Colleges and Universities Unify Us

How about this: we stop putting so much emphasis on getting a higher degree and offer people of all ages to become an apprentice for a carpenter, iron worker, blacksmith, mechanic, etc. There are so many great opportunities to people of all ages but there's pressure that if you don't have at least an AA you've done nothing with your life. We NEED plumbers, carpenters, maintenance workers. We don't need unemployed, spoiled, entitled, 20-somethings with AA or BS degrees wondering why they can't find a job with their degrees.

Das, this is a heartwarming story and many have done the same or more with less. I agree colleges can unify us. In another thread a respondent named George detailed all your donors (about $1,000,000) and you are extremely beholden to teachers' unions and the educational establishment. I didn't hear you calling for a YES on Prop 30 as well as parcel taxes A and B...you are self-involved with "AB 2442, which would create the first-ever dedicated revenue source for higher education in the state."
Your office does not respond to emails, you reek of corruption, & it's not very impressive.

here is Georgy's list from "Is Das Williams a Teachers' Pet" by Brandon Fastman Aug. 30th:
Total Campaign Contributions Received by Das Williams: $1,031,182

Top 10 Interests Funding
Interest Contributions

General Trade Unions $175,451
Public Sector Unions $152,899
Tribal Governments $50,600
Health Professionals $50,299
Lawyers & Lobbyists $29,125
Insurance $23,200
Telecom Services & Equipment $21,000
Real Estate $18,500
Beer, Wine & Liquor $10,750
Electric Utilities $8,000

Top 10 Individual Contributors Funding

Contributor Contributions
Service Employees International Union $41,400
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees $33,200
United Association $21,800
National Nurses United $13,300
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $12,800
Santa Ynez Band of Chumash Mission Indians $12,600
American College of Emergency Physicians $7,800
Service Employees Local 1000 $7,800
California Teachers Association $7,800
State Building and Construction Trades Council of California $7,800
Contributions above are for the last two years of available data, May 20, 2010 - May 19, 2012. Contributions from political parties and from other candidates are not included in the "Top 10" lists.

yeah, how about we start putting emphasis on building stuff and making things. There's such great opportunities in town spending your life doing heavy labor 8 hours + a day for all the job creators; fixing their homes, cars and stuff. The kids don't need no stinkin' education, they can live in apartments. What a snob, wanting our population to be educated and have options.

Seems like somebody forgot that this guy is a politician.....

Hey Das,

Why did you vote for the $68 billion high-speed rail boondoggle?

You realize we're cutting education across the board to pay for this?

Help us out here Das. What happened? What can you do to fix this?

Das in channeling the lack of substance that pervades Lois Capps. Georgy, you better look at the real numbers associated with the high speed rail; I wish it was only $68 billion...

Absolutely agree that if we didn't export jobs to other countries we would have more of a diversity of jobs for those here to have options outside of higher education. But just because you may not want an education or access to better opportunities doesn't mean others feel the same.
Provide equal access to a multitude of options, including higher education, which is currently way overpriced and boarderline the newest lending hustle.

Not sure why there is such hate for someone who "pulled themselves up by the bootstraps" and now dedicates his life to public service? Even service to those whose main purpose is to further stymie progress and action. I guess the saying is right, haters gonna hate!

Collective - I don't think the commentors hate Das, I just think once you follow the money, you see who's paying for him to be in office AND there's no mention of education outside colleges and universities. We need to build to prosper. We don't need everyone to read this and tell their children even more how much they need to attend college and there's no way around it. Now if we want to talk about his personal voting record, he's pissed me off a few times. Mainly with giving illegal aliens licenses, limits the use of dogs while hunting certain animals, was pro on the high speed rail that's a bust, doesn't want open carry of firearms. Those are things I'd LOVE to discuss with him.

it's disgust, not hate! Oh my no. Further, AB 2442 is wrongheaded when he talks about selling off state properties, that's not the way to go, and it's not a steady funding source.
The bill "would establish the California Hope Public Trust, aimed to manage state-owned properties deemed suitable for development. The goal would be to lease or sell those properties to earn revenue for the University of California (UC), the California State University (CSU) and California Community College Systems."
I didn't hear Das supporting Prop 30 or parcel taxes A & B...he has no ideas and this one is poorly-conceived and will not raise the revenues UC needs. Further, this is just a puff piece, hey, yahoo Das...

