Santa Maria’s proposed ICE facility will …

be a ruse to deport illegal migrants and end up separating families. 20% 26 votes
ensure that illegal immigrant felons leave the country. 55% 71 votes
hurt what trust exists between immigrants and law enforcement. 14% 18 votes
serve as a barrier between illegal felons and homegrown criminals. 10% 13 votes
128 total votes


Independent Discussion Guidelines

Let's be clear. The very foundation that holds our country and society together is at threat here. The respect for the rule of law.

Illegal immigrants have chosen to ignore the laws they "feel" are not fair. They have chosen to break the laws that allow for them to legally immigrate and work in the USA. They are criminals and morally bankrupt individuals who have put their own financial welfare ahead of everyone else...

They do not deserve the respect or the protection of the US and its citizens because they DO NOT RESPECT the US and its citizens.

They chose to break the law for financial gain. To cheat the system and countless others who follow the rules. And as such they deserve nothing but the full wrath of the very laws and people they chose to ignore. Without prejudice.

These people are cheaters who do not deserve any respect or regard. Go home, follow the rules and you will be welcomed with open arms.

iamsomeguyinsb (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, clearly the founding fathers were respecting "the rule of law" when they started the revolution.

Num1UofAn (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Government has been responsible for murdering more people than any other single cause or entity in history. To believe in the "rule of law" is like worshiping Hitler.

We need to return to more of a "Golden Rule" policy where you treat others as you would want to be treated rather than worshiping the state which is most often highly immoral.

The fact is that there are already more Mexicans returning to Mexico than are coming here because our economy sucks.. and our economy does not suck because of immigrants, immigrants by nature actually improve economic activity and increase the standard of living.

Building an ICE facility here is like building an outdoor ice skating rink in Hawaii. It doesn't make any sense.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon, too bad you can't move to a country where everyone creates their own laws and only have to live by the laws that they agree with.

Botany (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Num1UofAn - what the heck does your comment mean? Its nonsensical.

LoonPT - your point makes no sense either... not only is the influx of 20m illegals a determent to our society, its an affront to our laws and our way of life. The only people who defend it are in fact, illegals and/or relatives of illegals or morons...

Legal immigrants despise these cheaters and Americans offer their empathy by mostly accepting them... neither of which changes the underlying fact that these people willingly broke the law solely for their own financial benefit. A true affront the the warm welcome we provide to legal immigrants the world over who are under duress and need asylum for virtuous reasons... you know Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty??? But those days are over. The inn is full.

I sure do hope they all return south. But the fact is that we let 20+ million people come in and those 20 million had 40 million babies... and now we have destroyed our labor pool, decimated our education system, overrun our social programs and sent the message that our laws are not necessary if you dont feel that they apply to you...

With people like you in our community, its no wonder our schools are horrible, our prisons filled with the immigrants and their children and our streets littered with the leftovers of insipid and moronic gangs...

iamsomeguyinsb (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Botany, the only laws should be against stealing someone's property, physically hurting somebody or committing fraud. This is not a complicated concept, we all learned those rules in pre-school. Yet we let the government steal people's property, physically assault non-violent people and governments are the biggest perpetrator of fraud and violence on the planet. It doesn't take very much critical thinking to see my point of view.

Here is a comparison of "When the government does it" vs. "When everybody else does it"

iamsomeguy, your comment doesn't make any sense. You said that 20m illegals are a detriment to our society but you give no evidence to back that claim up. Any damages illegals are causing is through the entitlement system which they had nothing to do with creating. However it turns out that illegals pay more in taxes than they receive in government services. That doesn't mean legal citizens don't pay a disproportionate amount for wars of aggression, a vast police state and regulatory agencies, but we can't exactly blame those on newcomers to our country.

Some of my best neighbors in this town have been Mexican, legal or not, so I have no idea what you are talking about as far as illegals ruining our society, maybe you should lay off the Conservative Talk Show circuit on your radio.

Your comment about the "Inn being full" is very telling of your nature. You probably would have said that to Jesus' mother herself.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 1:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You're such a cliche Loon, everything you just painted in your attempt to defend your position reeks of intellectual depravity. Keep trying, but you should know that no matter how hard you try, you'll never overcome your lack of raw intellect. Whether its your conspiracy theories or your self proclaimed love for communism, you are an interesting man just not a very bright one...

