Arizona’s proof of citizenship law…

We need the same immigration reform here 50% 105 votes
There’s nothing more Nazi than saying "Show me your papers" 49% 103 votes
208 total votes


Independent Discussion Guidelines

Might as well call it the Legalized Racial Profiling law.

emkman (anonymous profile)
April 29, 2010 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lev 19:33-4
When an alien lives with you in your land, you shall not wrong him. The alien who lives with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[Not valid in Arizona.]

pkoplin (anonymous profile)
April 29, 2010 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If space aliens ever land in Arizona, they better have their papers in order!

(the event would likely spark inter-galactic war given how Arizonan's love to pack their pistols in public)

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
April 29, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Only 2 choices to pick from, 1 draconian, 1 pc wordspeak, make more choices then put it out there. Can't vote on it as it stands :) henry

hank (anonymous profile)
April 29, 2010 at 5:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Henry's right you (fill in the blank...) happy May Day!!!Spread the hate, call the dead rancher a Nazi for Christ's sake!

BoycottBoy (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

emkman (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a comedian on Dennis Miller's show noted, using the word Nazi is ridiculous. It's not like the Jews were scaling double barb-wire fences to get INTO Germany! What an idiotic thing to ask... We ARE profiling. CRIMINALS. And that means illegal aliens and the U.S. SCUMBAGS who employ (and thus attract) them. Fair is fair!

maximum (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 8:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(part one of two)
Just as I voted against Proposition 187 (and still oppose it) I'm opposed to what is being done in Arizon because I believe it will lead to racial profiling. I also think it violates the spirit of freedom upon which this country was founded. (In the context of the role of government) Having said that, the social activists need to pull their collective head out of the sand.

When a battered woman snaps and kills her abusive husband, people will raise the "Burning Bed" defense. (Named after the movie with the same name where a battered wife kills her husband) When an abused kid becomes a criminal, people will say that we need to take it into account when sentencing that person for the crime they've committed. What is interesting is that people on the political Left are generally the ones to argue such mitigating circumstances, and I certainly agree with them to a point, these same people fail to see how it applies in the case of what is happening in Arizona.

Is racism behind what is happening in Arizona and what is sprouting in other states?... certainly in part, but what Al Sharpton, the A.C.L.U., the various Latino groups, the academic world and much of the media either fail to see or simply sweep under the rug is WHY this ugly thing has come to pass. In short: people have had enough, and now these people are snapping out of frustration.

When you have a populace which consistently hears how they should feel guilty about what someone did long ago to someone's ancestors, or has a guilt trip laid upon it for current injustices, the stage is set for animosity. Add to that the fact that these same people watch helplessly as their schools and streets turn into gang turf/war zones where they are terrified for their safety as well as the safety of their loved ones. There is the traffic, overcrowding of schools (where education increasingly takes a back seat to trying to keep the "at-risk" kids from joining gangs) overcrowded emergency rooms where waiting times increase as doctors and nurses are increasingly stressed out due to the sheer load of patients, and watching as the way of life that America created—and which has made America the envy of the world-- gives way to the Third World way of life. While certainly there are other factors which do not involve the open border which are negatively affecting the U.S., The common cause of the issue at hand is the tacit collaboration of the U.S. and Mexican governments, business interests, and Fifth Column agitators in the U.S. whose lives revolve around trying to tear down what they perceive as a racist capitalist system.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(part two of two)

Whenever one voices a desire to preserve the positive aspects of American life, they are branded as being racist, while militant La Raza activists brag how they are going to take over and how we all need to "get used to it" while politicians turn a blind eye. If your kid gets beat up at school by gang members, good luck, you're on your own whether your kid is beat up for being the wrong color, or because your kid chooses to do well in school and is labeled a sellout to his/her culture. If you accidentally look at someone the wrong way, you take your life in your hands. I could go on and on about what is happening but no matter how much evidence is presented, the P.C. powers-that-be will simply dismiss it while Right-Wing business interests and politicians hide behind their wealth and power which increases in part due to exploitation of cheap immigrant labor and violation of laws already in place.

At the core of this is the political correctness which doesn't dare point out that more and more of the criminal side of Mexican/Central culture is coming into the U.S. I have a friend in the Sheriff's department who tells me that many of the people in the jail are in the country illegally and from what I've read and heard the percentage of illegal aliens in U.S. prisons far exceeds their percentile numbers of residency.