You have a point Muggy. We sure don't need more unemployed 20 somethings with a BA in sociology. We have a dislocation between the education our young people receive and the demand for skilled/educated workers.

It's a fair point, Muggy/Botany, but in a democracy we also need savvy voters who can decipher the media blizzard of our times...this does require deep education. Sure, don't need so many sociology BAs but a well-rounded college education is very important...engineering etc as well as the liberal arts disciplines... When Muggy writes "We need to build to prosper." build what? John Maynard Keynes envisioned a time when there is only a need to work 15 hours a week...why not have wise and well-educated people capable of enjoying both physical work (which I honor: shopcraft is soulcraft) and other creative endeavors.

Well noted, understood. Not hate in the literal usage, but more in the contemporary.
And look how off topic everyone gets when he just focuses on higher education, where would we be had he tried to tackle k-12 too. Das does support Prop. 30 as do most sensible people and that means taxing those who continue to get richer at a higher rate. Fluff piece indeed, but question did you learn anything along the way?
Boy I tell you, who would want to willingly go into public service these days with the all the snapshots and misinformation?

The value of a college education shouldn't be measured only in vocational terms ... although it's no surprise so many people think this way because of the huge socioeconomic turmoil now underway.

Going to college exposes you to new ideas, new people, new cultures, and new ways of thinking. Most importantly, going through the wringer that is college efficiently hones your ability to learn and critically think on your own ... these are thing you have to do for the rest of your life.

The older I get, the more these intangibles seem less so.

Nothing wrong with being a tradesman like a painter either. I know one. He's got great critical thinking skills and likes to read (things he picked up in college). He just enjoys painting houses and being outside a lot.

DrDan: By building things I mean we need to build businesses, trades, something to help everyone prosper. Something where everyone can find what fits them best. School isn't for everyone. 15 hour work weeks are ridiculous in my opinion. Everyday, people should be working their hardest and every morning, waking up thinking they have another start to accomplish something. I can barely get work done in the office in the 50 hours a week I'm in the office...I can't imagine 15 hours being the norm or even something a prosperous community would want.

Collective: Prop 30 is a waste of our money. The money will go towards the Teacher's Union and pensions, not to our local schools like they're trying to make you believe. We shouldn't be dumping more money into a defunct educational system that's among the worst in the country.

EastBeach: I'm so surprised we're still agreeing on something! I do agree college exposes you to new ideas but I wish we were exposing our high school kids to these ideas. I was exposed to a lot in my teenage years and so my college years were spent learning and growing (mostly just because I was getting older and was hanging out with more than just my 19 yr old friends). And I agree that there's nothing wrong with being, say, a painter. I have friends who are carpenters, plumbers, painters...they all do very well because they made themselves masters at their art. Just because they don't have a college education doesn't mean they're less than anyone who has a degree and I think that's what our society is missing right now.

"Muggy" continues his/her compulsion of commenting on Prop. 30, which he/she clearly has never read.

- - "Prop 30 is a waste of our money. The money will go towards the Teacher's Union and pensions, not to our local schools like they're trying to make you believe," says "Muggy."

From the text of the Proposition, page 80:

"...(h) To ensure these funds go where the voters intend, they are put in special accounts that the Legislature cannot touch. None of these new revenues can be spent on state bureaucracy or administrative costs.

:: (i) These funds will be subject to an independent audit every year to ensure they are spent only for schools and public safety. Elected officials will be subject to prosecution and criminal penalties if they misuse the funds."

[page 82]
:: "(e) (1) To ensure that public education is not harmed in the process of providing critical protection to local Public Safety Services, the Education Protection Account is hereby created in the General Fund to receive and disburse the revenues derived from the incremental increases in taxes imposed by this section, as specified in subdivision (f)."
http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2012/genera...

Where the money goes is detailed further within the Prop.

Oh, and as I've tried to tell you before, "Mr/Ms Muggy," the Government doesn't pay the Unions; members pay for the Union through dues.

@"Binky": You're not sure if Muggy is a man or woman?...I think you're losing your edge. You used to be on top of these things.

...and since Muggy is your main adversary, I request that you change your name to "Arid".

