Marian Kemensky, Slovakia

Nothing New in the West

The False Unity of This Year’s Wartime Tributes

Sunday, June 29, 2014
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World War I began 100 years ago, and in early June we mark the bloody D-Day Allied landings in the war that followed it. World War I shattered the European Enlightenment’s rosy illusions about scientific “progress” and the perfectibility of human reason. But World War II’s D-Day unity — the Commies working with the Capitalists — is hardly present today: Did you observe the ugly body language between Putin and Obama at this year’s June 6 Normandy celebration?

The Great War killed tens of millions and made hollow the results of the industrial revolution. Its onset is a truly compelling milestone in recent Western history, and we would perhaps do better to study the origins of the devastating Great War (1914 –1918) than to make gaudy commemoration of the brave beachhead landings in Nazi-held France 70 years ago.

When World War I began with the Austrian Archduke’s assassination, it was a struggle between Europe’s dominant empires. The first cracks of decay and crumbling among Europe’s elite machine cultures became apparent, a decline that continued throughout the 20th century. The Second Word War on this reading is simply a horrendous continuation of the first.

In 1919, when W.B. Yeats wrote his often-quoted line “things fall apart / the centre will not hold,” we observe authentic prophesy because il Duce and Hitler animated that rough beast and wiped out more of the best and the brightest in a second round of an Armageddon. The faith in Western rational leadership evaporated, and many Brits bitterly spoke of their soldiers and generals as “lions being led by donkeys.”

The horrifying WWI death totals were followed by the Great Depression, fascism in Germany, British kowtowing and appeasement of Hitler in 1938 Munich, and then the Holocaust inside a second imperial war indissolubly hooked to 1914.

Today, EU countries such as Greece, Spain, and Portugal topple like walls of dried mud into ennui and economic stagnation, and a resurgent right wing performs very well in French elections — notably, Marie Le Pen. In this country, Obama’s preferred “pivot toward Asia” is getting wrenched back into old-style Euro-centrism because of Putin’s wild gambits into the Crimea and Ukraine. The former KGB agent threatens to haul us back to the brutal 20th-century style of war, in fact, back into conditions similar to those holding sway in 1914 imperial Europe.

Then, nationalist and anarchist groups like Young Bosnia and the Black Hand attacked the peripheries of “empire” (the Archduke was next in line for the Austro-Hungarian Empire’s throne), and imperial Russian interests clashed with the new Germany’s amazing industrial power, aggravated by Kaiser Wilhelm’s lust for imperial respect. Today, the Western world needs to focus on the burgeoning imperial contests in which we’re involved, especially in the Crimea and in Ukraine. Putin toys with Obama. We need to shore up Western Europe and the entire EU zone, and prevent more bands of Putin’s military-equipped gangsters from advancing west to infiltrate Slovakia, Romania, or even Poland, which were all once part of the Soviet Empire.

With the huge American military apparatus reeling from our debilitating imperial wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. Empire is in full retreat. As Obama blows the horn in brave speeches in Poland as well as in Asia, we sense some desperation. The Polish foreign minister openly mocks Obama and the toothless U.S.A. Meanwhile, citizens at home want lower taxes for the wealthy, renewed “open carry” gun rights, and zealous Tea-hadists clamor to weaken the federal government’s power. And now 300 “advisers” have been sent to collapsing Iraq.

When WWI erupted into full combat in August 1914, no one foresaw the unbelievable carnage that lay ahead, the utter defeat of Czarist Russia, or the new killing technologies’ hideous effects: light machine guns, accurate heavy artillery, barbed wire, poison gas, and submarines. Most of the Enlightenment’s golden promise of rational progress and the industrial revolution’s material plenty evaporated in Flanders Field with its 500,000 casualties. Bitter post-WWI art and literature show contempt for conventional bourgeois society and its leaders: Siegfried Sassoon’s poetry, Erich Maria Remarque’s All Quiet on the Western Front, Thomas Mann’s Magic Mountain, the Dada and Surrealist art movements, and the aptly named “Lost Generation” of American writers.

Today, all but three of our current NATO allies fail to contribute their required minimum 2 percent to the Alliance’s military budget. Are we moving our military machinery to forward bases in Germany, such as Grafenwoehr, and to other heavy weapons posts we still have on the continent? Does Obama realize Putin and the Poles see him as head of American imperial decline? Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, a former Communist like Putin, who speaks fluent Russian, has stated after long meetings with Putin: “He is in another world.” This was no figure of speech.

Putin dwells in an early 20th-century world, with a mindset similar to the conditions that led to WWI. When he speaks of greater Russia — Velikorossiya — it is reminiscent of Kaiser Wilhelm’s urgent need for the “new” Germany to garner imperial respect, the British Empire’s stranglehold on India, and the tottering Austro-Hungarian Empire’s need to hold down fractious provinces in the Balkans. Wilhelm had a withered arm, Putin has a withered 20th-century soul, and Obama begins to resemble British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain kissing Hitler’s feet in 1938 after being summoned to Munich twice that year.

Remarque’s world-famous novel was written in German with the original title Im Westen nichts Neues, with a better translation being “Nothing New in the West.” One hundred years later, how much has changed? All is not quiet on the Western front, and recent scenarios resemble the European empires’ competitive scrambles in the decades leading up to 1914.

Dan McCaslin has taught history at Crane School since 1980.


Independent Discussion Guidelines

Great article. Readers and world citizens in general need to be aware of the rise of a group called "Golden Dawn" in Greece which is invoking Hitler's racial and political ideology. They've begun rounding up the usual suspects: LGBT, immigrants, and acts of anti-semitism are on the rise in Greece via Golden Dawn, a name which references occultist Alister Crowley whether they're smart enough to know it or not.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Golden Dawn" and the occult - Yes, the elite often send coded messages through their naming conventions so anybody paying attention, which you are actually doing a great job of if you put the rest of the pieces together - "Golden Dawn" is being funded by pro-NATO intelligence ops and will likely be used as an excuse for NATO troops to invade with military force to control the region.

This article is full of holes and to me seems to be promoting American exceptionalism and increasing our military empire to "protect" countries like Ukraine when really the goal is to protect western business interests and resources in these regions.

"It's Totally Normal That Joe Biden's Son Works for a Ukrainian Energy Company
Hunter Biden was tapped last month to join the board of Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer."

The author says, "Putin’s wild gambits into the Crimea and Ukraine."

Really? How is operating within a treaty a wild gambit?

This author clearly wants us to go toe to toe with the Ruskies and is using a bunch of western propaganda. I feel like I'm watching a really bad version of Dr. Strangelove.

Do you remember when that neo-nazi group in Crimea was supposedly putting signs on the synagogues that Jewish people need to all register with their organization? Yaaa.. turns out that was a hoax, even Israel's top newspaper was good enough to report it, but here in the US? Nope, sorry, we get to go on believing the lies. It is amazing even Israel has much more open and honest journalistic integrity than the US, but we are the ones with the big guns and so it is required that we remain in the dark.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon writes, "'Golden Dawn' is being funded by pro-NATO intelligence ops and will likely be used as an excuse for NATO troops to invade" -- dude, Greece is already IN our alliance called NATO, and NATO already has troops there, duh!
Where is your citation for asserting that Putin's illegal invasion of Crimea was "operating within a treaty"?! What treaty would that be?

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 6:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Treaty of Wishful Thinking

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 7 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown, you need to learn the difference between an invasion and an occupation. NATO troops have not invaded Greece for crying out loud.

"CIA reportedly says Russia sees treaty as justifying Ukraine moves
March 03, 2014|By Ken Dilanian | (Sergei L. Loiko / Los Angeles…)

[Updated, 8 p.m., March 3: WASHINGTON — CIA director John Brennan told a senior lawmaker Monday that a 1997 treaty between Russia and Ukraine allows up to 25,000 Russia troops in the vital Crimea region, so Russia may not consider its recent troop movements to be an invasion, U.S. officials said."

What is wishful thinking is that I make up the things I say.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8 p.m. (Suggest removal)

History teacher Dan McCaslin wrote:
"Obama’s preferred “pivot toward Asia” is getting wrenched back into old-style Euro-centrism because of Putin’s wild gambits into the Crimea and Ukraine. The former KGB agent threatens to haul us back to the brutal 20th-century style of war, in fact, back into conditions similar to those holding sway in 1914 imperial Europe."

What a load of naive and empty-headed rubbish.

"In the early 1980s, a European top NATO admiral said that American colleagues at the Pentagon had told him, unequivocally, that the US and UK would not hesitate in creating a new European war if the situation ever arose that Europe and Russia, then the USSR, were to develop close relations."
— This Is Why Washington Has Sought To Create A Crisis In Ukraine

With the US State Department infested with neocons and psychopaths recycled from Cheney/Bush, the Wolfowitz doctrine [ ], described by Senator Edward M. Kennedy as "a call for 21st century American imperialism that no other nation can or should accept" — is still the basis of the USA policy toward Russia and China.

With the current administration's attempt to transform Syria from a low-level covert war to a far more brutal and destructive overt war foiled, at least for now, Ukraine is now the door these criminals and psychopaths think they can batter down to get at Russia. Hence the totally over-the-top-lies and false reality that the USA establishment media (now controlled by just six transnational corporations, all of which earn millions from war) has been pushing into the war weary overloaded minds of Dan McCaslin and what's left of its audience.

John Kerry's band of state department neocon goons and the corporate media have worked overtime to turn reality on its head, whitewashing the USA government's rapacious coup and painting a picture of covert Russian intervention and military threats to Ukraine, which reflect precisely what the USA has been engaged in for years.

Confirmation of this came again on 21 April 21, when former chief foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney and current Obama USA Assistant Secretary of State (and spouse of neocon Robert Kagan [ ], a Project for the New American Century (PNAC) [ ] co-founder and foreign policy advisor to Hillary Clinton) Victoria "f*** the EU" Nuland told CNN that the U.S. had spent over $5 billion promoting regime change in Ukraine.


JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)


The $1 billion loan guarantee Lois Capps [ ] voted (along with 384 of her fellow dupes and warmongers of the USA House of Representatives) to fund the Kiev junta apparently wasn't sufficient to motivate the Neo-Nazis to get the slaughter and chaos going in the east, and so the USA recently approved $17 billion of our tax dollars as an initial investment to prod the Obama/McCain/Cheney-Kagan-Nuland-PNAC far-right regime in Kiev to wage war on the eastern part of their own country, this time with better strings attached: the agreement stipulates that if these Neo-Nazis "lose control" of the east they'll lose some of the billions (and surely millions they'd otherwise be able to skim off for themselves).

To get that message across head CIA thug John Brennan was dispatched to Kiev [ ] on 12 April.

Following humiliating setbacks, including the desertion of many troops who wondered where the "terrorists" were that they were sent to slaughter, the attacks resumed immediately after the USA government promised more loot from USA taxpayers — and also announced that, since some Ukrainian troops proved reluctant to slaughter unarmed Ukrainian citizens simply for occupying buildings, the USA would continue funding, at the rate of at least $8 million per month, USA-based mercenaries who, in order to each earn up to $540,000 per year of USA taxpayer dollars [ ], would have no hesitation slaughtering foreign "terrorists."

In Kharkov, Lugansk, and other regions, people are rising to demand a referendum on broad autonomy or even independence from their USA-installed Kiev overlords who have sold them into virtual slavery ("austerity") to the IMF transnational bankers [ ] and criminals [ ].

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Do you know you're supporting a totalitarian proto Fascist dictator: Putin, who's squashed free speech and human rights in Russia. Nah you don't care about anything past your own puerile ego. You do not speak for the majority of anti-war activists JohnTieber. Go away. You make honest people's work all the harder with your BS.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

John Tieber supports war mongering if it's by another country, John Tieber supports the violence against LGBT people and the suppression of Free Speech. You're not a Peace Activist, you're a fraud.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Meanwhile Norway and Switzerland (and a few others) manage to get by very will without oppressing people and engaging in warfare.

