Bush Veto Incites Protest Over 101

I hate the French and Moveon and disagree with everything they stand for. I'm not a Bush supporter but I think that everything that Moveon stands for is wrong for this country. That kind of platform belongs in socialist Europe.

Areyoukidding, you certainly seem to have the correct nom-de-internet. First, MoveOn isn't a French organization, promise. Second, I'm not quite sure where the socialist Europe you refer to exists.

Third, you disagree wtih everything that both the French and MoveOn stand for? Everything? I'll let the French defend themselves (although just their food and wine speak for their country pretty well), but as a MoveOn member, I feel I have to ask you if you really disagree with all of the following things MoveOn is about:
*an attempt to give American citizens, and not just the most wealthy, a greater voice in politics
*an attempt to hold our elected leaders accountable
*a group that wants to end the immoral and illegal war in Iraq
*a group that wants to effect national change to help slow down global warming
*a group that hopes to see universal health care for all Americans

If you disagree with all these things, then MoveOn's not for you. But if you disagree with all these things it's hard to see how you are for your fellow Americans, too.

Morons. Every day I park next to a guy (I don't know) who still has his Kerry/Edwards sticker and a "He's not my president" sticker on his bumper. It takes all of my collective willpower not to expectorate on his windshield. It's sad that more than four years later these simpletons still do not perceive the nature of the threat we face, nor the justification of the actions our president has taken to counter it. They want Clinton or Obama to take the reins, tuck tail, and get out, yet these candidates don't have the balls to bring themselves face to face with Brit Hume. How can we count on them to stare down the Ahmadenijad's of the world?

Global warming is a myth.
Universal Health Care is not a right.
Groups and people like Moveon have created an entitlement society where people don't have to work for anything that the GOV will provide for them.
If you want health care...pay for it or move to a country that provides UHC.

AREYOUKIDDING: well put. its organizations like moveondotdumb that propagate this whole global warming craze, funneling millions into unfounded studies for their liberal academic counterparts. and as for the UHC they propose.... my god. what is this Canada? amnesty for illegals, abortions for anyone over the age of nine, mercy (as in no capital punishment) for psycho mass murderers, the list goes on and on. these people have a mental disorder, and it's called liberalism.

Yer darn tootin peeps!

hell, lets arm the bears. I was watching this show about some liberals who were all upset about some sick dolphins of the coast of california and they were trying to blame some god fearing law abiding corporation for chrisakes..I was furious! And then they were complaining about our mighty Navy, the one that protects this country, for killing some pesky whales...what good are they...who needs 'em? Hey I got an idea! Time to get the Navy/Whales and dolphins teamed up... get navy divers to mount underwater sonic blasters on the dolphins to kill off the pesky whales...the military has better things to do with their time and personnel than kill the whales in the manner they have been...using submarines! please! how droll. Global warming? Ha! I bet that polar bear standing on his melting glacier is more than happy that he gets to FINALLY catch some rays and eat something (if he can find it) besides seal! let em swim somewhere else, and hopefully whereever that is I'll be waiting with my 30 ought 6 to turn him into a rug for my Den. pesky bears! taking all my hard earned tax dollars to protect 'em?!?! because some whiny liberals think that there is global warming...pshaw! let them go stand in a 4 hour line and get their head checked...I personally will laugh my ass off when they open the bill and see how much it is!! Affordable health care is for the commies and socialists...lets get them out of our country and send them to a place where poeple care about the earth and feed and cloth and care for their population, cuz this isn't the place for thinking like that. this is AMERICA. The land of the rich and inconsiderate and I'm gonna get mine and screw everybody else. Now I have to go because "born in the USA by "The BOSS" is playing and I am feeling the need to get in my hummer and BLAST IT! maybe I'll go laugh at the line at the soup kitchen while I'm out...what a waste. freeloaders

bayflipper: sarcastic much? still funny though... i like it.

My, My, My, it does seem that some real Bush loving Neocons are reading the Independent these days. I know exactly how "mcconfrontation" feels, because I feel the same way when I see a "Bush/Cheney" bumper sticker, usually on a gun toting pickup truck with some "Don't Confuse me with the facts" faux cowboy like Bush behind the wheel! And, "Bayflipper", I hope that you don't own a pet! With your great love of animals, you would probably kick him in frustration, cuz you seem mighty frustrated, or jerk him around by the ears!
Listen up! MoveOn gives true Patriots who care about Democracy a voice! I think you must get all your news from the hate mongering propaganda machine called "Fox News". You're pathetic!

areyoukidding and mcconfrontation - Well, I'll give you this ... you have the Republican talking points down. Now, let's talk facts:

- Global warming a myth? We can discuss the effects of climate change, but us liberals don't have time to continue to debate whether or not it's real. We want to fix it.