Since the U.S. government has ripped the door of the hinges of our southern border, the Mexican government knows it has no incentive to address the causes of the poverty there. Also, the people there have no incentive to ask themselves why poverty is such a problem so when they come into the U.S., this—combined with the reinforcement of politically correct thought and fear of being a “vendepatrias” (sellout, or literally (seller of the Fatherland)—ensures the collective self-examination necessary to improve their situation. (To wit: the only reason the U.S. advanced in the area of civil rights was self-examination by the privileged class) In short, it's a vicious cycle of poverty in Mexico/Central America, unlimited immigration which ignores the impact of overpopulation,(curiously, the political element which is pro-Planned Parenthood remains silent on this issue) lack of assimilation supported by the U.S. government providing everything in Spanish, and people in this country who fail to see the "throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater" mentality.

Yes folks, the Silent Majority have been pushed over the edge. These people simply want to live in a functional, safe society and not the Third World nightmare from which (irony noted) the immigrants themselves are trying to escape. Having said that, unless those who are wont to label anyone who doesn’t buy into their reflexive P.C. agenda as being racist are willing to realize this and address those justified concerns, we can only look forward to more racial polarity which is something nobody in their right mind would want.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"ensures the collective self-examination necessary to improve their situation will not happen"/

billclausen (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"There’s nothing more Nazi than saying "Show me your papers"

Yes there is: rounding people up, putting them in boxcars for at least several days without food, water, or anywhere to relieve themselves, driving the tormented survivors off the train when it arrives at the concentration camp into a room, (giving them water only to quell the panic) stripping them naked, and then gassing/shooting/sometimes burning them to death, then subjecting the people who are not selected to die right away to an agonizing ordeal of being deprived of food, sleep, protection from the cold, or beatings, rape, "medical experiments", watching your loved ones being subjected to these same horrors, and torture until they finally either die or cannot work any longer and are executed in any of the ways described above or in worse ways.

As I said before: I am against this proof of citizenship law, but your comparison to The Holocaust is inappropriate. If you feel so strongly about this, find a holocaust survivor and make the comparison to them.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
April 30, 2010 at 10:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not sure BoycottBoy deserves the heat he's getting here for his brief comment.

Nazi racist thought and actions were not limited to their extreme treatment of the Jews and the Holocaust:

So in the less extreme cases of Nazi racist actions (e.g. deportation) I think there are some grounds for comparison, if not literally, at least thematically.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 2:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Did you know that Jose Vasconelos, Mexican Secretary of Education who coined the phrase "La Raza" was a Nazi sympathizer? He was editor of the pro-Nazi magazine "Timon", which was shut down by the Mexican government in 1940 under U.S. pressure. Vasconcelos was quite the apologist for Hitler using the Versailles treaty as an excuse for genocide.

"Hitler representa, en suma, una idea, la idea
alemana, tantas veces humillada antaño por el militarismo de los franceses
y por la perfidia de los ingleses."

Also EastBeach, the Jews who were subject to the Nuremberg Laws were _German Citizens_, not illegal immigrants. By 1938, they were frantically trying to get visas for any nation that would take them, including Mexico, but Mexico had shut its doors to refugees.

@BillClausen -- good summary of the co-enabling dysfunction of current immigration from Mexico and lack of assimilation. But the only way to stop the bleeding is to actually enforce immigration law, including targeted deportation to discourage more illegal entrants.

Finally, why does the Independent consign this very important discussion to the comments section, while giving PUEBLO space for its propaganda, with no response from the pro-enforcment side in the news section?

revisionist (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Forgot to give the title of the paper -- I'd say "conveniently Olvidado" by Latino activists.

"Ese olvidado nazi mexicano de nombre José Vasconcelos"

revisionist (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Clearly it is inappropriate to quote the nazi equation. The Nazi gestapo systematically invaded the homes of legal and innocent citizens, cruelly beating and forcibly dragging them out; they stole and burned their possessions, and sent thousands of innocent men women and children to their deaths in prisons and concentration camps. The problem here is when the word "Illegal" is not used in front of the the word "immigration". No one is against immigrants. For centuries the strength of this country has been it's immigrants. I came here 50 years ago clutching my chest x-rays to prove I was TB free, and papers to prove my legal status. I reported each year and had my green card inspected until,urged by my family, I decided to take out American citizenship. There must be thousands like me who do not understand why the authorities in this country have turned a blind eye on this huge proportion of people, entering and living here illegally.

samuel (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Righteous! to see reason and intelligence among the commenters, Bill Clausen, revisionist, et al. AGREE - why is this very important topic relegated to an obscure section? It is impossible to move in certain circles in this town without running into those who are either 1) guilt-tripping you for being successful and resenting giving away upwards of 65% of your income to the useless idiots running our government, or 2) speaking out on issues of enforcing immigration laws because you are a racist and insensitive to "social justice." Social justice is not a friend's kid getting beat up by gang bangers because he's white. Social justice is not seeing your hometown, your STATE become a third world country. I've said it before but I'll say it again, some of the most intelligent writing about this subject matter is found in MEXIFORNIA-a State of Becoming- by Victor Davis Hanson. Read that book, you "Nazi" know-it-alls, then you'll get how illegal immigration hurts ALL immigrants, from my grandfather (and his progeny) to the Mexican couple currently in line (legally) waiting to become a U.S. citizens. Knock off the divisive talk--and help solve the problem.

maximum (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We recently added comments to the Polls to encourage responses and commentary beyond the limited choices the Polls allow; so thinking any relegation or consignment of this (or any) topic is wrong.