I am a registered Democrat who mostly votes on the left. I am very liberal when it comes to social issues but as a business owner and an entrepreneur, this issue riles me as these people are living under false pretenses and are by their very nature, cheaters. And cheaters should never, ever be rewarded. Its not my duty to cite the plethora of statistics which contradict your position... you should find those on your own time.

Good luck with that Utopian society! I am sure there are a few islands in the So Pacific you and your friends could buy... but that would require money, and money only exists with the rule of law to uphold its value... Something of which you dont feel a need to respect or regard.

iamsomeguyinsb (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 2 p.m. (Suggest removal)

lol, that shows how smart you are, I'm an anarchist not a communist. They are like, literally, the opposite..

What was that about intellect?

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 2:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh and I'm registered Republican. But I'm glad you are registered Democrat, you are definitely in the right party. Did you know that Obama has deported more illegals in the last 3 years than Bush did in all of his 8 years? That has also lead to a huge increase in foster children because many of the deported individuals are parents. Get a conscience.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Keep trying Loon. You dont even know what you are!

But we do...

iamsomeguyinsb (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well I'm not ACTUALLY an aquatic bird as my monicker implies. I will accept the labels of libertarian, minarchist, anarchist or more specifically anarcho-capitalist. A truly libertarian government which simply protects the rights and property of its citizens is in theory just as good as an anarcho-capitalist society where individuals create voluntary organizations and institutions to protect each others' rights and property.

But I do operate under a very basic premise that is to leave other people alone and not force my ideas, beliefs, pollution or monetary schemes on them under the threat of violence like the mafia, or the government does. I believe that is immoral. And pretty much everything you believe, by voting Democrat, flies in the face of individual liberty and freedom. It's immoral and ultimately it is evil.

I am registered Republican not because I vote for Republicans, most Republicans are complete tyrants. I usually just vote "No" on things and then write-in Ron Paul for President every 4 years. Sometimes I'll even vote for a progressive in a local election because I believe some of them are far less tyrannical than the Republican opposition in some important ways. Our two party system has near infinite amounts of problems from an intellectual standpoint.. but IN THEORY Republicans are supposed to stand for less government which is why many libertarians and anarchists may identify more so with the Republican Party as a political vehicle.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon, it takes much more than you think to see your own point of view. What about adults having consensual sex with children ( or teenagers)? What about a prostitute with AIDS continuing to ply her trade? What about a pregnant woman committing suicide? What about a heroin dealer selling drugs to kids? Do you think that your ideas on these subjects are going to be the same as someone else"s. These are all consensual acts. You are making everything simplistic when it isn't. Life is full of shades of gray. And you think that everyone that thinks as you do will always have the same opinion on these subjects. Well guess what? Life is complicated. The police need laws and guidelines to guide them. They can't all see the world as black and white as you do, otherwise the police will all enforce the law according to their own set of morals. Don't you think that we need our laws spelled out completely? Otherwise, how will people know if they are breaking them or not, and how will the police know how to enforce them?

Botany (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 3:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon I suspect we are closer than you think... While I register Dem I am not partisan. In fact, unlike you I universally despise both parties but the GOP is fueled by hateful ignorance and woeful misguidance. Their hypocrisy far outweighs that of the Democratic party and since one needs to align with a party that is closer to their core belief, I choose the left. In fact, I am something called a Liberaltarian. A person who believes that the govt is there for the safety and well being of its citizens but it has no place in their daily lives, their homes, their religion- or lack there of, or their business (other than to keep the peace and the playing field level). And as such I believe in universal health care, education, public safety and defense. But not much more... especially not the bloated bureaucracy we have at all levels of Govt.

I suspect that you have some soul searching still to do in order to find your true political party and philosophy... for many things you say contradict yourself. That's OK, its the journey that's important not the declaration. I personally prefer a loud voice to a meek one so I applaud you and the voicing of your opinions, but I dont agree with very many of them.

iamsomeguyinsb (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loon religion has caused far more wars and deaths than any government. While I agree with you that government is far too big in this country I do believe illegal immigration needs to be addressed.

MSSB (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Botany, if you think about it, a lot of the situations you are outlining that you wish me to deal with would not even be issues in a free society.