Mr. Williams is obviously trying to make amends for his despicable vote on AB 1350, the bill which would have made it easier to dismiss pedophile teachers. He is no friend to public education. Das Williams has opposed every sensible public education reform during his time in Sacramento.

Lou Segal, the bill is SB 1350, and it is more complicated than simply "making it easier to fire pedophiles" in fact it is attempting to curtail the rights teachers have to fair and open procedures when facing dismissal.

California law already permits school boards to immediately suspend and begin termination procedures for immoral and unprofessional behavior by teachers.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fac...

By the way, the vote by Williams you speak of -- in the Education Committee -- was unanimous: 11-0 in favor of the motion "Set first hearing. Failed passage. Reconsideration granted."

I'm not in favor of de facto privatization of public lands. There are other ways. And no seems able to explain exactly why tuition is so high. It's surely not all pensions, and the unions certainly have no desire to put their members out of work.
I think President Obama is correct when he says students should go to college to seek an education- not 5 star gymnasiums ect.

I am just pleased that the door was open to binky to gleefully provide a thorough review of facts that support our untenable public union pension funds.
Take a look at the last 3 attempted firings in Los Angeles County of teachers that were repeatedly accused of sexual abuse. Millions of dollars and at least two of the teachers were allowed to "retire with full benefits". None of the rest of us have near this level of protection from our misdeeds.
Binky-are you a died in the" binky wool union member" or just a marketing shill for some unions? Seriously.

Binky: Ok so more money goes to the teacher's paycheck, do you think the unions aren't going to up their due fees? Watch, that sucker gets passed and nothing will happen to our local schools. Get rid of the unions, teachers don't have dues, then get rid of any supporting clause that doesn't allow teachers to be fired for low performing students, stop inflating their pensions and retirement packages, then maybe we'll be on the right step to fixing this state's horrible educational system. Send your kid to a CA school or send him/her to an Alabama school...you're going to get the same result, just a different accent.

School vouchers would help all this ya know. Make the public schools compete for their studetns (which will make them compete for government money) and then we have an open market and the best schools win.

BillC: Geez, I thought it was pretty obvious I'm a uni :) And "Arid" would be a good alternate name for Binky, since apparently I'm the main concern right now.

sorry binky-even I did not wish for your demise. Obviously I meant "...dyed..." and not "...died..."; your view point is too fun to lose this soon...

Das, I think you are a great guy with a great story who means really well, but I have to disagree with you on a few points.

The ONLY reason why college tuitions keep going up is because the government has decided to guarantee student loans. What this means is that a bank can grant a student loan knowing that if it goes bad, the government will bail out the bank. So if an engineering major needs $14k/year, they will make the loan. If a student needs $32k/year for a degree in Communications, they will make the loan. If the student needs $40k/year for a degree in English, they will make the loan because it is guaranteed by the government and all they can do is profit. The situation this creates is that fees go up each year, more loans get made each year, the banks profit more each year and the students who are able to attend school are the ones willing to and able to get the government backed loans. The result is that students graduate college with astronomical amounts of debt attached.

If you took away the entire notion of government backing student loans, then almost nobody would be able to afford to go to college. The result would not be that colleges and universities shut down, the result would be that the schools would immediately reduce the cost of tuition to levels that any student who is willing can sustain them self by working part time and summers. Any outside help they receive will increase their standard of living while in school.

If any of this makes sense to you, I encourage the study of Austrian Economics.

Wow, binky obviously doesn't understand that pretty much all public money is fungible.

loonpt-Do you think these folks would listen to Hayek and acknowledge the fact that he won the Nobel in the mid 70's for economics?

sure Hayek won the award, but I'm surprised you don't cite his 1944 anti-socialism tract THE ROAD TO SERFDOM, easily his worst but most famous book.
Muggy, vouchers is a lousy idea and it's part of the right wing's wish to continue to suffocate public education funding...a good K-12 private school will cost at least $20,000 @ year and no one is talking about vouchers above around $8000. Bad idea.
Vote for Prop 30 and parcel taxes A and B.

DrDan - Vouchers make the public schools compete for government funding so they will have to make their students excel instead of letting everyone pass and bad teachers keep their jobs. Private schools are expensive because they're no competition for having more students.