- Universal Health Care's time has come. We pay more per person for health care than any other industrialized country, and we are sicker as a nation than they are. Have you ever gone to the doctor in Canada ... or France for that matter? How do you know what it's like? Our current health care system works really well for the rich. For every one else, not so much.

- Regarding the "actions our president has taken" to counter the "threat we face." Who's the threat here? The 9/11 hijackers were from Afghanistan (4) and Saudi Arabia (15). Your president attacked a country for no reason. Yes, liberals think that's wrong.

- Brit Hume and Fox News are mouthpieces for the GOP. Why should the Dems talk to them?

I knew that the mentally ill people were out there.
VLHAMILTON, you may think you feel the same way when you see a bush/cheney sticker on some 'necks pickup truck, but the difference is the folks that fly the kerry/edwards stickers today are flaunting the flag of the losing side, much like laker fans who haven't taken those ridiculous yellow flags off of their cars by next week. generally speaking i think political bumper stickers are lame, exponentially moreso years after the election they refer to is over.

as for TREKKING_LEFT, well, you may not have time to debate the effects of climate change, but what we're saying is you shouldn't waste time debating over something that doesn't exist. No proof of its existence = nothing broken = nothing to fix. if al gore really felt so strongly about the human effect on the climate would he be traveling on G4's and running up record electric bills in his mansions? come on!

I have never gone to the doctor in Canada or France, but I do know that when dignitaries or otherwise important people, or people of some affluence, seek the best healthcare, they come here. If you make healthcare free for everyone you dumb it down. Harvard is Harvard because it's a private university, not Cal State Fullerton. see the difference? next you'll want the ditch digger and the waiter to be compensated as much as the doctor and the lawyer.

Im not rich, but because I have a JOB, I have health care coverage. It's an HMO, but I'll bet my next gubernatorial vote that it's a hell of a lot better than what they're getting in Islamabad or even Beijing for that matter.

Finally, the question you pose: "who is the threat here?" explicitly proves my point. You fail to percieve the nature of the threat. The threat is the coalition of fanatical medievalist muslims who if given the chance would kill you and your children without an afterthought. That's who we're fighting man! You didn't know that? Your need to put a national title to the threat belies the nature of it. They have no nation. It's an ideology. We are in Iraq to fight them there. When will you people get it?

"I hate the French and Moveon and disagree with everything they stand for."

That's because, like mcconfrontation, you're a bad human being, a genuinely unpleasant person, an ignoramus, and a dimwit. You two should direct your overwhelming hate at each other -- you both deserve it.

hey truth_machine, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

who uses the word "ignoramus" anyway? you may believe i am a "bad human being," and that's fine, but you ARE a simple name-caller who has not progressed past the third grade recess yard. it's actually kind of, well, sad.

"But if you disagree with all these things it's hard to see how you are for your fellow Americans, too."

He's not -- he's a misanthrope, a milder version of Cho Seung-Hui, but with the same basic outlook. Scratch any of these right wingers railing about "liberals" and you find a self-centered sicko underneath, a resentful, envious selfish person with arrested social development.

I have no desire to hurt you, only to describe you, accurately, and I have. OTOH, your claims are in fact false.

BTW, the hallmark characteristic of right wingers is transparent hypocrisy. Consider, e.g., the first word that mcconfrontation wrote here is "Morons". Enough said about him, at least for today.

So, mcconfrontation, you call truthmachine a "simple name caller". What does that make you? A "complex" one? With such masterpieces as "moron", "moveon.dumb" and "mentally ill" to describe liberalism, it's hard to believe you have never been called an ignoramus! Why are you right wingers so hate filled and angry? You are a sorry, little excuse for a man, and I feel sorry for any woman who ends up with you! I can't believe I'm commenting on your blather. I must be really BORED today!

Keep talking about Global Warming. It's kinda funny hearing about all the talk how we have to stop burning fossil fuels.

mcconfrontation - Man, you are conservative to the extreme. It's probably a waste of my time to continue this debate, but I'm never one to back down from a challenge. So, anyway, here goes ...

Global Warming - You say "come on!" as if I'm in the minority on this issue. YOU are in the minority. The majority of Americans and pretty much all scientists agree that global warming is real. The proof is overwhelming. Even Republicans are getting it. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it a myth. And you should care, because mother nature won't discriminate between the believers and nonbelievers. Now, regarding Al Gore, that comment about his mansion is so tired. If you watched the Senate hearings on climate change, you would know that he pays a lot extra for energy costs to offset the greenhouse gases he produces, and local government regulations prevent him from getting solar panels. Funny how you guys never mention that.