Why aren't the Superpowers learning from them?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 8:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

loon, "Golden Dawn" is a far-right neo-nazi GREEK political party, see and note their swastika-like political logo. When you wrote " 'Golden Dawn' is being funded by pro-NATO intelligence ops and will likely be used as an excuse for NATO troops to invade with military force to control the region[.]" the only "region" that can be assumed is in fact GREECE, a longtime NATO member, so my earlier post stands, and you stand as an nincompoop who has no idea what he's scribbling.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 10:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

John Tieber writes "John Kerry's band of state department neocon goons" -- where do you get this gibberish, John? Kerry doesn't use Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Fukuyama, Cheney or Cheney substitutes, Krauthamer, Sowell, or other known neo-cons, so you are full of pseudo-Progressive kaka. Tighten up!

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 10:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There are some major criticisms of Rep. Capps, but "warmonger" is hardly one of them. Absurd.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 29, 2014 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown said:
"loon, "Golden Dawn" is a far-right neo-nazi GREEK political party, see and note their swastika-like political logo. When you wrote " 'Golden Dawn' is being funded by pro-NATO intelligence ops and will likely be used as an excuse for NATO troops to invade with military force to control the region[.]" the only "region" that can be assumed is in fact GREECE, a longtime NATO member, so my earlier post stands, and you stand as an nincompoop who has no idea what he's scribbling."

Wow DavyBrown, I completely understand all of that, you sure do need a lot of hand holding to understand things.

The CIA regularly funds opposition groups like neo-nazis and Al Qaeda (aka Al-CIA-duh) in order to have an excuse to invade the region with military force and ensure they have control over the political operations in that country.

Greece is going through a very tumultuous time right now economically and that has led to political instability. So in order to ensure that they continue to be a pro-NATO region intelligence operatives fund unsightly and extreme opposition groups, the media reports about these groups and then they have a pre-text for invasion and subsequently take control of the government. They are just preparing in case they need to do that.

These neo-nazi extreme views don't just rise out of the dust, Hitler was funded by the bankers, Al Qaeda is funded by the bankers, Russia is funded by the bankers, all of the extreme opposition groups are funded by big banking.

Try reading the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman, this has been a regular practice for decades and the strategy is probably much older than written history.

I don't think nor do I have to think Russia is a good country engaged in humanitarian practices in order to see that our country's actions are much worse in the grand scheme and I don't have to support either and I certainly don't have to support war against Russia..

This is what the book 1984 by George Orwell is about, we actually have people here essentially advocating war with Russia in order to have peace..

"War = Peace

Freedom = Slavery

Ignorance = Strength" - The Ministry of Truth

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 3:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

billclausen said:
"Meanwhile Norway and Switzerland (and a few others) manage to get by very will without oppressing people and engaging in warfare.

Why aren't the Superpowers learning from them?"

A better question is "Why are some countries super-powers and others are not?"

Do you think it is the people of those countries or the leaders? Who controls who becomes leaders of countries? I'll give you a hint, and I hate to be repetitive, but it's the big banks. Wars are expensive and require funding, banks have found it quite profitable to fund both sides of wars and then will stop funding the side they want to lose, then hold their country as debt hostages. If you recall from history Europe was completely beguiled into wars throughout the middle and final half of the previous millennium. As people became more educated they became more wary of these wars and the banks and the leaders of these countries had to become more creative into tricking the populations of their countries into supporting wars, especially as Democracy became more popular. 9/11 was like the crescendo of using the technique of tricking a country's population to support wars that benefit the elite economically and politically.

To stop the wars the banks must be exposed.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 3:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

loon, please see a therapist about your "bankers" obsession, you are clearly ill. As H-G often says, don't feed the trolls. Over and out.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 5:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For anyone interested in Ukraine information, and who does not want to rely on a Crane School history teacher who apparently has been bamboozled by USA-based corporate media that always promotes war because it collectively earns many millions of dollars of additional advertising revenue from war, I strongly recommend The Saker (with whom I have no connection).

Writing from FloridaA at The Vineyard of the Saker [ ] , The Saker provides, in my opinion, the most penetrating and incisive coverage* of the USA empowering vicious Nazis in Ukraine. Even the comments are informative and perceptive. 

* You can confirm this by skimming his RSS feed page [ feed:// ] .

I particularly recommend the six posts below.

[04:39] '"For Inna" - a video which should be circulated worldwide'

^ *** WARNING: extremely graphic live footage begins at [02:13]

[01:18] 'Save Donbass People from Ukrainian Army!'

'Translation of the "must read" article of explaining why there is no Russian intervention in the Ukraine'

'Considering the "what ifs" and "then whats" of a direct Russian intervention in the Donbass'

'A scorecard for the US "lukewarm war" on Russia - strategic and tactical levels
15 June'

'Ukrainian Successors to Hitlerite Wehrmacht Rape and Murder in Saurovka'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 6:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

At June 29, 2014 at 10:44 p.m. DavyBrown wrote:
"There are some major criticisms of Rep. Capps, but "warmonger" is hardly one of them. Absurd."

Careful readers will have noticed that DavyBrown mis-read this passage…

"The $1 billion loan guarantee Lois Capps [ ] voted (along with 384 of her fellow dupes and warmongers of the USA House of Representatives) to fund the Kiev junta."

…from my comment at June 29, 2014 at 8:30 p.m.

Like many of her consituents, I consider Lois Capps [ ] , at least regarding international issues, like most of the US Congress (note "384" in the passage above), to be a dupe who votes however she's told to vote.

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 8:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

your site is garbage, Tieber, and Vineyard of the Saker, which I checked, leads back to
and there you can read statements like "Kiev junta wages criminal punitive operations against the people of eastern Ukraine.." How much is Putin or his surrogates paying you? Troll. Agree with KV: "Go away. You make honest people's work all the harder with your BS."
For other posters, try Anatole Kaletsky's thoughtful column in the 6/27/14 ed. of the "International New York Times" titled "Powder keg of 1914 looks too familiar".
McCaslin could have added how the CHINESE EMPIRE is also nibbling away at US hegemony by trying to take over the So. China Sea, pressing hard on Vietnam and the Philippines.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 8:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For those interested in Ukraine, at June 30, 2014 at 6:59 a.m. I recommended Florida-based 'The Vineyard for the Saker' [ ] , for the most penetrating and incisive coverage, and specifically, six posts for introductory information.

Readers here with military experience (as well as others) might find ongoing posts in three categories particularly interesting:

• briefings of Igor Strelkov, Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) Minister of Defense
• ANNA News Agency Novorussia News Bulletins

I've posted a representative sample from each category below; I've arranged these chronologically so, if pressed for time, one might want to first sample the final item of each category.

And again, if time permits: don't neglect the comments at 'The Vineyard for the Saker' [ ]. Unlike on some sites ( ;-) ), nearly all are informative and perceptive.



'Ukraine SITREP June 20th, 13:30 UTC/Zulu: Slaviansk encircled'

'Ukraine SITREP June 24th, 14:33 UTC/Zulu'

'June 25th Combat SITREP by Juan'


'Latest statements from Igor Strelkov (June 22)'

'Igor Strelkov's Combined Briefings, June 23, 2014'

'Igor Strelkov's Combined Briefings, June 24, 2014'

'Strelkov, Berezin and Militia Briefings, June 27-28, 2014'


[VIDEO - 02:56] 'June 22nd Novorossia News Bulletin by the ANNA news agency'

[VIDEO - 02:36] 'June 23rd Novorossia News Bulletin by the ANNA news agency'

[VIDEO - 01:56] 'June 24th Novorossia News Bulletin by the ANNA news agency'

[VIDEO - 02:26] 'June 25th Novorossia News Bulletin by the ANNA news agency'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 8:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nature abhors a vacuum. Mr. Obama is a vacuous U.S. president.

JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

American Manifest Destiny, reasons behind the War with Mexico, is no different than what Putin is doing now. United States sent Fremont by land and American warships to capture California, in all the current States of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and parts of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Wyoming. Total Mexican territory was reduced from 1.7 million square miles to just 800 thousand square miles.

Its called Resources and Putin is doing nothing that the USA has not already done, add the final solution for the native american problem and its all the same crap over and over again, no Enlightenment at all.

The only Enlightenment was this,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

But the enlightened did not have the Balls to implement the "Truth", so its same old same old, every social system from Far Right to Far Left fails because it is fails to implement the "Truth".

Now that academic fool Woodrow Wilson,

USA needlessly entered WWI in April 1917, with a public debt of 1.5 billion and at the end of WWI a public debt of 27 billion, the conditions forced upon the loser by Wilson lead to the mess that has been going on since.

Coupled with the creation of the Federal Reserve, 16th and 17th Amendments and other acts in this time period, you have the new deal, same as the old deal, what Enlightenment?

Woodrow Wilson is responsible for much of the World mess since WWI.

As the circle comes around again we brace ourselves for the coming Resource Wars.

China has its training wheels aircraft carrier and about to launch a real one, maybe more. Vietnam has Chinese troops on its border and a Chinese drilling rig in its territorial waters. China is building an island in the Philippines. China is pushing Japan.

Russia has Nat Gas and Oil and Europe will pay dearly for it, especially when they get cold, and Russia needs the bread basket of Ukraine.

Governments serve themselves and their Cronies, it has been that way since Neanderthals grouped together in hunting parties.

No Utopia but the best I have found started here:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

You have implement the "Truth", no free lunch, it will cost, but be worth the price you pay. I summit than humans are incapable implemenation and just continue doing the same harmful activities until Nature finally takes us out.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For a credible account of Russia's human rights abuses under Putin, see:

Putin apologists would rather disinform you about the Ukraine than inform you of the truth. What kind of "peace activist" would condone Putin's oppressive oligarchial regime? A fraudulent one.
What's the point of protesting income inequality in the US but ignoring the far greater gap in Russia, if you're going to tout Putin as your hero.

BTW, nice summation HGWV.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok wrote:
"JohnTieber. Go away. You make honest people's work all the harder with your BS."

"John Tieber supports war mongering if it's by another country, John Tieber supports the violence against LGBT people and the suppression of Free Speech. You're not a Peace Activist, you're a fraud."

DavyBrown wrote:
"…where do you get this gibberish, John?…so you are full of pseudo-Progressive kaka. Tighten up!"

"your [sic] site is garbage, Tieber…How much is Putin or his surrogates paying you? Troll."



JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Though this post by Crane School history teacher Dan McCaslin is not exclusively about Ukraine, there appears to be much interest here in that issue.

For ongoing coverage, I strongly recommend Florida-based 'The Vineyard of the Saker' [ ]. See my comments at June 30, 2014 at 6:59 a.m. and at June 30, 2014 at 8:19 a.m.

I haven't checked to determine whether the article below "leads back to wikispooks" (DavyBrown at June 30, 2014 at 8:09 a.m. ;-) ), but for background, below (with excerpts) is an excellent piece by the widely-renowned Pepe Escobar. It also touches on what Crane School history teacher Dan McCaslin, echoing USA government mouthpieces, refers to as the USA's “pivot toward Asia," but that much of the world refers to as the "China containment tour."

'The future visible in St Petersburg'
Pepe Escobar / Asia Times


"In more ways than one, last week heralded the birth of a Eurasian century…

"And on Friday, Russian President Vladimir Putin, fresh from his Shanghai triumph, addressed the participants and brought the house down…

"Were there fewer Western CEOs in town because the Obama administration pressured them - as part of the "isolate Russia" policy? Not many less; Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley may have snubbed it, but Europeans who matter came, saw, talked and pledged to keep doing business.

"And most of all, Asians were ubiquitous…


JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)


"That was just one instance of the fast-emerging Eurasia coalition bound to challenge the "indispensable" exceptionalists to the core. Comparisons to the Sino-Soviet pact are infantile. The putsch in Ukraine - part of Washington's pivot to "contain" Russia - just served to accelerate Russia's pivot to Asia, which sooner or late would become inevitable…

"For Washington, this is beyond anathema. The response has been to peddle a couple of deals which, in thesis, would guarantee American monopoly of two-thirds of global commerce; the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) - which was essentially rebuked by key Asians such as Japan and Malaysia during Obama's trip - and the even more problematic Trans-Atlantic Partnership with the EU, which average Europeans absolutely abhor…Both deals are being negotiated in secret and are profitable essentially for US multinational corporations…

"There's more. One day before the clinching of the Russia-China gas deal, President Xi Jinping called for no less than a new Asian security cooperation architecture, including of course Russia and Iran and excluding the US. Somehow echoing Putin, Xi described NATO as a Cold War relic...

