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Not Genocide


Tuesday, December 11, 2012
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On December 3, 2012, California State Assemblymen Mike Gatto and Katcho Achadjian (representing part of Santa Barbara County) introduced Assembly Joint Resolution 2 “Relative to Armenian Genocide.” Influenced by an ethnic lobby, AJR 2 seeks for the California Assembly to legislate an allegation of a crime against humanity without any court investigation, trial, or judgment. The bill improperly applies the legal term “genocide” to describe World War I era interethnic strife in the Ottoman Empire, and calls upon the U.S. Government and Congress to do the same.

The WW I atrocities in the Ottoman Empire were never tried in any competent tribunal and the intent to exterminate Armenians was never established. No verdicts were issued interpreting these events in terms of the 1948 United Nations Convention on Prevention and Punishment oGenocide. Furthermore, the International Court of Justice — a primary authority to determine applicability of the ‘genocide’ term — has never opened ca ase or drawn conclusion on the mentioned allegations.

According to a renowned American expert of Ottoman history, Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University, there was no “deliberate preconceived decision of the Ottoman government” to eliminate Armenians and the claim of genocide constitutes only “the Armenian version of history.” During the same period of WW I, over half a million Turks, Kurds, Azeris and other civilians were mass murdered by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation forces in Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, in an attempt to carve out a mono-ethnic Armenian state.

AJR 2 fails to reflect on these sufferings, instead squarely accusing Turkish nation of a grave crime without any legal ground. Commenting on a similar “Armenian genocide” legislation in French Senate, later dismissed as unconstitutional by France’s highest court, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton indicated that the Turkish-Armenian issue is a matter of historical debate by scholars.

I join all Americans of Turkic descent, members of the Pax Turcica Institute, to oppose AJR 2 and to reject any deceitful historical narrative legislated under the influence of ethnic special interests.

Comments

Independent Discussion Guidelines

Unfortunately the Turkish country was indeed responsible for a grave crime against Armenian people, to the extent it can legally be called "genocide". The only people that "debate" this are the people who's ancestors committed the genocide.
I join all Americans of every descent in calling for Turkey to admit historical guilt and move on.
Btw, your letter espouses influencing American foreign policy to coax the apparently fragile psyche of the Turkish government. Talk about special interest!

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have an idea. Turkey should admit that they committed genocide against the Armenians and then the world will condemm the Armenian Revolutionary Federation for committing genocide. Get over it Turks you have the blood of millions on your hands.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 5:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The genocide of Armenians by Turks in and after 1916 is indisputable fact. I've read the number 1,000,000, but it's not exact. Perhaps Turkey will soon give up the protests, own up to it, apologize properly, and yeah, just move on. When they do this their stalled membership application to the EU will get a boost: this is important for the EU AND for Turkey, as well as for the USA.
Do we Americans take the onus and responsibility for the slow genocide of native Americans between late 1820s -- 1890s? I am not sure we do, but here we are telling the Turks to do what we haven't.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually the US has taked the responsibility and "onus" for our treatment of Native Americans in a joint resolution of Congress signed by President Obama on April 3, 2009.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z...

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 5:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Denial of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians is just as disgusting as Holocaust denial. Shame on Ms. Allen for trying to sell the b.s. argument that the slaughter of at least a million souls was the result of "interethnic strife." The 1916 pogrom against the Armenians was only one of many Turkish crimes against humanity. The Hamidian Massacres of 1894 killed up to 300,000 Armenians. The Adana Massacres of 1909 killed up to 30,000 Armenians. Then there is the genocide of Greeks in Turkey, but that is another story.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 5:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you HG, that's important.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 7:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wasn't the Greek/Turk population exchange (1923?) a two-way street with atrocities on both sides...? Smyrna? It shows population transfer, mentioned with regard to West Bank/Israel also, isn't a particularly good solution either.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 7:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey kids, here's another fun fact: Google "Assyrian Genocide" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyfo)

This ain't just something I stumbled upon while web browsing, it's something I learned from the stories my Assyrian grandmother told me when I was a kid about how the Assyrians were persecuted by the Turks and Kurds. Having said this, let's move forward and stop asking those who have done no wrong to apologize for what their ancestors have done. On the other hand, if Turkey pretends it didn't happen, then they deserve the scorn they're getting.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 11, 2012 at 7:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Those on the payroll in the 'defense' department are always having to cover up something. Seems like we are constantly having to include opinion and revision in debates of fact. Investing in education should be a priority based on the writing and fiction that disguises itself as history in this letter.

spacey (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is interesting to observe some comments claiming that a biased narrative "can be legally called genocide" without any court process. Isn't that itch to blame those "damn Muslim Turks", without any interest in their story, called prejudice and racism? The total number of Ottoman Armenians estimated per census before World War I was 1.4 million. Looks like some total figures of "relentless massacres" allegedly committed exceed some 2 million killed, while over 8 million Armenians live around the world today. Where did those people come from, if everyone was killed? Is mass relocation of people within state borders (Syria was part of Ottoman Empire), to prevent them from cooperating from invading enemy forces, called "genocide"? Darn, we must have committed a genocide by doing that to Japanese Americans during World War II here in America!

