Independent Discussion Guidelines
This is another poorly worded poll question from the Indy, I think they enjoy doing that on purpose sometimes, though.
Vaccine Controversy Shows Why We Need Markets, Not Mandateshttp://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archi...
Parents have the right to send their kids to schools that require vaccinations, and I would imagine that well over 90% of parents would choose to send their kids to schools that require at least some vaccinations. That doesn't mean the government should require every child to get every vaccine that exists.
The vaccine industry makes billions of dollars every year, and the more vaccines are mandated the more money they can make by coercing people to get vaccines that may not be incredibly safe and which protect from diseases that may not be incredibly dangerous. This happened with the swine flu in the 1970s and vaccines seem to be getting more dangerous and less effective as time goes by.
Vaccines are becoming more dangerous and less effective over time mostly due to government regulation of the vaccine industry. When a vaccine is introduced, for example the measles vaccine, the FDA required that the vaccine be 95% effective. To do that, they ran a test where they would make some type of measurement of a certain type of antibody that is being produced, and if the vaccine caused a high enough concentration then then they were able to show the vaccine is 95% effective and they could use this as a baseline test to run to ensure the vaccine continued to be effective.
Eventually what happens is the vaccine becomes less effective over time as the virus(es) and humans naturally evolve and so the vaccine companies had to figure out a way to maintain the 95% effective rate. One way they found they could do this was by introducing toxic chemicals into the vaccines that can cause brain damage in rare instances. The other way they were able to keep the 95% effective rate was through research fraud. The CDC and the vaccine companies have been found to be guilty of research fraud because if the vaccine doesn't test at 95% effective rate the vaccine company can lose their license to produce the vaccine, thus losing tens of millions or more in profits.
Get the government OUT of vaccines - let the industry produce vaccines and let people choose which vaccines to get. Independent studies can be done to ensure efficacy, government studies can still be done for some time as a guideline to help the public make their own choice.
This would improve the quality of the vaccines and people who complain about the dangers of vaccines would be more likely to get them once they prove to be safe.
loonpt (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Get the government INTO vaccinations and mandate them, at least the basic mmr and dpt. You're more loony that usual, with no point.
DrDan (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
That's your problem DrDan, you didn't even bother to try and understand the point I was making and you have no desire to evolve in your thinking on the subject.
I linked to an article written by a doctor who generally supports vaccines, particularly the ones you mentioned, but does not support mandating them. He does support the right of private businesses and property owners to not allow or associate with people who haven't been vaccinated against certain diseases. However, we both thoroughly explained why mandating vaccines is dangerous business and causes massive corruption within the vaccine industry and can hurt people.
I also explained WHY vaccines are becoming more dangerous and less effective - one could probably prove that most vaccines provide more benefit than the dangers associated, but you won't admit that there has been research fraud to cover up those dangers, more research fraud to make it look like the vaccines are more effective today than they actually are and more dangerous chemicals are put into the vaccines because of government regulation. This is not a 'theory' of any sort, it has all been put out into the open by various whistle blowers who have worked directly in government vaccine research.
If we all ignored what I'm saying and listened to DrDan, the medical tyranny that would follow, mandating all sorts of new vaccines that provide little benefit and can be highly dangerous could be foisted on the public by the government simply for the profit of vaccine manufacturers. You could see people being tied up to hospital beds and forced to take vaccines, or paying fines or going to jail for not getting a vaccine. If you can't see how incredibly dangerous that whole concept is, then you are very naive and have learned very little from your history lessons. I mean, why not tell people what to eat? What vitamins to take? Then the food industry and the vitamin industry can go lobby the politicians to make people eat their food and take their vitamins.. What part of government corruption don't you understand? It's all around us, it is why people in this country in particular are so unhealthy today. It is why we are constantly at war. It is why our education system continues to get worse and worse. Wake up before it's too late.
loonpt (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
People overwhelmingly trust the government & pharmaceutical industry to inject their children with lord knows what yet we can't label gmo foods. Amnesia is not funny at all. Huh?
spacey (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah Loon, I hate the soda police just as much as you, but the difference is that it's only your kid at risk if you don't monitor his/her diet. It's everyone else's kid that's at risk if the parents don't immunize their kids. Big difference. And again, nobody's forcing parents, just making vaccination a requirement to attend public school. Please acknowledge the difference in your next rant.