"And guess who was at the announcement in Shanghai, apart from the Central Asian "stans": Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and crucially, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani…

"So this is what Washington gets for over a decade of wars, incessant bullying, nasty sanctions and trillions of misspent dollars…

"As for Ukraine, it might as well, as Putin remarked in St Petersburg, pay its bills.* And as for the European Union, at least outgoing president of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso understood the obvious: antagonizing Russia is not exactly a winning strategy…

Of course the usual shills will keep peddling that the only possible future is one led by a "benign" empire. As if billions of people across the real world - even informed Atlanticists - would be gullible enough to buy it…

* Ukraine…pay its bills:

Note this ZeroHedge piece, posted a few hours ago:

'Russia Reveals "Plan B": Gazprom Says Gas Transit Via Ukraine May Be Stopped Completely'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yet Tieber doesn't condemn anti-LGBT violence nor violence against religeous minorities inside Russia and oppression of women. Instead he posts more lengthy word soup and links to garbage sites run by the deceitful and paranoid. Give it up Tieber, you're exposed as a fraud.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok wrote:
"Yet Tieber doesn't condemn anti-LGBT violence nor violence against religeous minorities inside Russia and oppression of women...."

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks for proving my point Tieber, you're a fraud.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Can't bring yourself to defend women or minorities but you're sure hot to defend Putin. Disgusting.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For those interested in Ukraine, here's another excellent background piece, an interview with Francis Boyle, a USA-based Russian expert, magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School, currently professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law ( biography: ).

I've included, in the excerpts, material which may shed light on where Crane School history teacher Dan McCaslin's Russia views may be coming from.

'Prof. Francis Boyle: The Brown (Shirt) Revolution In Ukraine'


"I’ve been to Ukraine and...I went through the same PhD program at Harvard that produced Zbigniew Brzezinski before me and Richard Pipes, both of whom were, are ardent Russia haters...

"I had Pipes for imperial Russian history, again, another expatriate Pole who hates the Russians with passion. Pipes was so bad in his course on Imperial Russian history, he used to break into sweat when he was lecturing on Peter the Great or Catherine the Great and had to take a handkerchief out of his pocket and wipe his brow…

"And that is really part of the problem here in the United States, when it comes to Russian studies, that so much of it is biased against Russia inherently."

"It is a fact that since 9-11-2001, the US Government has been in the business of destroying countries and using NATO as it principle instrument. That was stated more than a decade ago by then US Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and later by General Wesley Clark. The Pentagon drew up a list of 7 states that were to be destroyed: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Syria and they have systematically proceeded to destroy all of the Countries on the list. The strategy in Ukraine is the same, US/NATO/EU are promoting the destabilization and the breakup of Ukraine in order to achieve the NATO goal of moving into Ukrainian territory closer to Russia…

"So, I think this really has to be understood in terms of the gradual movement of NATO further to the east in violation of the pledge that George Bush Senior and Jim Baker gave to then President Gorbachev that if he agreed to the reunification of Germany, NATO would move no farther east, towards Russia’s boundaries...

"Well, this I think is part of their plan to see the crackup of the Russian Federation, at the end of the day...

"As we know from the [Victoria] Nuland [current USA Assistant Secretary of State, former chief foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney] tape here with the Ambassador in Kiev, she admits they had spent at least $5 billion right away now trying to promote opposition to the democratically elected government in Ukraine…"

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, so now you are essentially promoting a nuclear Holocaust over minority rights, don't you think there is a better solution? Gandhi comes to mind.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

rant on, Tieber: yawn.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Father Coughlin is back in the form of Tieber and Loon.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown, you have no more credibility here. You accused me of lying when I said that Russia had a treaty with Ukraine to move troops in, and I gave you a statement straight from our CIA director proving I was right.

Maybe you should actually read JT's posts, he just proved what I was talking about above about NATO using intelligence operations to destroy countries and take over and installing NATO friendly leaders and he did so using statements that come from some of our own leaders. You need to read and think more rather than just coming back with insults that have nothing to do with the content of these arguments. I've said it in other discussions and I will say it here, you are not going to bring the discerning reader over to your side with constant name calling when you lack the facts and ability to state your case in a logical way.

The reason I'm "obsessed" with bankers is because they are responsible for killing billions of people in our recent history by supporting and funding the most atrocious dictators and by funding both sides of every war and have been doing so for centuries. If you spent any amount of time finding out how they go about accomplishing this by counterfeiting currency into existence and stealing the wealth of entire nations, you would be pretty upset too. But unfortunately you will probably never have the mental fortitude to accept the reality of this situation because you only want to see the world the way it is presented to you on the boob tube.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at noon (Suggest removal)

yawn, you've never had any credibility loony, and many posters on other threads have said the same thing, rant on

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, so I don't want to start a nuclear Holocaust = I am anti-Semitic

I haven't heard that one yet.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

no TV, fool

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I will accept I don't have any credibility with those who worship the boob tube, I'll take that as a complement.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You worship YouTube Loon, who are you to point fingers? You get all your "info" from mostly anonymous sources and you wonder why people think you're nuts?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok, you worship people who worship the boob tube then, it's all the same crap corporate propaganda.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you mean myself Loon you're really out to lunch! You've yet to meet a madman you didn't believe, nor a logical explanation based on facts you refuse to believe.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

typically I read actual books, since you have trouble reading my posts I assume actual tomes are too tough for you, loon. You poor guy, you need help with your OCD.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't worship youtube or any particular media site, but I tend to find that news sources that are truly independent and not affiliated with corporate media have much more credible and logical information. It's more difficult to sort through and maybe not 100% accurate all the time, but corporate media is pretty much 95% spin propaganda or just completely inaccurate so I feel you get a much better picture that route.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This was written in February:

"Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

When riot police were sent to beat the students, who came to defend them? More “Afghans,” but “Afghans” of a very different sort: Ukrainian veterans of the Soviet Red Army, men who had been sent to invade Afghanistan during after the Soviet invasion of that country in 1979. These men came to defend “their children,” as they called the students. But they were also defending a protest initiated by a man born in Kabul at the very time they were fighting their way toward it."

"Whatever course the Russian intervention may take, it is not an attempt to stop a fascist coup, since nothing of the kind has taken place. What has taken place is a popular revolution, with all of the messiness, confusion, and opposition that entails. The young leaders of the Maidan, some of them radical leftists, have risked their lives to oppose a regime that represented, at an extreme, the inequalities that we criticize at home. They have an experience of revolution that we do not. Part of that experience, unfortunately, is that Westerners are provincial, gullible, and reactionary.

Thus far the new Ukrainian authorities have reacted with remarkable calm. It is entirely possible that a Russian attack on Ukraine will provoke a strong nationalist reaction: indeed, it would be rather surprising if it did not, since invasions have a way of bringing out the worst in people. If this is what does happen, we should see events for what they are: an entirely unprovoked attack by one nation upon the sovereign territory of another.

Insofar as we have accepted the presentation of the revolution as a fascist coup, we have delayed policies that might have stopped the killing earlier, and helped prepare the way for war. Insofar as we wish for peace and democracy, we are going to have to begin by getting the story right."

Since then, Putin asked the Russian parliament to rescind the permission to use troops in Ukraine, and Ukraine has signed a pact with the EU. News about the "facist coup" (false propaganda) has disappeared - the only news seems to be of Russian troops causing trouble in Ukraine.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

tabatha is reading some SCRUBBED material.....

Try this...

"It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.

"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

Putin bit back, taking a leaf out of the US street-protest playbook – even though, as in Kiev, the protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently have mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev became infiltration and insatiable aggression in Sevastopol and Luhansk.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.


loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)


So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement. Its rejection led to the Maidan protests and the installation of an anti-Russian administration – rejected by half the country – that went on to sign the EU and International Monetary Fund agreements regardless."

(more at link)

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tim Judah's series about the Ukraine in the New York Rev. of Books (e.g. a great one on June 19 ed.) is helpful and unbiased; he is also on the ground there. Before this thread was hijacked by the crazies, the focus had been on the deliberately false appearance of unity at the D-Day "celebrations" early in June, in which of course the mainstream media is complicit. Putin had been tossed from the G-8 meetings (now G-7), but Obama had to sit at a table with him. The cool cartoon, note, is by a Slovakian artist so we can see how much Slovakia is worried about Tieber's beloved monster Putin and Strelsky, his minion in e. Ukraine.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Doesn't anyone remember this phone call?!!!


It's the US caught red handed orchestrating the coup in Ukraine.

I'm afraid the evidence is overwhelmingly with JT. Even if Putin is a-hole.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's Nuland promoting the coup in front of Exxon and Chevron posters.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 10:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Great, now Tim Judah can go on my list of corporate propaganda artists, thanks DavyBrown I'm finally learning from your posts!

Funny how "the crazies" always come out on top after the facts come in.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tim Judah's articles on the Ukraine are must reads. Anybody who refutes your fallacies Loon is sudden;y a propaganda artist so the term becomes meaningless.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
June 30, 2014 at 11:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

checked your site, random, & yeah Victoria Nuland said "F*ck the EU" and so on, but the BBC transcript notes it is fragmentary and from a Russian intercept....why trust this crap? Check the Judah WRITTEN ARTICLES in a solid publication like NYRevBks. Gosh, loon, do the "crazies always come out on top"? How wonderful, and you're at the top of the list. Have you checked in with your therapist yet about those delusions? Remember, the USA according to you is behind those panga boats full of weed and illegals, that makes no sense and is just another piece of paranoid conspiracy garbage. You poor guy.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 3:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I opened my first comment here (at June 29, 2014 at 8:29 p.m.) with a one-sentence excerpt from the article below.

Those sincerely interested in the genesis of the Ukraine conflict (which goes back at least to 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union), might be interested in more from that article, with particular emphasis on petrodollar and energy issues.

Excerpts below are from:

'This Is Why Washington Has Sought To Create A Crisis In Ukraine'

"The American economy is already teetering on bankruptcy, with a total debt of $17 trillion, and spiraling. American bankruptcy and social implosion is an eventuality that is so far only postponed by the dollar’s continuance as the standard currency for international trade in fuel, and the de facto license for the US Federal Reserve to keep printing money way beyond any sound economic basis for doing so...

"The strategic danger for the US is twofold. Firstly, a close relationship between Moscow and Europe would remove the rationale for America’s military role in NATO and thereby its political influence in Europe. The second is that the European-Russian energy trade undermines the role of the American dollar as the world’s reserve currency...

"The development of Russian-European partnership would leave the US politically, culturally and economically isolated within no more than 25 years...

"Central to the American rationale was, and continues to be, the issue of energy fuel. Washington does not want to see European and Russian economies integrating on the vital issue of trade in oil and gas, the foundation for economic and social development...

Over the past two decades since the end of the Cold War between the US-led West and the former Soviet Union, Europe and Russia have seen substantial alignment of their economies, primarily due to the enormous oil and gas volumes supplied by Moscow. European-Russian bilateral trade is well over $1 trillion annually, and is some tenfold that of US-Russian trade...

"With the new pipelines of the North Stream and the currently constructed South Stream, the role of Russia as the main energy supplier to Europe is set to grow even more over the coming decades...

"This trend was always seen as a strategic danger by Washington. It can be argued that the Cold War from 1945 to 1990 was deliberately instigated by the US as a bulwark to counter the naturally inclined trade integration between Europe and Russia, owing to the latter’s prodigious energy reserves and its continental proximity...

"This is the background to why Washington has sought to create a crisis over recent events in Ukraine. Washington has played the key role in fomenting regime change in that country, which has seen the rise of an unelected fascist junta in Kiev that poses a serious threat to Russia."