Get your story straight, folks, faking numbers only defames the memory of innocent people (Armenian and Turks), who perished in this mayhem. What's ridiculous is that with burning economic problems and huge unemployment in the state, our SECOND bill in the new legislature is to recognize the Armenian narrative as genocide. Is this a priority right now, one shall ask Mr. Achadjian? Does he serve the electorate in California or some fans in Armenia?! Why not run for Armenia's parliament then, instead of bringing age old bias to California? Why not be concerned about those fellow Armenian-Americans who defraud our Medicare system for billions of dollars, steal healthcare from our elderly people, why not focus on educating them?

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No it's itching to call bs on bsers.
What the Turkish government did to the Armenians is legitimately genocide. Parse that.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Denial of the Turkish genocide perpetrated by armed Armenian terrorists (called "revolutionaries") is just as disgusting as Holocaust denial. Armenians killed 1.19m Muslim civilians. They commmited genocide.
Shame on the legislators for trying to sell the BS argument that the relocation of the rebellious population was a "genoide". The 1915 pogrom against the Turks by armed Armenians in Van was only one of many Armenian crimes against humanity. Similar crimes were commited by Armenians in Azerbaijan as well - in Khojaly. Denial by Armenia of her own genocide in Khojaly is just as disgusting as Holocaust denial. Shame on the rotten Armenian propaganda and its payroll lobbyist in US legislature.

hrantdink (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What the Armenian government does today to Azeris, that is occupation of fifth of their homeland, forced expulsion of 800,000 people in an ethnic cleansing campaign, horrific war crimes cutting the bellies of pregnant Azeri women and poaching eyes of children in Khojali in 1992, should also be called genocide then. Along with lying to America, calling interethnic conflict a genocide against the law, then supplying weapons to Iran (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2...), defrauding Medicare (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-...) and getting billions in aid from American taxpayers by dirty politics. California is not Armenia, time to serve all constituents and not just one ethnic group.

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Of all the articles the Indy publishes online, why is it only these ones on the Armenian genocide that interest you hrantdink? You decry the legislators for wasting time but defending Turkey and attacking Armenians seems to be all you have time to comment on. Are you even local?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And given Turkey's modern day treatment of the Kurdish people....

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Where to start? How about geograpy? davidbeck take a look at a map. At the time of the Turkish genocide (btw the word genocide was coined at the close of WW1 because of the mass slaughter of Armenians by the Turks) Most Armenians lived in Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and Persia. The most accepted figure is about a million and a half Armenians were killed by the direct action of the Turkish forces. They did not just kill thier own Armenians. When the Turk army pushed into the Russian Areas they took time from fighting a war to hunt down and slaughter Armenians (much like their German allies would do twenty five years later to Jews). The pre war Armenian population was really more like two million. Almost half a million survived deportation. Half a million survivors added to the Armenians in other lands plus reproduction over the last ninety six years and viola you get eight million Armenians. So what is the problem davidbeck? except that you have a limited grasp of geography and biology.
oh and WTF does the actions of the Nation of Armenia or that of Armenian Americans (welfare fraud really?) have to do with the clear fact that the Ottoman / Turkish nation commited genocide?

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

hrantdink,
You really should have used your line from a Feb 2012 post,"There was no Armenian genocide committed in 1915, it is all made up, forgery, BS by the loswers."

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 5:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HG, they're obviously astroturfers employed by someone to spread disinformation. They're getting pretty obvious to spot.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Word

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 5:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I oppose AJR 2, a deceitful legislation influenced by ethnic lobby, because…

Assembly Joint Resolution 2 introduced by California State Assemblymen Mike Gatto and Katcho Achadjian promoting an “alleged” Armenian Genocide, is based on a racist and dishonest interpretation of history.

Quoting myths, cliches and slogans, these two Armenian lobbysists butcher history scholarship. Their approach to Turkish-Armenian conflict is delusional and replete with errors, omissions, misrepresentations, fabrications, and self-praise. For example, one reads nothing about Armenian hate crimes, war crimes, revolts, treason, terrorism, territorial demands and the Turkish victims of atrocities committed by Armenians between 1890-1922.

Well, what’s left ? What’s left is wild Armenian accusations, discredited pseudo-scholarly arguments, unjustifiable political claims, anti-Turkish bias, and anti-Muslim bigotry, all persistently contributing to the formation of a racist attitude fueling an ominous genocide industry.

Lacking legal and historical substantiation, the Armenian lobby’s effort only fan the flames of division, polarization, and Armenian hatred for all things Turkish. Nothing more.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 7:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Armenians must face up to their own unspeakable crimes against humanity before any closure can occur. If you are still in doubt, let me refer you to an Armenian source to see photos of Armenian murderers, gun-toting Armenian clergy, their Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims: Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914 (The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006. The incredible photo on page 185 can be seen here: www.ethocide.com .

This single frame of photo will make a believer out of you that Armenian are not telling you the whole truth... They never did!