Botany (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
With Loon its always the readers fault. Silly Loon, he has yet to realize the once constant in all his life's confusion is he...
We dont though, we dont...
Sam_Tababa (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thats rich coming from sam tababazhole
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Poor Ken, neither funny nor talented nor actively engaged in any real pursuit. Instead he spends his days sitting in a coffee shop pretending to be interesting while creeping out all the young girls.
Must suck getting old in SB watching all the people with careers, success and money walk on by...
Sam_Tababa (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, that's typical Ken. Engaging in petty name-calling instead of intelligent dialogue. He'd rather call me a Nazi than engage in a discussion of the issues.
Botany (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shall we assume only the children whose parents refused vaccinations are the ones who will be at risk, since those children previously vaccinated will be protected?
Worry more about illegals bringing in diseases long thought to be eliminated in this country, like measles. Classic part of prior waves of legal immigration was passing the dreaded medical exams, before they could even leave Ellis island.
Illegal immigration fails at all levels. There is no excuse for it to continue. We can't afford it, and it violates even the most basic US public health protections.
JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam: Your arrogance is only matched by your ignorance.@Botany, sorry if the truth hurts. You know for the longest time we thought you were a 90yo woman from the midwest? I discussed the issues and you felt the need to quash what I said. Good riddance to you both.
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
lighten up boys and girls...I for one, while disagreeing slightly more often than not with Ken, rather like most of his comments.
nomoresanity (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Volok makes it easy to shoot fish in a barrel. No, dolphin not you.
JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jarvis, Mexico and most of Latin America has extremely high rates of immunizations. Somewhere in the 99 percentile. They have socialized medicine remember which with all its faults is very good for early childhood diseases.
The issue is more with neo-hippies and their bandwagon dogma. These morons read a headline and jump up onto their favorite soap box. We have a couple of those types in this thread (Ken is one, Loon another) and a whole lot of them walking among us. They're rather easy to spot. They are the vegans who dont eat gluten yet spread countless chemicals on their bodies daily to avoid looking old. You can see them shopping at TJ's, the Farmers Market of getting their tea after their morning yoga class
Sam_Tababa (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
World Bank chart of global measles immunization rates. For some reason Mexico dropped significantly in 2013: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/S...
JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JJ, Strange drop indeed. My guess it was the Koch brothers. Setting the stage for a Bush win in the coming election. He'll sweep in, speak a little Spanglish and send in the Calvary to save the day. Giddy up!
Sam_Tababa (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 7:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Blessedly a national public health service and socialized medicine are two different things.
We could use a much strong public health service, instead of the arcane federal privacy intrusions, industry slush funds and expensive public machinations called Obamacare.
Immunization guidelines belong within the USPHS.
But noow that you mention it Sam, immunization rates have gone down since SCOTUS, or was it the Koch Bros, ruled on Citizens United. Coincidence must be causation in this case. What ever else could it be?
JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)February 9, 2015 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In response to JarvisJarvis question, it is important to note that different people have different reactions to being vaccinated. For some (perhaps most) it gives immunity, but many people only receive 50% or so immunity from the vaccination, so even though they got the shot, they are still dependent on the "herd" immunization. So no, those people who won't vaccinate their kids are not just putting themselves and others like them at risk.
Canaveral (anonymous profile)February 11, 2015 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you for the clarification about the 50% attenuated vaccination benefit. Next question, when a child contracts measles does it deserve an automatic trip to the emergency room, as presented in a recent SF Chronicle story?
JarvisJarvis (anonymous profile)February 11, 2015 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"And again, nobody's forcing parents, just making vaccination a requirement to attend public school. Please acknowledge the difference in your next rant."
Actually you're wrong, Sam_Tababa has outright said that he would like to see parents jailed and have their kids taken from them for not vaccinating. DrDan and some others have hinted that vaccines should be a requirement for EVERYBODY, not just those attending public schools.
I said in my rant that I was ok with schools requiring some vaccinations and parents should be able to let their kids attend those schools if they want. I'm all for freedom, remember?
I'm not ok with the concept of public schooling, however. This is a different topic, but essentially public schooling requires theft which is immoral. If people want to donate money to schools that's fine, but the fact is private schools actually cost less per student than public schools and they perform much better. Poor people pay property taxes too, they always end up with worse schools, why not just give them the money back and let them spend it on their child's education? Ultimately costs for schooling will go down anyway.