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

And the Beat goes on,

FYI, the Mistral is an amphibious assault ship.

"Recall that about a month ago we reported that shortly after France was stunned to see its largest bank slammed by its bestest buddy, the US, with a record $9 billion fine, "France responded to the fine by announcing it will train hundreds of Russian seamen to operate the French-Made Warship", the Mistral. In other words, for all the angry rhetoric of sanctions against Russia, France was merely the latest country to admit that it too can't exist without Russian business (not to mention natural gas) even if, or especially if, it means incurring US wrath which is taken out on its banking institutions. After all, if the US is engaging in scorched earth tactics France needs a stable trade partner, especially if it is one who turns on the gas, so to speak."

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

JT is spot on.

It's about controlling the gas supply in Europe, justifying NATO and denominating energy trade in USD. All the evidence shows that the US was the instigator. Still people are believing the propaganda. Reading this thread is enlightening, because you can see that when people really want to believe, they will ignore all the facts.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DB "why trust this crap?"

The Nuland recording is the smoking gun. You can hear that it is Nuland's voice. You can hear the whole conversation. She outlines the events that subsequently take place in Ukraine. All the people that she selects to run the new government are exactly the people that did take over. Then she suggests that Joe Biden come to Ukraine for an "atta boy". And he did come, said "atta boy" to the lacky government and put his own son in charge of fracking Ukraine in the gass-hole.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Remember, the USA according to you is behind those panga boats full of weed and illegals, that makes no sense and is just another piece of paranoid conspiracy garbage."-DavyBrown

I'll need a little more context, I don't think you are conveying this theory I may or may not have had properly which means you must have never understood it to begin with. So this is essentially a straw-man.

I know I've ranted a lot about the Panga Boats, they have articles on them all the time and generally I just say that they are free market entrepreneurs and I welcome them here and would even help unload their boats if I happened to be in the area and knew I wouldn't get caught. They provide important goods and services as well as cheap labor that benefits our community.

I wouldn't be surprised if I said something about the CIA being behind one of the trips for some reason or another, and if you think doing that sort of thing is beneath them well then you are just being naive. But when you say that they are doing that, you have to give the motive for why they are doing it, which you did not and I would have done so in my post. Or maybe i was joking, but in order to defend myself I'm going to need a reference to the original post and not some lame interpretation by someone who doesn't understand how the intelligence community operates.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Let's just all ignore Russia's human rights abuses, actually I won't but some "peace activists" commenting here who are really American Neo-Fascists would like to distract you with bogus websites. SS Wolves in sheep's clothing.
Yes resources are the issue in the Ukraine, but also Putin's desire to reassemble the USSR. But again the modern Coughlins who do know this don't want you to know. They won't condemn Russia's human rights abuses because they secretly support such abuses. Give them the chance to condemn these abuses and they'll bs links instead and cry "ad hominem" and "strawman" without ever answering the questions.
There's been an influx of Bundy types here lately, disproportionate to the the SB community at large.
I'm sorry to see the Indy allow it's pages (and money) to be exploited and downgraded by outside fringers.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Russian propaganda machine is very persuasive. If the site is a .ru you can bet that the content is approved by the Kremlin. I am sorry to say that it is clear that Santa Barbara has its share of chumps who believe the Putin spin.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok wrote:
"Let's just all ignore Russia's human rights abuses…"
"They won't condemn Russia's human rights abuses because they secretly support such abuses…"


Ken_Volok also wrote:
"..commenting here who are really American Neo-Fascists…"
"SS Wolves in sheep's clothing…"
"..the modern Coughlins…"
"There's been an influx of Bundy types here lately…"
"…outside fringers…"


JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"They won't condemn Russia's human rights abuses because they secretly support such abuses."-Ken

What a bunch of bologna. Just because I don't want to start a nuclear Holocaust with Russia I support their human rights abuses?!?! Really??

Here I commit myself to non-violence and I'm getting crap from a supposed peace activist who wants to go bomb Russia.... and supposedly I'm not a peace activist because I don't want to go bomb Russia. Is this what you want the peace movement to be, the US going around going to war with other countries?? Sorry, that's not my peace movement.

The really funny part is you actually think that the reason the US would attack Russia is because of Russia's human rights abuses, if you were actually paying attention to anything being posted you would realize that the reason the US wants to control Ukraine is to go frack there, Ukraine has huge natural gas reserves and our Vice President's son is now on the board of the biggest energy company in Ukraine. The corruption and deception is so obvious it's literally slapping us all in the face and you keep yelling on about bombing Russia and being a peace need to pay better attention to the real motives behind the actions you are supporting because they have nothing to do with each other.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

62 posts later, let's note the author's suggestion that the American Empire "prevent more bands of Putin’s military-equipped gangsters from advancing west to infiltrate Slovakia, Romania, or even Poland", and the nature of these imperial rivalries can be seen in the pre-W.W. I period. Hijackers like Tieber and loon, with their own crazy obsessions, tried to get this to be all about Ukraine. Merkel and others in EU are playing both sides, mouthing how they want sanctions but obviously they have huge trade with the Russian Federation an Putin is playing them... The use of the term "fascists" is employed by both sides, but the bigger issue is that Obama needs to give Putin a modest head-slap... let's reopen negotiations for anti-missile missile bases in Poland and so on, let's beef up our armor and active military at our huge forward base at Grafenwoehr (I worked there once) and station more combat aircraft at Ramstein Airbase, etc. I do not want war, but pandering to a vicious as*hole like Putin is like Chamberlain imagining he could negotiate with the Fuehrer over the issue of the Sudetenland Germans...
Agree H-G that we have some dupes and dopes posting here who have fallen for .ru propaganda.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Davy, thanks for taking a moment to step back and try to bring things to perspective. Please allow me to do so now as well.

All I'm asking is that my taxes go toward defending the United States from foreign aggression and if you want to go police the world then you can create a private organization and a private military and go get funding for it. Hell, I might even donate if I felt that your organization was committed to defending vulnerable countries, helping oppressed minorities and that those people truly welcomed the assistance.

What I object to is having my wealth forcibly confiscated so that we can go install central bank sponsored energy corporations in Ukraine while creating all sorts of divisiveness and violence within the local population.

That is the crux of why I support private, voluntary actions because if your organization started becoming involved in what I feel are immoral activities I can easily withdraw my financial support. If I decide to withdraw my financial support from the US government because I believe they are acting immorally, I will get kidnapped by IRS thugs and thrown in a cage.

Is it too much to ask that I have a choice about what actions the wages from my own labor support?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 12:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Another opportunity to condemn the murderous suppression of free speech and minorities in Russia and Tieber's response is more simpleminded links. I rest my case.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 12:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ukraine had the resources in WW2 and Stalin went in for the kill. Nothing has changed, only the face of oppression has changed from an atheist to a religious fundamentalist.

6 million starved to death in Ukraine in WW2 by Uncle Joe. Wonder what will happen this time.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Getting back to the WWI analogy;

Viktor Yanukovych would be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand,
and Victoria Nuland would be today's Gavrilo Princip.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Let's show that big bad Putin who's boss. Time to repeat history.

"You shall love peace as a means to new wars - and the short peace more than the long."

- Nietzsche

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 4:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@billclausen The Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union when WW2 started. The famine there was before the war. For most of the war it was under German control. When they left they destroyed everything.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't recall if 'The Nation' is supposed to be considered left or right — entirely because, as recognized now by a majority of the USA population according to recent polling, these distinctions are mostly irrelevant: the war between liberals and conservatives is a false divide-and-conquer dog-and-pony show created by the powers that be to keep the American people divided and distracted. The 99.9% (as represented by Occupy Wall Street, the TEA Party, and many others) vs. the .1% (as represented by the oligarch Koch Brothers, the oligarch felon George Soros, and many elite federal politicians) is more relevant.

For those who might still automatically trust USA-based media more than non USA-based media, even within the USA the silence regarding Ukraine is beginning to crack; here's a piece from 'The Nation,' posted yesterday:

'The Silence of American Hawks About Kiev's Atrocities'

"For weeks, the US-backed regime in Kiev has been committing atrocities against its own citizens in southeastern Ukraine, regions heavily populated by Russian-speaking Ukrainians and ethnic Russians. While victimizing a growing number of innocent people, including children, and degrading America's reputation, these military assaults on cities, captured on video, are generating pressure...

"We may honorably disagree about the causes and resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, the worst US-Russian confrontation in decades, but not about deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have not already done so.

" declaring an "anti-terrorist operation" against the new protesters, Kiev signaled its intention to "destroy" them, not negotiate with them...

"On May 2, in this incendiary atmosphere, a horrific event occurred in the southern city of Odessa, awakening memories of Nazi German extermination squads in Ukraine and other Soviet republics during World War II…

"…Historians will decide what the US government and the "democracy promotion" organizations it funds were doing in Ukraine during the preceding twenty years, but much of Washington's role in the current crisis has been clear and direct...

"Contrary to the incessant administration and media demonizing of Putin and his "agents" in Ukraine, the "anti-terrorist operation" can be ended only where it began—in Washington and Kiev…

"Poroshenko's "peace plan" and June 21 cease-fire may have seemed such an opportunity, except for its two core conditions: fighters in the southeast first had to "lay down their arms," and he alone would decide with whom to negotiate peace. The terms seemed more akin to conditions of surrender, and the real reason Poroshenko unilaterally ended the cease-fire on July 1 and intensified Kiev's assault on eastern cities…"

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The war to end all wars". "Peace in our time". "When will they ever learn"

All the wars/conflicts we've been in for the last 50 years have sure made life in the U.S. better, haven't they? Yep.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JohnTieber, thanks for the article. I hope more people read it.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm sure this can wait until the President finishes watching the world cup...

touristunfriendly (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 6:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Fundamentally, people are dying over the price of gas. If the people of Ukraine want their own country, then they should have it. If the people of the East also want that right, why shouldn't they have it? The fight is about ownership of gas pipelines and wells. The fight is not between people in Ukraine, it is between Russian Oligarchs who currently own them and Western Oligarchs who mean to take them. It's an absurd reason for people to be killing each other.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 7:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Stalin's enforced "famine" in the Ukraine, part of Russia then, happened in early 1930s, not in W.W II -- see BLOODLANDS by Yale Prof. Tim Snyder, an eye-opening book.
Query random -- if a majority of Californians, say, with a near majority of Mexican-Americans [SB City is about 55% Latino], "want their own country, then they should have it" and join Mexico and vote that way, you'd be OK with that? Pres. Wilson's "national right of self-determination" in his 14 Points didn't work out so well in the inter-war period, so this feels like a no go.
I'll read the Nation article.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually I would vote yes, however, I would vote for California to print it's own currency and break away from the national debt. I think we would have no problem taking the western half of the US with us. We could maintain open borders East to West, but just accept a different currency and collect our own regional income tax and balance our own budget. Yes I'd vote for that.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 8:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If Ukrainia can secede, so can we.

I would have a constitutional monarchy, with Jay Leno appointed as King. The national symbol would be of course, a school of dolphins designed by Joseph Bottoms. The currency would be on the gold standard, since California is already known as The Golden State. The national anthem would be the Beach Boys' "California Girls".

I would then appoint myself Field Marshal and invade the neighboring states of Arizona, Nevada, and of course, Oregon, and use them as a buffer zone if real estate prices become unstable in those places. The capitol city would be Yorba Linda, the birthplace of Richard Nixon, in honor of our only homegrown Chief Executive.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 9:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

random_kook wrote:
"…The fight is not between people in Ukraine, it is between Russian Oligarchs who currently own them [gas pipelines and wells] and Western Oligarchs who mean to take them."

Certainly I agree with you on this, but I believe (and I'm not necessarily suggesting that you don't) it's a less fundamental element compared to the USA surrounding Russia since 1991, placing missiles right up on its borders, in an attempt to maintain the petrodollar [ ] as the world reserve currency forever — which isn't going to happen if history is any guide [ CHART: ].