Adults having sex with kids - a child can't consent to doing something that they can't physically perform or mentally understand. It is pretty clear that a child can't consent to having sex and having sex with a child is rape. I guess if you want to tie it to my 3 laws of stealing, injury and fraud then convincing a child to have sex would be considered "fraud" and the result a violent act of abuse against the child.

"What about a prostitute with AIDS continuing to ply her trade?" - In a free society you wouldn't pickup hookers on the street, you would be able to go somewhere that has a clean and safe environment where the women are tested. Otherwise you take your chances. With freedom comes responsibility.

"What about a pregnant woman committing suicide?" - This is a ridiculous question. First of all, why not just get an abortion and then commit suicide? Of course people have the freedom to kill themselves, what is the alternative? You put them in prison? You would also be free to try and prevent a person from killing themselves, afterall, I'm not "hurting" them by preventing them from killing themselves so it would not be illegal to do what you have in your power to prevent someone or a loved one from committing suicide.

"What about a heroin dealer selling drugs to kids?" - There is no such thing as a "heroin dealer" in a free society, you would most likely buy drugs at a store that sells drugs. If a store starts selling heroin to kids, then you use your first amendment speech to inform everybody and you get everybody to boycott their store, they go out of business and would probably have to move to a new town or take up a new trade. Now, let's say an unscrupulous person comes into your town and starts selling heroin to kids. The first barrier would be a good education to make sure that your kids don't talk to strangers and don't take strange substances offered to them. If that barrier gets passed, then what do you do in a free society? You use free speech to inform everybody of this unscrupulous person and their activities - you can hire private security to keep them off school grounds and watch your kids as they make their way home from school or bus stops - you can warn the kids of this specific person. Why is this person selling drugs to kids? Are they also selling drugs to adults? Probably not, if the adults can buy them in the store. I don't know how a person would make a living selling drugs to young kids. Now, if by kids you mean older teenagers, they actually have better access to illegal drugs today than they do to alcohol and they have better access to drugs than adults because of the fact that drugs are illegal!!! Once you realize that kids have better access to drugs because of the fact they are illegal, your argument really goes down hill.

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Loon religion has caused far more wars and deaths than any government."

Until you realize that Government is a religion..

But actually your statement has some real flaws. The Chinese government killed hundreds of millions of people in the name of communism. Also, governments go to war, not religions. Religion is a tool that government uses to compel the population to support the wars that it starts, it is not the actual reason for war. Sort of like how weapons of mass destruction was the reason our country was led to invade Iraq when it had nothing to do with that. It had to do with war profits and furthering banker control over the region. Therefore we can see that getting rid of religion or weapons of mass destruction won't stop wars, they will just find another excuse.

So why do governments go to war? If you do enough research on the topic, you will find that most if not all wars are funded by banks. If you do more research, you will find that the same banking families fund both sides of the wars. They even decide who wins when they stop loaning money to the country they have decided will lose the war. Both countries go into debt and must repay their war debts and so the banks make a lot of money. You see, for centuries banks have teamed up with various monarchies and government officials to pull the ultimate scam and counterfeit money into existence and then charge the population interest. In fact, that is precisely what our Federal Reserve Bank does today. You will also find that these big banking families happen to own a lot of the industries that manufacture war products, or what we like to call the "military industrial complex". So there are tons of profits to be made by specific individuals in going to war, despite the overt destruction and despair that comes in its wake.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson

loonpt (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So when does child sex become a crime? 17 years, 364 days is a crime, but 18 years is OK? What about the age of the adult? 18 years and 1 day having sex with the 17 year old would be the same as a 53 year old having sex with the 17 year old? Life is not black and white and you can never make it so.

Botany (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 5:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loonpt is--if anything--a libertarian. Libertarianism and Communism are as far apart as belief in God and atheism.

Why anyone would think Loonpt is a Communist is beyond me.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"A Communistic young woman who worships Fred Astaire."

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
March 6, 2014 at 9:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My point was simply that respect for the law is clearly not an historically fundamental principle that holds our country and society together. Any honest analysis of our history suggests something very different.

Num1UofAn (anonymous profile)
March 9, 2014 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think the Indy got the result they were hoping for in this poll. They referred to people in this country illegally in four different ways:

"Illegal Migrants"

"Illegal Immigrant Felons"


"Illegal Felons"

The Indy seemed to change the description of the people involved depending on the answer they wished to elicit.

Botany (anonymous profile)
March 10, 2014 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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