We also appreciate your comments on the events, listings, and stories we run online.

-- Web Admin.

webadmin (webadmin)
May 1, 2010 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Some basic Google research on State Senator Russell Pearce, the "owner" of this bill as well as other similar bills, might shed some light. While there, check out the AZ taxpayer's payout of $43 million and counting in response to actions of Arpiao's goons to people unfortunate in crossing their path. Hate is alive and well in Maricopa County, AZ

spide1 (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

East Beach: One can neither be a little bit pregnant, nor "a tad bit nazi".

samuel (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Indeed. No argument there Samuel. I think the Nazi tangent is a distraction.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 7:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

God this is getting so tiresome. As for someone who travels back and forth to Arizona I can tell you that this is all theatre. I'm personally tired of the running AK-47 gun battles going on up and down I-10, the hundreds of drop houses with good people being held, naked, for ransom. The sieve that is our border with these people literally destroying some of the most beautiful countryside with garbage and feces. The idiots climbing over my walls, in the middle of the night, trying to rob me...until they feel salt ripping them in the ass (twice in the past two years). A Mossberg has a beautiful spread at 30 feet. The endless speeches from ignorant Californians and Easterners who have no clue. Calling for absurd “boycotts”.

Like the fools calling to boycott Arizona Tea when it is made in New York.

The fact is that 70% of Arizonans - and that includes Arizona Hispanics and Democrats, and a MAJORITY of Americans, have had enough.

It brings to mind the recent story of four Mexican idiots walking into a local 7-11 demanding money - in Spanish. LoL. After the smoke had cleared and the surviving illegal was being loaded into an ambulance he was overheard telling the EMT that they had forgotten that this was Arizona and NOT California. Three criminals dead and one paralyzed. All nailed by one CCW patron of the store. The only problem was that one survived. Too bad. You see, in Arizona, gun carrying residents are not considered criminals. Arizonans just want to defend themselves. In California the criminals carry and the citizens are sheep to the slaughter.

Weren’t these MASSIVE demonstrations amazing…wow, what a turnout! Millions…just millions. All wearing mass produced t-shirts and holding mass produced signs. But it was just a spontaneous demonstration…right?

Here is a real bubble buster. For those who are ignorant of the law, you may not realize that Arizona's so called new law is and has been the law of the United States for a long time. For you illegals take note; It has ALWAYS been AGAINST the LAW to be in the United States ILLEGALLY and that includes ALL 50 STATES. If you are not a citizen, you are required to have “papers” declaring your status. If you want to live in the United States it's not that hard, just do it the right way!! You will be welcome. But thumb your nose at our laws, you should feel the full force of those laws, and no leniency should be given. So quit whining and do what is right.

In hindsight what Gov. Brewer needs to do is hold a press conference and highlight all the benefits available to illegals in California. She can then offer travel vouchers to San Francisco and L.A. Take them…they‘re yours. Daniel Petry

jcrdan (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 10:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jcrjordon. Strong dialogue clearly revealing the feelings of someone who has just about had enough. Words spoken with truth though: "It has ALWAYS been AGAINST the LAW to be in the United States ILLEGALLY and that includes ALL 50 STATES. "

samuel (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What about the couple in the mountains behind SB who ran into some pot growers while camping and were almost killed? What ever happened to that story? I'm going to take a wild guess we were talking about Mexican nationals... so now we have to "carry" when we backpack? Enough!!!!

maximum (anonymous profile)
May 1, 2010 at 11:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We recently added comments to the Polls to encourage responses and commentary beyond the limited choices the Polls allow; so thinking any relegation or consignment of this (or any) topic is wrong.

We also appreciate your comments on the events, listings, and stories we run online.

-- Web Admin.
Nonetheless, you still brand anyone who disagrees with you on this subject as a Nazi by the limited choices you give them.

You could have said "This law is wrong" or "This law is wrong, but I understand the frustration of those who support it".

billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 6, 2010 at 5:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As was implied in the section you quoted, you may expand on the limited choices offered in the comment section; and now you've done so, billclausen,

-- Web Admin

webadmin (webadmin)
May 6, 2010 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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