Also, with the North Stream pipeline bypassing the Ukraine on the north, and the South Stream (Austria, right in the heart of Europe, just signed on a few days ago [ ] ) about to bypass it [ MAP: ] on the south — and the $400 billion Russia-China gas deal [ ] (that, like most deals among the BRICS bloc, will not use USA dollars) — I wonder how many Russian oligarchs care that these pipelines go through Ukraine, especially considering how much the USA has now destabilized that country.

Also, regarding the vicious Nazis: this is not hyperbole (and also not the first time the USA has backed Nazis in Europe [ ] ). The Nazis empowered by the USA in Ukraine are direct descendans of the Galician SS which, during WWII, were referred to as "the Nazis even Hitler was afraid of" [ ].

Perhaps this report, from six days ago, (' Ukrainian Successors to Hitlerite Wehrmacht Rape and Murder in Saurovka' [ ] ) might be considered not yet fully confirmed, but OSCE confirmed the bombing of the center of Lugansk by the Kiev junta Nazis…

[04:39] '"For Inna" - a video which should be circulated worldwide'

^ *** WARNING: extremely graphic live footage begins at [02:13]

…and there's very little dispute that the Kiev junta Nazis are responsible for the Odessa Trade Unions Building atrocity that deliberately burned 40 or more people to death [ ] or the Mariupol killings [ http://www.informationclearinghouse.i... ].

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 1, 2014 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

your persistent refs to "Nazis" means I invoke Godwin's Law here

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 12:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown wrote:
"your persistent refs to "Nazis" means I invoke Godwin's Law here"

Yes, 3000+ people dead, some by means of horrific atrocities, about triple that many maimed, and 100,000 to 300,000 driven from their homes is such a joke.

Your mother must be so proud.

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I won't just invoke Godwin's Law, I will enforce it with a vengeance.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

'Ukrainian military forces shell Kramatorsk'

Click directly above for just a small sampling of what occurred in southeast Ukraine last night, while we all slept in our warm beds — i.e. *not* huddled in a dank basement with dozens or hundreds of others, having not eaten for days or weeks, wondering whether the *residential* building over our heads will collapse, burying ourselves and our children alive, as it is deliberately shelled and mortared by — yes, vicious NAZIS — funded by the USA, trained by the CIA, and led by USA-based mercenaries (Blackwater, whatever its current name is, and others), each mercenary being paid up to $540,000 per year of our tax dollars.

Reports, video streams, and images from a wide array of independent media indicate that these USA-supported Nazis, as they promised they would do, are not just shelling and mortaring residential areas, but are also (1) deliberately destroying civilian infrastructure, such as water treatment plants and power plants, (2) systematically reducing entire towns and villages to rubble, (3) committing atrocities against civilians, (4) not allowing humanitarian aid to enter the region, and (5) not allowing civilians to leave the area.

Though not a COMBAT SITREP, the latest 'The Vineyard of the Saker' UKRAINE SITREP…

'Ukraine SITREP July 2nd, 12:33 UTC/Zulu: A first evaluation of the latest Ukie offensive on Novorussia'

… gives some reason for optimism, in particular, this:

"I have also noticed somewhat of a change in tone in the western corporate media. If the EU zombies are, again, threatening Russia with more (probably totally symbolic) sanctions, the western media seems to become aware of the plight of the civilian population of the Donbass."

The people of Europe, as well as *a few* in the USA, have known about, and resisted, this genocide for some time:

'UKRAINE: awakening to USA / EU / NATO lies; Germans resist USA Nazis; Kucinich; ANSWER; VFP petition'

(At the URL above, note particularly the first image.)

There's some indication, posted last night but *not yet confirmed elsewhere* as far as I can determine, that this USA-instigated and supported genocide may end soon:

'Obama Capitulates in Ukraine War: His Agents Seek Putin Peace Deal'

If it does not, for those who do not think this is all a joke, in the next comment I provide ten sites that, in about two minutes, one can load into a tabbed browser folder, so that with one click and 60 seconds or so spent at each site one can easily inform oneself of the most recent events there.

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 7:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)


Previously I've recommended the Florida-based 'The Vineyard for the Saker' [ ] as, in my opinion, the best source for daily Ukraine information and incisive analysis (and, in particular, at June 30, 2014 at 6:59 a.m., six posts for background information; and, particularly for readers with military experience, eleven posts at June 30, 2014 at 8:19 a.m.).

I've also recommended four additional articles for background information (at June 30, 2014 at 10:43 a.m., at June 30, 2014 at 11:41 a.m., at July 1, 2014 at 8:13 a.m., and at July 1, 2014 at 4:42 p.m.) for those sincerely interested in this issue but who lack the time to inform themselves, or who are unfamiliar with independent media.



Though increasing Ukraine information is coming through the 350+ RSS feeds I subscribe to, the largest part of which are independent media sites (most of which are USA-based, versus those below, that are based geographically closer to Ukraine, including, of course, Russia), I still find it helpful to keep the ten sites below in a tabbed browser folder, so that with one click and a few minutes of scrolling through ten tabs I can get some very fresh updates.

Regarding the Facebook pages, I'm not a member and likely never will be and, of course, one can't rely on the credibility of everything posted on these sites, but there are quite a few images and videos, for those pressed for time or who don't like to read.

'ITAR-TASS News Agency - eastern Ukraine TAG'

'BERKUT - Ukraine | Facebook'

'Truth about situation in Ukraine | Facebook'

'US, EU and IMF get OUT of Ukraine | Facebook'

'AntiMaidan | Facebook'

'Donbass Revolution | Facebook'

'Paula Slier - RT | Twitter'

'The Voice of Russia UKRAINE tag'

'Solidarity with the Antifascist Resistance in Ukraine'

'Kiev's bloody eastern Ukraine campaign LIVE UPDATES'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 7:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

troll Tieber, even has to reference my mother; that's all you got? silly boor.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 8:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Tieber adores Vineyard of the Saker, and this anonymous blogger writes of himself: "“I am a Russian Orthodox Christian, of a very traditionalist kind of persuasion and I have nothing, really absolutely nothing at all, in common with the rest of them.“ see
Russian nationalist.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 8:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown wrote:
"...even has to reference my mother..."

A result of some late night passion, for which I apologize — and note, for possible future reference: that comment would have been more effective without the final sentence.


"...that's all you got?...":

I'm 100% confident sincere readers here understand that those six words are not "all I've got."

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You've got nothing Tieber except a White Christalist agenda.
That's why he can't bring himself to defend women, religeous minorities and the LGBT in Russia.
Tieber, separation of church and state means separation. Something you and your pals Romney and Ryan need to finally learn or keep getting spanked.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

RE: Nuland "recording". Ever hear of editing?
Some commentators ion their paranoia and self hate are willing to assign a grand conspiracy to anything and everything USA/West. But apparently there are no conspiracies, unseen forces or malevolent agendas in Russia according to these same bloggers who accept Putin's propaganda as gospel.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Edited? You mean like the obviously fake Bin Laden tapes and videos that were released post 9/11 and paraded around on mainstream media?

Oh, wait a minute, if the video was fake then why did she apologize for making the comments instead of denying that she made them??

Nice try, though, really.

Is anybody keeping a tally on this?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The conspiracy is written out in plain english on a piece of paper in your pocket.

It says, "In God We Trust"

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Even if the tape had been faked, someone would have been portending the future through Nuland's voice, because the coup went down exactly as it was described including Biden's follow up.

And it's not just Biden's son inheriting Ukrainian gas reserves, it's also John Kerry's stepson Christopher Heinz.

Of course as Biden has stated, it's not a conspiracy, it's totally based on merit.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You are correct random-kook, a clear violation of the separation of church and state. Maybe it's time we actually do something about that instead of merely observing; time to remove "God" from the Pledge of Allegiance as well.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

While resources are the obvious motivation, the real issue is the preservation of Ukrainian sovereignty. People here are losing the forest for the trees.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

random_kook wrote:
"The conspiracy is written out in plain english on a piece of paper in your pocket…"


And that piece of paper is no longer an asset (i.e "silver *certificate*; rather, it's now a debt instrument: i.e. federal reserve *note*):

'Fed to the Sharks, Part 1: The Fed Takes Our Money, Gives It to Banks Who Loan It Back to Us at 16%'
[includes three charts]

'Fed to the Sharks, Part 2: Housing and the Death of the Middle Class'
[includes six charts]

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I see where KV is coming from. He's enraged at Putin for discrimination of gays. That's fine, Russia has a ways to go before Moscow get's it's own pride parade. But it's no excuse to start WWIII or topple governments or steal resources. But that's how the propaganda machine operates.
"Putin hates gays."
"Ok, let's nuke Russia and take their oil."
When we rebuild on the scorched earth and mass graves we can be sure to include a drag nightclub or two. Freedom and democracy for all, especially if they have valuable resources.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm more worried about our own sovereignty. If democracy is so great for Ukraine, why don't we have it here?

Besides, the current president of Ukraine was only voted in by the western half of the country. The eastern half had their own vote and chose a different path. But Kiev needs the resources in the east to pay the IMF their tribute. Hence, eastern fighters are dubbed insurgents and terrorists and the army is sent against them.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

random_kook wrote:
"I see where KV is coming from. He's enraged at Putin for discrimination of gays…"

Though Ken repeatedly attempted to goad me regarding this, I didn't respond for these four reasons:

(1) Considering the USA has caused the deaths of 30 million people, over 90% of whom were civilians, by initiating 201 armed conflicts [ ] in the past 60 years alone (how many, outside of Russia, has Russia murdered since the Soviet Union dissolved 23 years ago?), all of which were war crimes per international law, as they were against countries that did not attack us and posed no threat to us — I don't think it's appropriate to demonize other countries regarding human rights violations that have resulted in the deaths of less than 30 million people, if any.

(2) Russia's human rights violations within Russia are completely irrelevant to what's occurring in Ukraine right now, and I had no interest in changing the subject to one I have much less interest in.

(3) I'm not accepting requests for comments on particular subjects at this time. ;-)

(4) Russia's human rights violations are much exaggerated by those demonizing it and Putin for daring to resist USA hegemony:

'A Dangerous Game, or Why is the West Criticizing the Sochi Games, Bashing Vladimir Putin?'

'Distorted US media coverage of Putin and Russia: from Syria, Iran and Afghanistan to terrorism and Sochi Olympics'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"time to remove "God" from the Pledge of Allegiance as well."

I advocate removing the entire Pledge of Allegiance, what a bunch of statist worship.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"While resources are the obvious motivation, the real issue is the preservation of Ukrainian sovereignty. People here are losing the forest for the trees." -Ken

That is correct.

"Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine and join Russia, election officials said Sunday, capping a heavy-handed campaign that blocked most voters from hearing a vision for any alternative to unification with Moscow.

Crimean election Spokesman Mikhail Malyshev said the final result was 96.77 percent to rejoin Russia and 2.51 percent against."

Can I get another tally mark over here??

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You love the freedom America provides, but nary a shred of patriotism on her behalf?

JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

JarvisJarvis wrote:
"...but nary a shred of patriotism on her behalf?..."

Speaking of patriotism ;-) , to *everyone* still here***:


Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth [ ] just released [ ] a powerful brochure for distribution at 4th of July events.

From the cover ( [ ] are mine ):

9/11 Truth - Good for America!

* Stops Wars of Aggression
[i.e. corporate welfare: $4 trillion just for Iraq and Afghanistan]
* Restores Our Economy
[by eliminating most corporate welfare: $4 trillion just for Iraq and Afghanistan]
* Terminates the NSA's Unconstitutional Global Spying
* Restores Our Civil Liberties
* Abolishes the Torture, Extraordinary Rendition, and Assassination of U.S. Citizens
* Restores Our Country's Moral Foundation and Our Faith in Our Government

One can access the digital version of the brochure by clicking here:

(Use to navigate to and from the cover, the two inside panels, and the back; click any page to enlarge.)