Muggy, private schools are expensive BECAUSE IT TAKES THAT KIND OF MONEY TO CREATE A GREAT EDUCATION FOR KIDS. Vouchers in Milwaukee and Washington D.C. have NOT resulted in increased performance. You do not address my point about the huge gap between voucher $ and what good independent schools charge.
Your sloppy logic seems to be that if we just make the public schools "compete" for gov't monies then "they will have to make their students excel." Where have we heard this "competition" crud before? Schools are not capitalistic enterprises. Talk to a teacher (I've been one for 40 years): you do not MAKE children excel. Try writing about something you understand.

Public schools don't need to waste time competing with private schools. Vouchers are just a privatization strategy meant to ultimately destroy the public school system. Don't fall for it. No government funds for private schools until the public ones are once again secure.
And no more bailouts for Wall St. either, they can send their kids to public school and go to PTA meetings if they don't like something.

I read in Time magazine back in the '90's that it takes slightly less money overall to educate a kid in Catholic (duly noted, this does not include the more trendy bells-and-whistles private schools) school because the money goes straight to education with much less administrative overhead.

Vouchers are a symptom of the problem, the problem being that the public schools have been failing miserably for a long time. The political ideology of the public schools become obvious to me when I attended school board meetings back in the late '90's when the subject was bilingual education. There were those who presented the facts, then there were the teachers skewing the subject and playing the race card.

There is also the link between the National Education Association and the Democratic Party. The public schools have the means to educate kids, but seem to always be claiming the problem is not enough $$$. As stated before, I've been around long enough to know that even if they had unlimited funds, the kids would still be lacking in basics. Also, anyone who wants a crash course in how politics affect kids--especially low income kids--should see the movie Stand and Deliver. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_an...)

I'm confused DD. Because you disagree with his writings about fearing government takeovers of assets and some of the deleterious sides of socialism, therefore what? Does that diminish his Nobel Prize for economics?
Please remember that since the Great Depression our economic system has been a blend of free market and government regulation and now we are moving closer to government control; hence the lovely "bailout" of GM where we the people are now stuck with an asset that is worth only a percentage of what we put in. Check their stock price...

mr: italiansurg:

I believe the deregulation of financial markets -- i.e. less government control -- is the generally agreed upon cause of the current financial problems besetting the U.S. and world economies.

As to the cost of the bailout to GM, here's what the CBO says:
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/file...
:: "...the Treasury has recouped roughly $31 billion of the $61 billion invested in the two companies through
repurchases of debt and preferred stock, as well as the
sale of common stock; the Treasury has also written off
or realized $7 billion in losses on its investments in GM
and Chrysler. The government retains about 33 percent
of New GM’s equity and almost $1 billion in debt obligations of “Old GM,” which remains in bankruptcy as Motors Liquidation Corporation. The Treasury has no remaining investment in Chrysler, having sold all of its shares on July 21, 2011, for $560 million."

- - - - -

The stock price I checked, as you requested, and found this article from a day ago, "GM's 3Q stock rise surprises industry":

::: " For the quarter, GM shares gained $3.05, from $19.70 on July 2 to $22.75 on Friday.

:: "U.S. shares of Japanese rivals Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co.'s each lost ground during the quarter, with Toyota down 2.5 percent, Honda off 11 percent, and Nissan down 9 percent.

:: "GM got on many portfolio managers' buy lists during the quarter because it hit a 52-week low of $18.72 in July, and many thought they were buying at the bottom...[snip]"
http://www.usnews.com/news/business/a...

- - -

I think buying and bailing a hard asset, such as auto manufacturers, was money better spent than the sweetheart deal Summers and Geithner fellated their fellow Wall-Streeters with by relieving them of toxic assets on a dollar for dollar basis. (Although the bath I expected the Guv't to take has thus far been mild.)

Deregulation of financial markets and loose/non-existant policing by existing regulatatory bodies were a huge problem. How can people have forgeten so soon?

And its generally acknowleged Republicans played a large role in working *against* additional safeguards as soon as our collective heads got above water.

As for the bailout, I like Steven Pearlstein's observations @Washington Post ... most folks on Main Street never realized how close we were to a complete collapse of our financial system. Companies that routinely rely on short term credit to make payroll could not get their usual loans! That's how frozen the credit market was People who advocate letting all the banks fail often don't tell you what they think that would have done to the economy.