Universal Health Care - I think you pretty much made the argument for me. Aren't dignitaries, people of influence, and otherwise important people all wealthy by definition? Sure they come here, because they can AFFORD to. You have an HMO because they are much more affordable than PPO's. Well, I hope you don't get really sick some day, because HMO's are evil, and you might find out exactly how unfair the medical system is in this country. I have a JOB, and I have a PPO, so I can get the best health care. I'm lucky. But my premiums go up every year as they do for everyone else. So, every year more and more people can't pay for this great health care you're so proud of. I'm not saying health care should be free necessarily, but making health care affordable for all Americans is the right thing to do.

Iraq - So, according to you, we are fighting a coalition of fanatical medievalist muslims. Maybe in part. But you dodged my question ... What does that have to do with Iraq? Are you one of the 70% of Americans who thought that Iraq was responsible for 9/11? If so, you're wrong. If not, then why did we attack that country? There was simply no terrorist threat from Iraq, period. That was made a made-up reason, and we know that now. If 15 of 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, why didn't we attack them? None of these "coalition of fanatical medievalist muslims" were in Iraq. But they are now.

My lord, I thought we covered all these things. truth_machine amuses me so I'll leave him/her alone. vlhamilton: i am complex, yes, thankyou. i'll try not to call anyone any names, though. i do believe that the moveon people distracting the attention of drivers on the 101 are, well, not very bright. i saw them up there, and stared for a few seconds longer than I should have. Luckily I did not rear end anyone, and as far as I know nobody else got in an accident because of those people, but dont you think theres a better forum for protestors than on a highway overpass at rush hour? its dangerous! write an editorial or something. lead another march to the courthouse. i dont know. I havent had anything to protest lately but I think I could figure out a better place to do it. It's for that reason I called them morons. apologies. oh and i'd appreciate you keeping my wife out of it. jeez, whats next, are you going to call out my mother?

I may be in the minority on the global warming issue, but I think it's mostly due to the media blitz on the topic over the last couple of years. The sheeple have been herded, but I'm just not buying it, that's all. In keeping with your argument, just because YOU believe it doesn't make it real. I think we can agree to disagree on this one, no? And the whole Al Gore situation may seem tired to you, but could it get any better for the disbelievers? The main puppet in the show doesnt even live by the rules he preaches; it's too good to leave alone.

The UHC issue isnt even something I care too deeply about, but when you start talking about it I just cant get the word communism out of my head. About the only good thing I can see with UHC is that even the illegals would benefit from it and maybe they wont be clogging up the ER when one of their nine babies has a cold. They can just go to the free clinic like everyone else. So there's a pro amongst all the cons. whoopee.

You still miss my point on the war. I dodge no questions on this topic. What does the war against the medievalists have to do with Iraq? That's where the battlefield is! We can fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. In the meantime we've deposed an evil dictator who committed crimes against humanity (not a bad thing, right?) You miss my point in that this particular evil HAS NO NATION. so please get off the 15 of 19 hijackers are from Saudi Arabia rant, because you and I know that you are not advocationg attacking Saudi Arabia! I think it's pathetic that 70% of Americans thought Iraq was responsible for 9/11. If they think that they have no real notion of the real world or this situation. But to address your point of "none of these" people were in Iraq, are you saying that no terrorist had ever set foot in Iraq prior to 2003? I doubt that that is what you are asserting. "but they are now." Well yes, and that IS my point. The war is IN Iraq, it's not AGAINST Iraq. And if you think that Saddam Hussein should still be the dictator of that nation, well, theres a few million Iraqis that might disagree with you.

We could obviously go back and forth forever, so I'm going to leave global warming and health care alone. Since Iraq was the inspiration for this conversation, however, I will respond to that ...

Yes, Iraq is a battlefield. But that is because we attacked a country FOR NO REASON. Is that what America is about? The "evil dictator" thing doesn't hold water. If we really cared about that, then we would have removed him in the 80's when he actually "gassed his own people." Plus, we would be removing all the other evil dictators around the world. And I think you need to look at some more recent polls. Those "millions of Iraqis" are very unhappy with us right now.

Regarding Saudi Arabia, no, I am not suggesting we attack them. What I am suggesting, however, is that that would have made more sense, because unlike Iraq, they actually DID harbor terrorists. If you read Richard Clarke's book, he states correctly that attacking Iraq would have been the equivalent of attacking Mexico in response to Pearl Harbor. And in response to your question, the CIA stated that Iraq presented no terrorist threat to the US prior to 2003.

I think it's a very simplistic view of the world to say "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here." That's nothing but a George Bush talking point. The fact is that the Iraq war is creating more terrorists than ever, and it is creating them GLOBALLY. Did the Iraq war prevent terrorists attacks in Spain and England? No, but it might have inspired them. You don't think al Qaeda can multitask? They are already establishing a foothold again in Afghanistan. I am much more afraid of a terrorist attack in the US due to Iraq that I would be if we hadn't invaded that country. Fighting terrorists is more than a military strategy, and we can't do the right things to combat them because all of our resources are in Iraq.