The brochure insert, highlighting the key evidence at *all three* collapsed buildings of the World Trade Center, can be accessed here:


My comment at Santa Barbara's Noozhawk eleven days ago:

If you can only spare a few seconds, you might consider viewing the 16-second video linked from the URL directly above.

*** *everyone* still here: in addition, I sent this 4th of July greeting to 'The Saker' [ ], writing from Florida, and currently providing, more than once daily, in my opinion the best information and the most incisive commentary regarding the USA federal government empowering of vicious Ukrainian Nazis committing genocide in Europe.

One can confirm this by scanning his RSS feed (which, incidentally, unlike elsewhere, won't embed here, though this URL is accurate):


JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at noon (Suggest removal)

"You love the freedom America provides, but nary a shred of patriotism on her behalf?" -JarvisJarvis

We have more prisoners in this country than the rest of the world combined. The War on Drugs and the War on Terror have completely eviscerated our Bill of Rights.

The only reason things are relatively "good" here is because the dollar is used as the reserve currency for the world to purchase oil and trade. We can print as much money as we want because it ends up being shipped overseas to buy cheap goods. Dollars are in high demand by other countries because it is the only currency that is acceptable for trading oil and that is why we are able to continuously propagate these massive trade debts. In fact, countries who try and get away from trading their oil for dollars, like Iraq and Iran are persecuted by the international community through sanctions and war, even though other reasons are given to the general public.

Anyways, it's a house of cards that is about to collapse, it will not and cannot last forever.

Our leaders commit false flag terrorism against their own citizens, such as on 9/11, in order to get us into overseas conflicts and take away more of our rights.

The only reason we were given the rights we have by the elite was because they finally figured out that this free-range version of slavery causes the slaves to be more productive. Now that we have amassed a lot of wealth, they mess with the economy, creating huge booms and busts then confiscate the taxpayer wealth and pay off the banks, draining all of our country's wealth back to the banks who then buy up massive amounts of commercial property and corporations.

Mainstream media is filled with mind numbing entertainment that promotes entitlement and consumerism.

Ask me again in 5 or 10 years why I'm not patriotic, but I imagine by then you will be able to answer the question yourself.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think Patriotism should be replaced with humanitarianism. Who cares about the government? It's people that should come first. I'm sure Germany was an ok place to live at some point in the 50 or 100 years before WWII, but why should any of them pledged allegiance to a government that would become so inexplicably evil?

"Francis Bellamy, a Christian socialist, wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in 1892 as a critique of the rampant greed, misguided materialism, and hyper-individualism of the Gilded Age."

Also the original pledge was accompanied by what would become the Nazi salute, which was eventually replaced with a hand-over-heart.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Freedom in America means greater freedom to make bad choices as well as good ones. Good thing we also have a larger prison population that contains those who freely made bad choices.

They need to make better choices in the future. America first and foremost is a government of laws, rights and duties.

JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JarvisJarvis wrote:
"...Good thing we also have a larger prison population..."


[INFOGRAPHIC] 'Locked Up In America'

[ANIMATION] ' U.S. Imprisonment Rate Per 100,000 Residents, 1978-2012'

'Children Locked Up For Life: 10 Shockers About America's Prison System'

'37 States Allow Corporations To Get Rich Off Prison Labor'

'Profiting From Human Misery... The United States, from 1970 to 2005, increased its prison population by about 700 percent'

'The US Imprisons 2.2 Million People–Incarceration Is Big Business' (Chris Hedges)

'US prison population jumps 27% in a decade over harsh drug sentencing'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 1:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Five Facts the Media Isn’t Telling You About Ukraine

A recent study found that Americans’ attitudes about whether the US should intervene in Ukraine is correlated with the ability to find the country on the map.

Americans more in favor of intervention tended to be less likely to be able to locate Ukraine.

The media could have said the Russians invaded the lost city of Atlantis and the “ignorance is strength” crowd would still pound their chests about the need to intervene.

If you hear that the Russkies have aggressed in Ukraine and you believe Ukraine to be in… Iowa—as some of the respondents did—then you might be more in favor of nuking the bastards over it.

Given the dismal job the mainstream media has done covering the Ukraine crisis, this breathtaking ignorance is perhaps not surprising.

This is just what I have done for you so you can better understand the crisis in Ukraine, and possibly profit from it.

Below are the top five facts that the media isn’t telling you about Ukraine.

Fact #1: Yanukovych Was Legitimately Elected
(more at link..)

Fact #2: Billions Spent Stirring Up Trouble

The US has spent $5 billion since the 1990s on “democratization” programs in Ukraine. (What would the US reaction be if Russia spent $5 billion promoting communism in Mexico?)

In addition to overt US government programs from the US State Department, USAID, the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the International Republican Institute, nominally nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) like Freedom House, George Soros’ Open Society Institute, and the National Endowment for Democracy have all been heavily involved in “promoting democracy” in Ukraine for many years.

Fact #3: Yanukovych’s Ouster Had No Basis in Law

When Yanukovych was overthrown in February, it was done in a fashion that didn’t really comply with Ukrainian law. In effect, what happened was an illegal overthrow of a legitimately elected government.

Fact #4: The Sniper Killings, a Known Unknown

The real push for the immediate overthrow of Yanukovych came after the mysterious deaths of 75 or so people in the streets of Kiev by unknown snipers in late February 2014. The protesters blamed the government. However, later a leaked phone call between the Estonian foreign minister and Catherine Ashton (the EU foreign policy chief) showed that both the police and protestors were shot by the same people, leading these two EU officials (who are very anti-Russian, by the way) to think that this incident was some sort of false flag provocation.

Fact #5: Neo-Nazi Shock Troops

(More at link..)

The Bottom Line

While it is of course true that some segments of Ukraine resented being under the Russian yoke (I would too), it is certainly not the whole truth nor does it explain the bigger geopolitical picture.

(more at link..)

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Freedom in America means greater freedom to make bad choices as well as good ones."

lol, that is some doublespeak if I've ever heard it before.. You're saying people are free to commit non-violent non-crimes and then be kidnapped and put in a cage with violent criminals and rapists?

That sure is a lot of freedom, it's really filling the air, in fact I think I'm suffocating on freedom *belch* oops that must have been my diet coke.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm concerned about the brutal oppression of all peoples* in Russia, your response is to repost Putin's propaganda and links to theocratist. Your delusions of grandeur Tieber were quite amusing but have grown to be long and boorish, thankfully your theocratic agenda is dead in its track.
Jews, actual Christians, atheists, LGBT, Muslims, artists, journalists among many others. Only the simpleminded think acting in defense of these people is pushing the nuclear button, at least that's what some would like to scare you into believing.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey Ken stop it with the comments that make sense. I was having fun reading Loon's conversation with himself.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 6:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok wrote:

That reminds me ;-) :

I previously mentioned here (at June 30, 2014 at 6:59 a.m.) that, unlike some sites ;-), even the comments, nearly all, at 'The Vineyard of the Saker', are informative and perceptive.

Excerpted below, this comment... an excellent example — whether one agrees with all, most, some, or none (for me, regarding this particular comment, it's "most") — of such a comment, regarding NATO, from today's Ukraine SITREP:

'Ukraine SITREP July 2nd, 12:33 UTC/Zulu: A first evaluation of the latest Ukie offensive on Novorussia'

"...Sooner, rather than later, NATO will gather an army of well motivated 'veterans'- mercenaries recruited from across the NATO empire, and ever well trained/armed neo-Nazis.

"NATO wants a perpetual firestorm all across this flank of Russia..NATO and the USA are determined to place regimes into power that will allow NATO first-strike forces to be installed hard against Russia's borders.

"...wherever one ventures in the, one finds the message that Russia is seeking to rebuild the USSR by planning invasions into all the old Soviet European nations.

"This laughable (and illogical) nonsense is automatically believed by all the casual viewers/readers which equals 90%+ of the general public. And believe me, this is a numbers game. NATO and the USA need the (reluctant) hearts and minds of the people of the West, and by controlling the 'message' so ruthlessly, they get this support.

"Under such circumstances, Russia cannot afford to play a 'political' game. In the court of public opinion, they lack all the tools required to win this way. No, Russia simply needs to consider what is morally right, and act decisively...

"Of course Russia fears going into Novorussia will give the excuse to the USA to invade Syria, but sadly nothing can save Syria...

"The longer Putin waits to enter Novorussia, the worse things get for the entire planet."

02 JULY, 2014 16:27

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tieber, you can put your stock in an anonymous theocratist blogger, the rest of us aren't fools (and many of us aren't fooled by your sheep's clothing either.)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 6:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Once again let's try to get back to the writer's central point that the media made it seem like there was some "unity" among Western leaders at the June 6 D-Day event in France, and even bad boy Putin sat at the table (but not at G-8 now G-7).
Troll Tieber keeps hijacking the thread to Ukraine and how wonderful Putin is, characterizing the Kiev leadership as "the USA federal government empowering of vicious Ukrainian Nazis committing genocide in Europe." Enough of this BS, John, and yourusing "Nazi" shows you're a hack for Putin: again, Godwin's Law here. You also fail to acknowledge my takedown ref to the misleading Saker crap.
There is very serious disunity within the EU and also inside NATO: UK is falling apart and about to lose Scotland, PM Cameron got spanked by EU leadership and Merkel over Juncker, Germany is the real player but they are too wise (or selfish) to take the lead and anyway need Russian gas.
Ukraine is led by oligarchs ON BOTH SIDES, so what else is new?

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Is Scotland poised to secede? Polls on average show a two thirds vote for unity and one third for secession...

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For those following Ukraine:

The ANNA News Agency, blocked by YouTube yesterday, has relaunched on RuTube:

[02:17] 'July 2nd Novorossia News Bulletin by the ANNA news agency'

Also today, from Ray McGovern, the very widely respected ex-CIA analyst turned activist, currently steering group member of 'Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)' ( biography: ) :

'The Risk of a Ukraine Bloodbath'

And investigative historian Eric Zuesse today released:

'The U.S. Elite Run a Ukrainian Genocide While American Public Are Ignorant of It'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 10:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

good correction, Ken, recently the YES on Scottish independence has slid down dramatically:
Thanks, Davy

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 11:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So the Ukrainian military is now shelling civilian targets and elementary schools in the south east, killing innocent people and children.

The children refugees plead to the world #Don'tKillUs:

The US military is now sending over troops and B-2 bombers to back up the Ukrainian militlary!!!

All and minority rights?!?! Really, you think the people behind this are concerned about gay and minority rights??? You think that is why they are sending in billions of dollars in weaponry, for gay and minority rights in Russia??

All this anti-civil liberty stuff (which certainly exists at some level) is being drummed up to deceive people into backing this outside job military coup.. but the fact is more people are going to die so a small group of people including Joe Biden's son and Brzezinski's son can get rich on oil and there will be no increase in anybody's rights.

Interestingly, a recent conspiracy theory being propagated by mainstream media that Russia is behind a pro-environment anti-fracking campaign in Ukraine is being denied by Green Peace:

Lol.. you can't make this stuff up..

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 12:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Is Scotland poised to secede? Polls on average show a two thirds vote for unity and one third for secession...

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 2, 2014 at 9:38 p.m.

For those who support secession: If you don't secede, try, try, again.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 5:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting story on Scottish secession:

They want to secede to become more "progressive"

Well, in principle I have to give them that power, there's no reason they should feel the need to be ruled from Westminster. Hopefully though they will learn that giving people freedom is enough to help tackle their problems with poverty and such.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Could it be that Joe Biden actually exercises more influence in the Ukraine war than Obama?

And maybe Paul Wolfowitz was more influential in starting the Iraq war than George Bush?

Likewise, could it be that Stanley Fischer guides Fed policy more so than Janet Yellen?

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Risk of a Ukraine Bloodbath
July 2, 2014

Exclusive: Pressured by neocons and the mainstream U.S. media, the Obama administration is charting a dangerous course by seeking a military solution to Ukraine’s political crisis and possibly provoking Moscow to intervene to protect ethnic Russians, ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern warns.