Lessor of two evils in my mind.

Italiansurg you've been so shut down, on the GM bailout, on the evils of gov't deregulation,...forget the Austrian economist and own up Binky bested you!
the thread here is about making higher education more affordable, and Das's idea makes little sense...he sounds like Schwarzenegger when HE was trying to raffle off state buildings...why don't we hear Das coming out loud and clear for Prop 30 in this puff piece? Or for local parcel taxes A & B... he's slippery. He's selling himself, but the idea won't make college more affordable...

The GM bailout was a fiasco. Look at the numbers. They would have reorganized as is proper and been forced to run the company in a responsible manner. On this point, and despite much of the public opinion, the numbers favor my point of view.
We already knew Das was an idiot so that point is redundant. And with regards to public education we do not have a chance until parents start caring about their kids and we stop funding the public union pensions.
The commonly agreed upon problem is not deregulation but instead the way we changed how debt was accounted for, what we actually called debt, and how the market was made more volatile through the pass through of the new definition of debt.

While you're at it, check this out...

State of Education 2012 with Das Williams Part1 Destination Ventura

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XvRmo...

Binky, you are incorrect regarding your facts relating to SB 1350, except for me calling it AB 1350. See the following media report:

"A bill designed to make it easier for school boards to fire teachers embroiled in misconduct cases, was defeated late Wednesday by the Assembly Education Committee, effectively killing the legislation for the session.

SB 1530, proposed by state Sen. Alex Padilla, D-Pacoima, was introduced in response to the sex-abuse scandals at Miramonte Elementary and other campuses in Los Angeles Unified. It would have streamlined the process for terminating teachers in cases involving sex, drugs and violence against children.

The measure was supported by Los Angeles Unified officials, including several board members who testified during the hearing. However, the powerful California Teachers Association, as well as United Teachers Los Angeles, lobbied against it, saying it would have violated due process for teachers.

The vote of the 11-member committee was 5-2, with four abstentions. The measure needed six votes to advance."

Here are the facts:

Das Williams was one of the legislators who abstained. If he had voted yes, the bill would have gotten out of Committee.

The school district had to pay the pedophile teacher at the Miramonte School $40,000 to induce him to voluntarily resign. Otherwise, it would have taken years to exhaust his appeals.

Das Williams abstained because his biggest campaign contributors are the teacher unions.

All the other nonsense and rationalizations we hear from him are totally bogus and insult the intelligence of anyone who has a lick of intelligence.

Lou Segal, reading the bill itself, rather than a news report is the authority to which I defer.

And as your quoted (and un-referenced) text said, "A bill designed to make it easier for school boards to fire teachers embroiled in misconduct cases" is a far cry from your innuendo-fueled original post which called "... AB 1350, the bill which would have made it easier to dismiss pedophile teachers."

I hope you can see the difference.

As to the vote of June 27, I only listed one of the two votes taken that day -- you have (helpfully) provided the first one. Here's the log from the California Legislature website:

06/27/12 (PASS) Asm Education
Ayes: 11 Noes: 0 Nvr: 0
"Set first hearing. Failed passage. Reconsideration granted."
-- Ayes: Ammiano, Brownley, Buchanan, Butler, Carter, Eng, Grove, Halderman, Norby, Wagner, Williams
-- Noes: No Votes Recorded

06/27/12 (FAIL) Asm Education
Ayes: 5 Noes: 2 Nvr: 4
"Do pass as amended and be re-referred to the Committee on Appropriations."
-- Ayes: Brownley, Grove, Halderman, Norby, Wagner
-- Noes: Ammiano, Buchanan
-- No Votes Recorded: Butler, Carter, Eng, Williams
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fac...

As current law permits school boards to immediately suspend and begin termination procedures for immoral and unprofessional behavior by teachers, it is reasonable to question the necessity of this Bill.

Perhaps that is why five other people on that Committee joined Williams by not casting a vote to pass it.

Louse gal, I'd never vote for somebody who discussed imaginary bills other than the one actually written.