Obviously this can't happen overnight, a voucher system could begin to push us in that direction and would act as a good transition to a more privatized system... as long as parents can truly choose where to send their kids and the voucher system doesn't have accreditation requirements.
Then if there is a particular vaccine that some feel is dangerous and unnecessary, you could have schools that don't require it and people could choose to go to that school. Maybe if there is an outbreak or a problem, the school could decide the risks are too great and start requiring that particular vaccine. Instead all the requirements are the same and pushed across the board by a tyrannical government and vaccine industry working hand in hand.
loonpt (anonymous profile)February 11, 2015 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Shouldn't we be a little bit more concerned about what's really killing people? War, CANCER. How many of you know someone who has died of cancer? How many of you know somebody died because someone didn't vaccinate their kid ? Exactly. We cannot have mandatory vaccinations until their is accountability from the doctor all the way to the manufacturer. If they can't stand behind their product, why should we bend over for it? Moooo.
spacey (anonymous profile)February 11, 2015 at 1:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The best point I have heard in this debate was that even libertarian's agree that the government has a role in protecting the wellbeing of it's citizens. Also, every ounce of "science" that has suggested that vaccines are harmful or dangerous in any way has been debunked. Put those two together and there is no intelligent or logical reason that vaccines should not be 100% mandatory.
Num1UofAn (anonymous profile)February 12, 2015 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Num1UofAn, your post is completely and totally incorrect. Real libertarians do not think that the government should force people to be vaccinated (please don't link me to an article from a beltway libertarian mag, I've read them). There are PLENTY of real libertarians who are pro-vaccine - some of them think they are completely safe (which is not true) - many think they are more beneficial than harmful (which very well may be true) - but no REAL libertarian is for forced inoculations, PERIOD. They are for private property rights - they do support the right of a private property owner or business to require vaccinations for people coming onto their property. This allows for personal choice. If Disneyland required vaccines, people could choose vaccinate or not visit Disneyland. Same thing with your kid's pre-school. Let freedom ring.
As far as the autism thing being debunked, a whistleblower, a Senior CDC research scientist came out and said they were told to ignore scientific evidence vaccines cause autism. It is very clear that the billions of dollars in profits that the vaccine manufacturers receive each year is going in to pumping out fraudulent research. It is clear that the media is working as a propaganda organ to fill everybody's head with this crazy notion that every child needs 30 some odd vaccines before the age of 6, the government needs to tell people what vaccines to get and that this has nothing to do with the profitability of vaccine manufacturers.
We need to work to clean up the vaccine industry and I posit the free market would do a fantastic job.
It's really great to see a pro-government progressive on this board who can think somewhat straight on this issue (spacey), although I disagree with him on many other issues.
loonpt (anonymous profile)February 12, 2015 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Big Pharma and Big Gov are perfectly trustworthy. Line up the kids for whatever shots they are pushing. Give em 2-3. Start when they are are infants in fact.
nuffalready (anonymous profile)February 17, 2015 at 7:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
While your facts and logic are correct and irrefutable Num1, I'll settle for:People without vaccines banned from all public institutions, including but not limited to: public school/any school that gets ANY public funding, civic meetings, non profits that get a tax break, events that take place on public property etc;Requirement to purchase additional insurance to cover the increased cost of medical care;Civil liability if these idiots help to get anyone else sick;Businesses having the right to exclude anyone from their business who is not vaccinated.Good old fashioned public ostracism.
We have loon's one "rogue researcher" disproving the entire body of peer reviewed evidence; we now have all of the lovely ingredients to make a cult of stupidity. I think the IV police are also in on this rather grand conspiracy.
The antivaccers are as ignorant as the Muslim terrorists.
nomoresanity (anonymous profile)February 17, 2015 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
nomoresanity, there have been multiple whistle blowers from within the vaccine industry and they have all cited specific facts from their research. There are probably a lot more out there who want to come out but are scared of losing their livelihood.
It's also hilarious you call yourself a libertarian and support so much government. At least identify yourself as a small government Republican, I'm being fairly liberal with the "small government", you sound more like a "medium government" Republican.
loonpt (anonymous profile)February 17, 2015 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)