By Ray McGovern

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko – by thumbing his nose at the leaders of Russia, Germany and France as they repeatedly appealed to him to renew the fragile ceasefire in eastern Ukraine – has left himself and his U.S. patrons isolated, though that’s not the version of the story that you’ll read in the mainstream U.S. press.

But the reality is that an unusual flurry of high-level conference calls last weekend from key European capitals failed to dissuade Poroshenko from launching major attacks on opposition forces in eastern Ukraine. Washington was alone in voicing support for Poroshenko’s decision, with a State Department spokeswoman saying “he has a right to defend his country.”
Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014. (Official Russian government photo)

As Ukrainian air and artillery strikes increased on Tuesday, so did diplomatic activity among the Europeans with the U.S. playing no discernible role in the peace efforts. There was no sign, for example, that Secretary of State John Kerry was invited to a hastily called meeting in Berlin on Wednesday involving the foreign ministers of Germany (Frank-Walter Steinmeier), France (Laurent Fabius), Russia (Sergey Lavrov), and newly appointed Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin.

This marginalization of the U.S. is a consequence of a well-founded suspicion that Poroshenko’s fateful decision to “attack” came with Washington’s encouragement. The continued provocative behavior of Secretary Kerry, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and other U.S. hardliners comes despite the fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin still holds the high cards in this regional standoff.

Putin has at his disposal a range of alternatives short of sending in tanks to protect the ethnic Russians of eastern Ukraine, many of whom had voted for President Viktor Yanukovych who was ousted in February by violent protests. The uprising was led by western Ukrainians demanding closer ties to Europe but was turned into a “regime change” on Feb. 22 through a putsch spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias contemptuous of the ethnic Russians living in the east and south.


loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)


Yanukovych’s ouster was strongly encouraged by Nuland, who handpicked Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be the leader of the interim government, while at least four ministries were awarded to the neo-Nazis, including the office of national security, in recognition of their key role in the final attacks that forced Yanukovych and his officials to flee for their lives.

Though hailed as “legitimate” by the U.S. State Department, the coup regime was rejected by many ethnic Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine. In Crimea, the population voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia, a development that U.S. officials and the dutiful mainstream media characterized as a Russian “invasion.”

Similarly, in the east, in the so-called Donbass region, ethnic Russians rose up and asserted their independence from the Kiev regime, which then deemed them “terrorists” and launched an “antiterrorist” campaign that incorporated some of the neo-Nazi militias as National Guard units deployed as shock troops to crush the uprising. Several bloody massacres of ethnic Russians followed in Odessa and other cities.

In May, the election of Poroshenko – in balloting mostly conducted in western and central Ukraine – held out some hope for a negotiated settlement with guarantees to respect the ethnic Russian population and greater autonomy granted to the eastern regions. However, Poroshenko had trouble getting control of his hardliners and he refused to negotiate directly with the rebels, leading to the failure of a shaky ceasefire.

A Fateful Decision

While the focus over recent days has been on Poroshenko’s decision to end the ceasefire and go on the offensive, Putin has continued to rely on diplomacy as his primary tool, especially with European officials fearful of the economic consequences of a full-scale confrontation between Russia and the West. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov has made considerable headway in getting at least Berlin and Paris to join Moscow in trying to restrain Washington in its apparent eagerness to stoke the fires in Ukraine.

Speaking on Russian TV on Saturday, Lavrov said, “Peace within the warring country [Ukraine] would be more likely if negotiations were left to Russia and Europe,” adding, “Our American colleagues … according to a lot of evidence, still favor pushing the Ukrainian leadership towards the path of confrontation.”

Keep reading more at the link:

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC which seeks to create one church instead of the current many denominations and create a theocracy. Sounds almost Satanic doesn't it.
Frequent guest of Alex Jones, he is an on the record truther and anti-semite.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 3:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Can you cite his antisemitism please?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 4:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think Alex Jones generally has antisemitic guests on his show, his wife is Jewish. I certainly can't find any instances of Ray McGovern being antisemitic, I can only find instances of him being labelled antisemitic. Nice try with the anti-Semite card, though.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Google "Frank Collin".

billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In relation to what? Ray or Alex? I'm not finding anything on either and I don't really like researching Nazis that much.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

what is a semite?

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 6:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 6:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For those following Ukraine, some *possible* good news — out of Florida ;-) — thanks to Russia (particularly Foreign Minister Lavrov) working with Germany and France:

'Joint Declaration by the Foreign Ministers of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany'


"The Foreign Ministers of Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine strongly reconfirm their commitment to sustainable peace and stability in Ukraine. In this context they stress the necessity of a sustainable ceasefire, to be agreed upon swiftly and to be observed by all concerned, thus putting an end to violence in Eastern Ukraine.

"Ministers urge that the Contact Group should resume no later than July 5th with the goal of reaching an unconditional and mutually agreed sustainable cease-fire. This cease-fire should be monitored by the OSCE…

"…Commentary: potentially, this could be huge. Of course, considering that the Ukie side has, so far, violated every single agreement it signed, this could also be just one more irrelevant document. But, if the junta came to the realization that its offensive against Novorussia is going absolutely nowhere from a military point of view and that its only result is to worsen the junta's image in the general public opinion (it was, after all, the junta which resumed hostilities), then this might indicate that Kiev is slowly coming to realize that its plan to either defeat the resistance or draw Russia in is failing.

"…As Juan [author of the COMBAT SITREPS at 'The Vineyard of the Saker'] always says, this will get worse before it gets better, but there are increasing signs that the junta is coming to the realization that the US imposed strategy has very little, if any, chance to work."


[ Ukraine war protests in Athens, Paris, Sydney, Rome ]

I reported on some of the early protests in Europe and New York at the 'Santa Barbara Progressive Coalition' here, on 1 June (includes three images and an 83-second video of Germans heckling Merkel):

'UKRAINE: awakening to USA / EU / NATO lies; Germans resist USA Nazis; Kucinich; ANSWER; VFP petition'

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 6:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Note Russo-phile Tieber's typical opener above: "— thanks to Russia (particularly Foreign Minister Lavrov)..." Note John fails to respond to my critique of the Russian religious-nationalist propaganda site Vineyard of the Saker. Nuff said.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 7:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wrenching this thread back to THE ACTUAL TOPIC OF THE VOICES PIECE, the way Putin has skilfully played Merkel/Hollande/EU and USA against each other reflect the writer's point that those June 6 D-Day celebrations masked deep disunity and gave openings not only to the nationalist dictator Putin, but further to signs of US disarray throughout the globe. PM Abe of Japan realizes this and has managed to change the Japanese Constitution and we will now see Japan facing up to China in ways reminiscent of the 1930s. This issue is hardly all about Ukraine, that's just what Russian propagandist Tieber wants you to believe.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DavyBrown wrote:
"...fails to respond to my critique of the Russian religious-nationalist propaganda site.."

I've not responded to what you consider to be "critiques" because I'm 100% confident that *all* readers with average or higher IQs clearly understand that they certainly are not critiques, and that, in order to critique something, one must refute the *substance.*

But these puerile potshots at authors, the particular website a piece happens to be posted on (even if it's a guest post), and assorted other ad hominems and rubbish are becoming so tiresome that I'll spoon-feed this concept to you:

(1) Click here:

(2) Linger, as long as required, at the first step, from the bottom, of the colorful pyramid. Then proceed to the second step, and repeat. Click here [ ] if you're still confused, and read as many times as needed until there is some understanding.

(3) Go back here:

(4) Work your way up the colorful pyramid, spending as much time on each step as needed for understanding.

JohnTieber (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tieber refs on July 3, at 6:56 pm, he refs and this site of his Yahoo group "Santa Barbara Progressive [sic] Coalition" and this Yahoo site, dated June 1, contains his "johntieber "statement:
"As a very positive side effect, Germany siding with Russia in resisting USA-funded Nazis has the potential to start the breakup of NATO which, with no legitimate function since the dissolution of the USSR in 1991..." blah blah
Back to the Nazis, eh John! I was just at Dachau here in Germany, and Tieber insults all those who fought the Nazis by invoking the so frequently in his pro-Russian agit-prop posts. I assume most reader on this thread know that Putin and Lavrov etc. constantly hurl their worst insult, from USSR days -- "Nazis" -- at any group that resists them. John echoes them.
Are there some neo-Nazis supporting the Kiev government, certainly; however there are a few all over Europe and NOT limited to Ukraine. An e.g. is a neo-Nazi was just elected to the Dortmund City Council here, and everyone is horrified and shocked by this.
Try some new lines, John. I trust most posters here can see through your game. Hey, if you agree with John he will email you via the Indy trying to get you to join his "Progressive Coalition".

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 3, 2014 at 8:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

for randomkook: semites and semitic refer both to "tribes"or "peoples" from SW Asia, but also various language groups. You could've tried
"Shem" (root word) was one of Noah's three sons. Both Arabs and Jews are "semites", but whenever the term "anti-Semitic" is used it refers to Jews. I also read in Torah that when Abraham slept with his wife Sarai's maidservant [read concubine], with her permission [!?] Hagar, that first-born son named Ishmael is the origin of the Arab tribes, whereas the second son of Abraham (with Sarai this time) named Isaac is the origin of all the Jewish tribes.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 4, 2014 at 12:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Tieber what substance? All you post is Putin's propaganda regurgitated by other armchair Fascists. If you're so "Progressive" how do you stand on women's rights?
Check this out for supposed "progressive" activism:

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
July 4, 2014 at 12:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks DB. Sounds like sibling rivalry.

My theory regarding Ukraine is that the West needs more hard assets to back the expanding debt so that the currencies don't collapse. Putin knows that the flow of money for energy will eventually change the worlds balance of power. Maybe the US and Europe should focus on burning less fossil fuels, for a change.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 4, 2014 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

for those obsessed with Ukraine, and vs. tedious poster/poseur John Tieber's pro-Russian baloney: "Igor Strelsky", a supposed east Ukrainian nationalist and military leader of the supposed "rebellion", has been unmasked as "IGOR GIRKIN", a well-known Russian working directly for the Russian military's foreign intelligence directorate. [International NY Times, July 7, 2014, p4 article by David M. Herszenhorn].
Hey John Tieber, are you that ignorant or a stooge for Putin? Why do you hate the USA and the EU so much?

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 7, 2014 at 3:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Looks like Tieber's favorite Strelsky [=Russian military intelligence officer GIRKIN] is part of the illegal separatists in Ukraine who SHOT DOWN THE MALAYSIAN PLANE (ref. Huffington post quoting intercept today):
"Ukraine's rebels control access to the crash site. Yesterday it was reported that separatist leader Igor Girkin had claimed credit for shooting down MH17, posting a boast on the VK social media site, which was later removed. It appears to have mistaken the plane for a Ukrainian army plane.
'The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez. It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in ‘our sky'. '"

“And here is the video proving another ‘bird’ falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people injured. There is also information about another plane shot,” he added.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 9:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's the ref. for the above post:
Our wonderful Russian "friends" have also apparently taken the black box to MOSCOW (proves their loyalties), and the Separatist leader Boro... has already moved bodies and contaminated the site... this acknowledges guilt.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do those war drums you're beating sound good over there, Davy??

Let's hold up a sec... forget about this Igor Girkin propaganda going around for a minute, which appears to be a forgery anyway:

Taking the black box does not acknowledge guilt, it acknowledges that Russia doesn't trust the international community, and for good reason.

Look at the way the neo-cons have been playing a full-court press for the last couple days now, who is really going to benefit from this plane being shot down?? This is a neocon wet dream... The neo-cons wanted this to happen so they can have another excuse for more war.

Incidentally, did you know that a plane carrying Putin that looked nearly identical to the Malaysian Airliner shot down was in the same exact location about 20 minutes apart? Some are speculating that this may have been a assassination attempt against Putin and they hit the wrong plane, or maybe the pro-Ukraine/NATO forces were expecting to hit Putin's plane and were purposely given slightly incorrect information which led them to shoot down the Malaysian plane...this would bring US troops to their aid assuming the blame gets assigned to Russia or pro-Russian forces.. Hard to speculate exactly how it played out at this time, but what I can speculate on is the motivation for doing this.....