DrDan - Thank you for your capitalized remarks about how you've assumed I'm undereducated and have no concept how how the world works, how politics work or how the educational system works. There really is no need to "yell" over comments posted to a liberal newspaper. As for the schools not needing to "compete" comment...competition is what helped make this country what it is. It is quickly becoming a country that our founders did their best to not make it become. We are quickly becoming subjects to our government. That is profound because when our Bill of Rights was written, the term "subjects" was erased and the word "citizen" replaced it. Gov. Brown wants a higher tax rate (which by the way is the highest in CA history and the highest in the nation) and we can no longer bear arms in this state. We have become subjects overnight and by your ridiculous post in response to my logical one is one of the many reasons why teachers are always viewed as too liberal and that they are completely blind to the realities we're facing. You are teaching our children to be sheeple.

talk to a teacher (I've been one for 40 years): you do not MAKE children excel. Try writing about something you understand.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
September 28, 2012 at 2:17 p.m

DrDan: How do you feel about the success of Jaime Escelante?

Let's have a conversation about bilingual education. (Which perfectly illustrates the mentality of many in the public school system) Anybody with *life* experience (as opposed to living in a cloistered world of academic theory) knows the only way a person learn a language is by being exposed to it on a constant basis, yet these teachers insisted that by shutting off Spanish-speaking children they would somehow do better if they were proficient in their own language before switching to English, despite the fact that the children representing all the other languages coming to America without English were expected to be immersed in English, were immersed, and did well.

The evidence mounted over not only years, but decades: The Spanish-speaking kids were not doing as well. Things got so bad that it was revealed that at Franklin school eighth-grade students who had been at that school since first grade still were not proficient in English, yet the teachers and administrators kept insisting on the "bilingual" programs. Anyone who criticized the failures were called racists at worst, and out-of-touch at best. Finally, when the public outcry was overwhelming, the schools finally relented, but not before this person heard one teacher compare the ending of bilingual education to "Hitler's Final Solution", and another "activist" being quoted in a CNN article as saying that ending this failed program was "cultural genocide". (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/0...)

Public schools have been overrun by people who put either A: Idealism, or B: Vested interests, over practicality. As a result, we have low test scores, and lots of people seeking other ways to educate their kids. Rather than putting down Muggy, or anyone else for daring to bring this to your attention, it would be better to address why the schools are failing, but doing so might also threaten your paycheck if you are a public school teacher. Unions can be very coercive.

Thank you for bringing up bilingual education and unions BillC. Unions have our teachers by the balls and unfortunately, most teachers are following the sheep to slaughter and fail to realize this. Our students are only going to be as good as our teachers allow them to be. Seems to me DrDan doesn't allow for others to have different opinions than himself. I've been to schools in CA, Lousiana and overseas in France. CA had to have been the worst in regards to actually educating. Complete lack of learning about history which really would pave the way to a greater understanding of everything in life.

As for the bilingual educational system that was really only put in place so the education department wouldn't seem racist perfectly demonstrated how that's never going to work. You want to go to a public school in any country, you better know their language. And if not, guess what...that's a personal problem.

What is amazing is how people who claim to represent the underpriviledged hurt them either through idealistic naivety , or possibly they want people to be kept down.

Let's go back to slavery. It was against the law to teach a slave to read and write. Why was this? Because if they learned to read and write, they would have power. Yet today there are people who make sure that immigrants not only cannot read and write in the language of commerce and everyday communication in the U.S., but can't even communicate by speech yet these people call themselves "progressive". How can they possibly think they are helping these people?

Blacks, Jews, Mexicans, Asians have suffered racism in this country, and the ones who succeeded did so through education. If a white person couldn't read and write they would be at a terrible disadvantage, imagine not even being able to speak to your neighbor on account of a language barrier, and since the people who support bilingual education argue that racism is keeping the people they claim to represent down, isn't that all the more reason to make sure they can use the power of literacy?

In Spanish, there is a saying: "Saber es poder" which roughly translates to "knowledge is power". Again, how do these educators reconcile their position against these facts?

Bill, though a liberal I have also been against the bilingual ed extravaganza. Even Muggy has to see that. The Jaime Esc. story is wonderful: in 40 years teaching in public ed., private ed., internationally, teachers like that are extraordinarily rare and to think we could grow a crop to instructors like that is a wonderful idea...and really unlikely. I've personally only met 3 teachers of that calibre.
Muggy, apologies if I injured your hearing with my caps, but you do not know what you are talking about. You confuse capitalistic competition and business with schools and learning. Children are not widgets.
You do not address my point about the huge gap between voucher $ and what good independent schools charge. And you do not address the lack of academic success in the voucher schools I noted...
here it is, I won't advise you about business and competition and Wall St., you might consider staying out of education advice since here you aren't "uneducated" (I did not write or imply that), but you are woefully ignorant.

