes? Did you know the Goleta Slough was created by heavy rains in 1861-62, the flooding from which created so much sediment run off that it blocked the creek and created the silty wetlands? Sounds like nature not the State of California is responsible for that.
Unfortunately we can't bring Mescatlin Island back, I'd concentrate contemporary issues instead of living in the past.
PS. I'm jealous about the van :)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No Ken the flooding was caused by over grazing and tree removal by settlers. The island was destroyed by the navy when the airport was turned into a military base in the early 1940s. Face it dude, the Chumash who are chartered by the United States have more pull than the nimbys in the valley.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The flooding was caused by about three months of rain, the run off was enhanced by grazing.
And yes I already knew about the Navy bulldozing. I just don't buy into a BS guilt trip. It's no different than people blaming Jewish people for the crucifixion of Christ. It happened, it's over. Can't be changed! Nobody is alive who was responsible!
I don't care who has more pull, wise is wise and dumb is dumb. They'll probably build the hotel but that doesn't make it a wise decision. People act as if having an opinion, question or concern is somehow anti-Chumash and to all of those people I say go suck an egg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goleta_S...

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

btw they might consider moving that sewage plant before the ocean rises.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Chumash Casino and their other businesses employ over 1,700 local people and contribute huge amounts to the county's economy. Instead of dealing with the tribe as a valued partner, the supes and their hysterical valley constituents decided to fight. Now the county and the critics will reap what they have sown. The only people the Chumash have to answer to are in Washington DC. Memo to LA transplants that think that they own the valley, get used to a much larger tribal presence or get out now.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And the Chumash also donate a lot to local charities, lets not unfairly demonize them. I'd be surprised if many of the LA transplants are against the hotel because that's more wine money. Be all that as it may, I think it's a mistake and I'm entitled to that opinion!
In addition partnerships are two way streets, not "give me what I want no matter it's impact on you".

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Chumash called the county's bluff and now the supes have no say so as to development by the Chumash. Ken you are entitled to your opinion just like the other posters on this thread. You were the one throwing around the astroturfer insult.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel Grynszpan,

It isn't the Chumash who have "pull", but those billionaire casino moguls who are using Chumash sovereignty to escape state restrictions on gambling. It helps to have poor, Native Americans, front for schemes that would be rejected otherwise.

dewdly (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Once again Doody is letting his crap hole do the talking. All od the Chumash reservation property is held on trust by the US government. They cannot buy or sell that property without the ok of Congress . The billionaire casino moguls that somehow control the casino only exist in you seriously jacked up brain.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Someday the ocean will rise per global warming, the dolphins will take over, and we'll have all the water we need.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 3:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel,

Casinos are not land. There is no need to buy anything from the Chumash to get them to allow casinos and hotels to be built on Indian land.

Why are you protecting billionaire casino moguls?

dewdly (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The casino and the land that it is on is held in trust by the US. Indian gaming is heavily regulated by the state of California. That is reality. You can hang onto what ever bull crap ideas that jump into your flash flag freakshow head. Please just STFU about things that you know nothing about oh wait that covers just about everything better yet STFU forever.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The spot where the north/south runway of the current airport is was the deepest inlet of the Slough and was not filled by the floods of the 1860's. It survived a long, long time, until filled with dirt & graves from Mescalitan Island.

The skeletons were so thick in that dirt that the workers called it Skeleton Island. A fair chance Cabrillo's bones were there.

There has not been one government in charge of the Mideast since Jesus was crucified. There has been one government in charge of California since 1850, and that government condoned genocide. The reparation that has been worked out has been to let the California Indians control casino gaming. I'm not at all convinced that outside interests control the Chumash, although surely many California casinos are controlled by South African and Israeli interests.

Anything the Chumash do won't be worse than Solvang, a phony Danish town filled with hotels and tourists. Now I like it, actually, I like Denmark. But it is totally out of place.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 5:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Danish settlers created Solvang, so as a Danish settlement it's as authentic as Santa Barbara is Spanish.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The whole slough history is wild.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 5:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel: Telling somebody to "STFU" means you don't have a valid counter-argument or you have an anger-management issue.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 6:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Solvang's Danish folklife is fine, although, out of place & climate.

But really, an `As Seen on TV Store' ? The breakfast & pastry places are great, but a lot of junky stores have taken root there too, and lots of tourists waddling around dropping sticky junk food on the sidewalks. I don't see the difference with a Casino.

sevendolphins (anonymous profile)
August 6, 2014 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You're right sevendolphins there is not much difference at all! I haven't been to Solvang in awhile but we used to have one of those stores on State. I'm sure local residents make use of it. One of the issues with SB is that there are fewer and fewer places to go buy a stereo or refrigerator etc.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
August 6, 2014 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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