Who had the biggest motivation?? Is there a politician or a former politician who is brave enough to come out and ask the question about who really benefits the most from this event and whether we should perhaps take caution before starting a war over this? Yes, in fact, there is...

"If it's blamed on Russia, the Ukrainian government would get the most benefit from this." -Ron Paul

This is an excellent interview and I hope it gives some people who are undecided out there some better perspective on the situation than what we've been getting from the mainstream media.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok I don't want to get too far away from this Malaysian plane incident, but this is sorta related.

Here is a picture of the wreckage of the Malaysian Airlines passenger plane that was shot down:

You can clearly see airplane parts, general plane wreckage and apparently they have identified bodies.

Here is a picture of the commercial passenger plane wreckage from Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA on 9/11/01:

Plane wreckage, engines, bodies?? Nope, nothing... All "absorbed" into the ground, goes the official explanation.. no evidence that a plane crashed there at all. First responder eye witnesses give the same account regarding no plane wreckage or anything that could conclusively prove that a plane crashed there was found at the site at Shanksville. Another piece of the unsolved puzzle of what happened on 9/11.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

nutty loon! However, did not want to sound "war drums" as you charged, and I detest the resurgent neo-cons possibly more than you, loon. Wasn't it the News-Suppress that recently led off with a huge article by DICK Cheney?

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Um, Davy, I have accused the neo-cons of supplying the ways and the means along with significant aid to the 9/11 terrorists and killing over 3,000 Americans so that they can begin wars in the Middle East, gain control of the region for the elite and obtain their spoils of war through their defense contracting companies....and you think you hate the neocons more than me?

I have accused the neo-cons of being Trotskyiite communists under the schooling of Machiavelli worshiping Leo Strauss who parade their beliefs in nationalism, American exceptionalism and Republicanism for the sole purpose of gaining power and control within government through subterfuge when their real goal has been global economic imperialism and increasing the power of the central government.

And you still think you hate the neocons more than I do?

You hate the neocons for what they pretend to represent... I hate the neocons for what they actually are.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I attempt to blunder the neo-con agenda at every turn, you support their theories and their propaganda.......and you think you hate the neocons more than I do?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Back to the topic at hand, it looks like it was a good thing that Russia found the blackbox and confiscated it because Ukraine confiscated the air traffic control recordings that contain conversations between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Malaysian airlines pilot. Did Ukrainian air traffic controllers tell the Malaysian airliner to stray off course into dangerous territory?

For context, here is the abnormal flight path the plane took:

"Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?"

The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.""

loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 12:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Against the background of the drums, I'd like to point out the ultimate in hypocrisy. Making an exception to the Ukraine sanctions to buy enriched uranium from Russia.

Don't draw any conclusions about what the US is doing in Ukraine.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

loony woony as others have called you, you're not worth debating, dude. Move to Russia, eh?
While I don't support "war drums" like the neo neo-cons, I also do remember the appeasement at Munich in 1938 and since Putin is a lying bully it does not work to let him taunt us as he has been doing in e. Ukraine. As the Voices writer states, "Putin toys with Obama" and with us, and fools like loon and Tieber buy his shtick. NO, not good that the black boxes go to Russia.
Who else has been shooting planes out of the sky over the illegal separatists area but the separatists?!
Wrong, random, we can study what's going on, avoid loon-atic's bizarre fantasies (he's still on about 911 and nutty conspiracies), and avoid outright war by fronting up Putin to some degree. We have NOT moved our heavy armor and military units east, we have NOT militarily threatened anyone, but we should pursue the increased sanctions and encourage the EU to do more. Remember, Putin lives "in another world" as Merkel openly states, and running from a mad dog (bully Putin) only encourages it to chase and bite. A reasoned, firm response is best. And will avoid open war, unless this is what Putin actually wants.
Could the cold destruction of the Malaysian airliner one day be compared to the assassination of the Arch-Duke in 1914? There are similarities...

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 18, 2014 at 11:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My point is that the sanctions are complete BS, as are the sanctions on Iran.

The US company USEC (recently privatized) is importing enriched uranium from Russian company Tenex. The Tenex deal is financed by French and German banks. USEC has friends in congress which why sanctions don't apply to them.

This exception makes the whole issue of sanctioning Iran over uranium enrichment also a boatload of BS. It goes to show you can't believe anything coming out of our government.

If Russia is to blame for downing the Malaysian plane, then Victoria Nuland, John Brennan and Joe Biden are just as much to blame for creating the Ukrainian conflict in the first place for the benefit of their gas deals.

In fact, given the behavior of the US in things so far, we shouldn't rule out some intentional ploy to cause the sacrifice of a commercial flight in order to attain a "Lusitania" event justifying a NATO response.

So don't draw any conclusions yet.

random_kook (anonymous profile)
July 19, 2014 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My post [July 18, 9:08 pm] with webref is now the citation verified by US Sec'y State John Kerry (see CNN wire 7/21 5a.m., below), and this actually supports contentions made in the original "Nothing New.." article that Putin isn't to be trusted and that, OBVIOUSLY, "he is toying with us". However, toying with British PM Cameron and the enraged Dutch (and the Australian PM) finally has applied pressure to Angela Merkel and the Germans to ENGAGE SOME REAL SANCTIONS. Further, Czarist Russia was a huge player in causing W.W. I, more than the Germans.
Odd how the Brits and the Dutch have a lot more balls than my man Obama? Here is Kerry from CNN:
“As the investigation on the ground continued, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said there’s no shortage of evidence that shows pro-Russian rebels shot down a Malaysian jet in Ukraine last week,
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 fell from the sky in Donetsk on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
There’s video of a launcher with one surface-to-air missile missing, imagery showing the firing and intercepted calls with rebels claiming credit for the strike, Kerry said.
‘We know from intercepts … that those are in fact the voices of separatists,’ he told CNN’s State of the Union on Sunday. ‘And now we have a video showing a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into Russia with at least one missing missile on it.’
Kerry accused Russia of backing the separatists.
‘This is the moment of truth for Russia. Russia is supporting these separatists. Russia is arming these separatists. Russia is training these separatists. And Russia has not yet done the things necessary in order to try to bring them under control,’ he [Kerry] said.”

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 21, 2014 at 7:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This article confirms the Voices writer's thesis:

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
July 28, 2014 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Harvard historian Niall Ferguson now writes about the startling similarities between W.W. I origins and American/EU timidity in facing Putin's nasty warlord behavior in the Financial Times 8/2-3/14, "In history's shadow",
Interestingly, Ferguson (who favored the Iraq War) views the pro-Russian terrorists' act of shooting down the Malaysian airliner MH17 as potentially similar to the Serbian terrorist G. Princip's terrorist assassination of the Austrian Archduke in July 1914. He disagrees with Greenspan's contention (far above on this thread) that Germany was the sole and major cause of W.W. I: "Even more complacent are those who insist on laying all the blame for 1914 on Germany." And of course today's Germany is itself complacent and many Germans tend to favor Russia over the USA today...
However, Greenspan was dead-on when he wrote against Putin-lovers Tieber and loonpt (see scores of their posts above): "The Russian propaganda machine is very persuasive. If the site is a .ru you can bet that the content is approved by the Kremlin. I am sorry to say that it is clear that Santa Barbara has its share of chumps who believe the Putin spin. "
Now we see Putin for the SOB he is, and the Russian war machine is directly threatening the legitimate Ukrainian government AND hindering humanitarian international work recovering remains at the MH17 site of carnage: this civilian airline was blown out of the sky murdering 295 people using a RUSSIAN Buk anti-aircraft missile. The black boxes are proving this.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
August 5, 2014 at 11:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Putin - Russia does not make anything as Obama so succinctly said, and hence has to resort to underhand tactics to get what Putin wants. Putin has KGB/Stazi mentality.

Obama is correct to keep out militarily, and of not supplying arms to factions here and there. The arms always reach the bad guys.

Unlike the WWII era, economic factors have a far larger clout today. Germany did not move more anti-Putin because of getting tougher; energy factors were always the priority, as with the rest of EU.

I am thankful that neither Bush nor McCain hold the reins in the US - there would be more wasteful tax dollars spent on conflicts. Keeping the lid on a boiling pot requires skill and patience, that too many may view as weakness. And any other WWII comparisons are somewhat trite - because there are a hundred more factors at play, and far more powerful technology. Sanctions/economic warfare is the better tool.

I think the US is stupid to sell arms to ME countries, but if they did not, Russia would. And I agree, RT is just a very biased propaganda arm of the Russian govt. Al Jazeera gets it right more often, but like all news outlets it has its own agenda.

The ME, Russia and the ex-Russian countries, have yet to mature in human relations. Life is cheap and they do not blink at killing, torturing and ethnic cleansing. I have often wondered why that is such a bad neighborhood - too much desert/tundra to form stable/mature communities, more/less Neanderthal heritage, too much stress, too many conflicting tribes, too much religion. Who knows, and how much longer strife will reduce that area to rubble.

tabatha (anonymous profile)
August 6, 2014 at 12:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

excellent points, tabatha, and it's good to watch Obama verbally slap Putin around, Russia's just a regional power and they don't manufacture anything but second-class armaments. Yet the key comparisons here by Ferguson and the Voices author are to World War I, not II.
In WW II obviously fascist Germany was the aggressor, abetted by Italy, but too many make "Germany" the essential bad guy in W.W.I. Too some extent these are Zionists who "will never forget" -- but that is about the Holocaust (a vital issue!), but not as much about causation. Heck, the French (Dreyfuss Affair) and others were just as anti-Semitic before W.W. I as the Germans.
The W.W. I causation included crazed Russian intrigues and EXPANSIONIST SUPPORT OF TERRORISTS in the Balkans (Serbia; Princip was a Serbian nationalist) as well as Kaiser Bill's stupid "blank check" to Austria-Hungary... as well as imperialism and nationalism by UK, France, and others... which conspired to make W.W. I. The similarities to today's weakness of the West -- 'nothing new in the West' -- are to 1890 - 1914 when the Great Powers allowed a nationalistic situation ON RUSSIA'S BORDERS blow up into the worst war of all time (up to that time).
People just want to blame a single bad action -- Wilhelmine Germany -- for W.W. I, but Russia's role was equally heavy. Putin's support of RUSSIAN separatists in the Donetsk region, with heavy strains of Russian Orthodox Church religio/nationalism, threaten in the same way.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
August 6, 2014 at 5:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"I have often wondered why that is such a bad neighborhood"

Our oil is under their sand, that's why..

loonpt (anonymous profile)
August 6, 2014 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dmitry said he believes that Ukraine needs "a strong dictator to come to power who could shed plenty of blood but unite the nation in the process".

random_kook (anonymous profile)
September 10, 2014 at 7:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That idea's been around...Ukraine needs a Marshal Tito, a Saddam Hussein, another Assad-type to pacify all the factions.
Two competing narratives collide in Ukraine: the Holomodor when Stalin and the Russians starved 3,000,000 Ukrainians to death (ca. 1933); but then the Nazi fascist genocide of Jews (and others!) caught in these horrendous "bloodlands" in the early 1940s. Einsatzgruppen.
But now the eastern Ukrainians speaking Russian vividly recall W.W. II and they hate all "fascists", but because of this Holomodor some western Ukrainians assisted the Wehrmacht and fought Stalin's Russian army. THESE are the reasons the separatists hurl "fascist' charges at the Kiev and western Ukrainians.
Do they really need a violent, dictatorial, savage, and ORDER-MAKING warlord to rule then, to unite them?? Putin's ready to do it.

DavyBrown (anonymous profile)
September 10, 2014 at 7:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TIto held Yugoslavia together.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
September 11, 2014 at 1:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To punctuate what Davy Brown said, I believe the figure was about 6 million dead, and for many years it was thought the Nazis had killed them, but was Davy points out, it was Uncle Joe to the slaughter.

I can't image the nightmare of being caught between the Killing Machines of Hitler and Stalin.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
September 11, 2014 at 2 a.m. (Suggest removal)

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