@Bill, you wrote, "Public schools have been overrun by people who put either A: Idealism, or B: Vested interests, over practicality. As a result, we have low test scores, and lots of people seeking other ways to educate their kids." However, after all the discussion, the compelling fact remains that the economic background of the family is WAY [hey, not shouting here, don't want to hurt anyone's feelings..] the main predictor of student learning. In the SBN-P a few weeks ago they printed a huge graph showing student learning via the (I think) State "Star" tests...almost every local public school with high student test scores came from wealthier areas of SB.

Public vs. private schooling...well let's see. Private school tuition would actually be cheaper per student because there is less administrative staff to pay for. I just looked up a few articles on the subject and all of the ones I found came to a rough conclusion that private school would be about 1/2 the cost of public school per student. Private schools offer more teachers to students ratio as well. Academic reputation, school/class size, safety, ideology, specialized programs...those are all reasons why we should have more parents able to send their kids to private schools. By increasing taxes, this is not achievable for most middle class parents.

DrDan you seem unaware how much we will be taxed in California. How does this NOT remind you of a monarch? We have no 2nd Amendement and we're being taxed outrageously in this state. Remind you of anything in our history??

"the main predictor of student learning. In the SBN-P a few weeks ago they printed a huge graph showing student learning via the (I think) State "Star" tests...almost every local public school with high student test scores came from wealthier areas of SB."

DrDan: Part of the reason this is the case is the horrendously low expectations people have of people of color, which is why I bring up bilingual education. On that note alone, if the parents of these kids were not given services in Spanish they would be better integrated into American culture and that alone would make a difference for the kids. Those kids who have come from poor backgrounds who go into charter schools do quite well, and if the Jaime Escelante approach were applied rather than ignored we would see a big turnaround. I would also add that schools should not be dependent on local taxes but an across-the-board funding plan to ensure all schools get the same funding.

glad you did some research, Muggy, and that we can have a reasonable dialogue. My own research and considerable experience in private schools -- have evaluated 10 elite private schools in LA area for CAIS -- casts great doubt on your statement: " private school would be about 1/2 the cost of public school per student." That is simply untrue -- a school like Harvard-Westlake in LA has got to cost over $28,000 @ year!
Bill, we agree on the bilingual ed fiasco, and totally agree on the across-the-board taxing idea: we would all be stunned by how much so-called public schools like Montecito Union [a fine school with very high test scores] raise in private fundraising compared to, say, Harding School near where I live. There are ways to fix this, and I am working on means to get the public interested in it, a minor help to public education.
I sort of get the Jaime Escalante thing, and favor this more demanding approach: with the way public ed is under fire and the weird pressures public school teachers face, very VERY few teachers would dare try it: they'd likely get fired.

DrDan - I did some research so I'd have current figures. I've been to both public and private school and I was sent to private schools because in states where taxes weren't so outrageous and people weren't so caught up in liberal BS, it was actually cheaper for me to be sent to a private school than to deal with all the extras public schools ask the parents to pay for. Once again, my comments are based on ya know, actually living life, rather than spending it in a classroom where you learn about people who are living life.

Prices go up because they can go up. I know you disagree with me on this but it's all about competition. And you said something before about how our schools system or education is not about competing. Well guess what, it is. If you have 2 schools that have no competition, they can each agree to keep raising their tuition costs because what are you going to do? Sell your house, uproot your family, find new jobs only because you have to pay an extra $500 a year? Then it'll go up and up and you're screwed. School does not and did not have to be this expensive and for some reason, you're not seeing that.

You're also not realizing that this new tax prop will make us the most taxed Americans. So let's break this down. In CA, we will have the highest tax rate in the country (taxed all 3 ways: property tax, income tax, sales tax) this will be the highest tax rate in CA history AND we do not have the right to bear arms. Do some research on why we have the right to bear arms and you will see how important it is we do not allow the government to tax us to this extreme.