Hey, McConfrontation, thanks for the promise not to call names. Yes MoveOn's Santa Barbara Operation Democracy Council agonized over this location, but decided at that time of day the traffic would be very heavy, bumper to bumper, and slow so the message would get to thousands of people. They ended the Anti-Veto Rally when the traffic started to speed up so no one would get into an accident! Anyway, it was a resounding success. Every local paper and television station helped get MoveOn's message out that this veto was a veto of the will of the American people! Democracy is not a Spectator Sport! A majority of Americans want an end to this fiasco in Iraq and our troops to be brought home. Too many innocent Iraqi people have become their targets because their main goal right now is just to survive. It is a tragedy for our troops and this country that we have devastated. Bush doesn't get it! You need to get the facts straight.

I've got my facts straight. Fact 1: the liberal left and its constituents have been trying to play president since 2000 because they lost the election and their power with it. For seven years I've witnessed the left stoop to just about anything to get that power back, politicizing everything from the climate to third term abortion to the war in Iraq. You people have the nerve to think you know better than our ELECTED officials and will sling any insult towards our nation's leader DURING WARTIME. The left refers to this war as illegal (untrue) and immoral (an opinion) while our volunteer military are still over there fighting! This leads me to fact 2: the left in this country, through their voices and actions, gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Largely aided by the mass media, of which the majority can be said leans generously to the left (read your comments: "every local paper and television station helped"), irrelevants like Cindy Sheehan and Al Franken are free to espouse their liberal platforms, platforms which directly affect our effort overseas to quell the rebellion of an evil enemy which we are obliged to defeat. Do they have a right to do this? Of course. Do I believe it is amoral to do so and hypocritical to say they care about the troops while aiming to defund them while they still fight? Absolutely.

As for MoveOn, well its sounds like while they debated amongst themselves over the feasability of their protest site, acknowledging it could pose a risk to drivers on the 101, the value of the volume of potential sheeple reached through utilizing the bridge outweighed the risk those people were exposed to by people trying to distract them from getting home in one piece. Just my opinion, but I don't think that's right.

And considering I write so eloquently, is it really fair to call me an ignoramus? Or pathetic? Or little? I happen to know for a fact that I am a very intelligent person. Just ask me!

Mcconfrontation, the name says it all. You're just in it for the fight.. silly trolls...

Nobody cares about the troops more than Al Franken. He has been to Iraq five times on USO tours to entertain and, yes, support the military. I look forward to you telling me how many times you've been there.

Mcconfrontation: "sheeple"? You're the one who sounds sheepish, following this self proclaimed "decider" and ruler of the world into the abyss. With this Theocon in power, our country is not safe because "the foxes are guarding the foxes and the middle class hens are getting plucked." I think it was Lieberman who said that a while back. Too bad he has lost his way. Poor little sheep.
Enough! We are never going to change each other's minds. I just hope that warfare will never be waged again by our great nation before it is absolutely necessary! This one was ill conceived and WRONG.

Al Franken only cares about himself. His self-publicity stunt failed miserably and he too bowed out like the defeatist he is. You can all believe him if you want when he says that he gave up the radio program to focus on a senatorial run, but all I see is a guy who quit when people were obviously not listening. I've never been to Iraq, but I have several family members and friends who have served/are serving, and guess what? They're not singing your songs! Call it second hand knowledge of the situation on the ground and from the cockpit of a blackhawk, but it's better than what CNN, CBS, ABC, and NBC are spoonfeeding you people. I have long held the belief that the relative safety of this little enclave of ours has brainwashed our city's citizens into thinking that we can't be touched here. I'll be the guy in the back of the room saying "I told you so" the next time we are attacked by the medievalists, and I'll be pointing the finger at all of you enablers.

"truth_machine amuses me so I'll leave him/her alone."

That's because what I wrote is unanswerable. Again:

BTW, the hallmark characteristic of right wingers is transparent hypocrisy. Consider, e.g., the first word that mcconfrontation wrote here is "Morons".

Here's a good piece on lunatics like mcconfrontation, Areyoukidding, and their despicable ilk:

[Pandering to Lunatics at the GOP Debate.]
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5...

That piece is weak. Stick to the Dr. Seuss and Nancy Drew books pal. The rest of us will be over here in the real world. Nothing you write is unanswerable truthunderscoremachine; it's inane and generally not worth it. But since you attended the redundancy school of redundancy and felt compelled to re-post your comments, I'll address you once more: you are a moron.

"That piece is weak."

A brilliant retort.

"since you attended the redundancy school of redundancy"

That doesn't even make sense, you silly cretin. The proper term is "the Department of Redundancy Department".