Armenian terrorism, treason and many revolts from 1862 to 1922 contradict with the embellished and falsified Armenian narrative. This turn, creates “cognitive dissonance” in Armenian people. Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting ideas, beliefs, and values simultaneously. In a state of dissonance, people may feel surprise, anxiety, fear, guilt, anger, humiliation, or shame. Modern Psychology informs us that people tend to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create consistency in their belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements. Armenian choose to do the latter, totally ignoring and censoring the other side of the story pointing at Armenian hate crimes and war crimes, which are conveniently “forgotten” in AJR 2. (www.ataa.org )

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Genocide is a long discredited Armenian political claim, not honest history

The term genocide describes a special crime that is precisely defined by the U.N. which can only take place if intent to destroy , in part or whole, a community with common traits, is proven after due process, at a competent tribunal ( http://www.mfa.gov.tr/data/DISPOLITIK... )

For such an intent to exist, there must be a protracted history of racial hate and discrimination, building up to a boiling point, such as in the Holocaust (1942-1945), the Rwanda Genocide (1994) and, most recently, the genocide in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica (1995.) Whereas it is common knowledge that no such systematic, scheming and lasting hate campaigns ever existed in the 623-year-long the history of the Ottoman Empire.

In fact, quite the contrary exists, where the Armenians were dubbed "the loyal nation", that is of course, until the early 20th Century. There was no competent tribunal employing due process of any kind scrutinizing the embellished Armenian allegations of genocide--save the Kangaroo courts of 1920 in occupied Istanbul--and there exists no court verdict. Malta Trials attempted by the British occupiers had to be abandoned because the Crown Courts could not find supporting evidence and documents in the two years they researched Ottoman, British and American archives. Moreover, the 1916 Ottoman Courts Marshall did try, convict and punish abusers of the TERESET (the Temporary Resettlement Order of May 27, 1915). All of these legal proceedings of one kind or another do help prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that there was no genocide. None of this, however, seems to stop Armenian lobbyists and their supporters from outrageously claiming that 1915 events constitute genocide, totally ignoring Armenian war crimes, revolts, treason, terrorism, hate crimes, territorial demands and their Turkish victims.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

User profile: Kirlikovali

Joined: Dec. 12, 2012

Comments posted: 4 (view all)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 8:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Turkish Embassy is on mad spin cycle.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 12, 2012 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, the hatred of some American Armenians against Turks for a mutual killing spree initiated by Armenian revolutionary forces against the Ottoman Empire, their own country, and innocent Turks, their own neighbors, almost 100 years ago is unbelievable.

1) For genocide to have occurred, all Armenians living in the Empire would have been targeted not just the ones who revolted. Other Armenians, for instance those living in Istanbul and minding their own business, were not targeted because there was no genocide.

2) Current Turks, many of whom are good friends with their Armenian neighbors living in Turkey, have nothing to do with the unfortunate events of the past, just as the current Armenians, many of whom are good friends with their Turkish neighbors, cannot be held responsible for the deeds of their ancestors forever.

3) California legislators, you were elected to represent your constituents from diverse backgrounds fairly and honestly. Blindly passing laws that do not concern California residents based on unfounded claims by certain Armenian lobbyists is plain wrong.

It’s time to champion peace between current Armenians and Turks!

AmericanForesight (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree AmForesight, but also when many Turks continuously deny genocide...uh, that would enrage me or any Armenian, no? Many Germans were "good friends" with German Jews but that didn't help, now did it??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why does Turkey oppose an independent Kurdistan with no loss of what is now Turkish territory?
How does Turkey treat the Kurdish people today? Same way they treated the Armenians?
Furthermore there's an arrogant assumption that Armenians wished to be part of the Ottoman Empire, but many parts of the Ottoman Empire rose up to throw off their oppressors during WWI. Ever seen Lawrence of Arabia? Why are the Arabs heroes for throwing off the Ottoman yoke but the Armenians are bad guys?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 2:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok, it is customary for people who just want to hear what Bernard Lewis properly called "the Armenian version of history", to immediately accuse anyone opposing their view of being "Turkish embassy on mad spin cycle". Did Turkish embassy organize the Armenian-American defrauding of Medicare too? Or maybe Turkish embassy asked Serzh Sargsyan, now President of Armenia, to sign off on a sale of conventional weapons to Iran that killed an American soldier in 2008? Huh? Where is your answer to that?

I am here to surprise you, Ken Volok, that I am just a concerned California taxpayer, who seeks to make sure that the elected officials in our legislature prioritize issues of concern for this state, not the racist agenda of their ethnic brethren and country of origin across the ocean. That is not what they are elected for. No one authorized Mr. Achadjian to host a controversial foreign figures from the Armenian-occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region as officials in California Assembly, USING our tax money. Is that what voters in Santa Barbara County voted for? Enough is enough after all, this is America, not Armenia.

And seriously, review your facts. Armenians did not comprise a majority in any single province of the Ottoman Empire prior to World War I. Yet their radical party, Armenian Revolutionary Federation, sought to carve out an Armenian state using the pretext of Russian advance in Eastern Anatolia. And on the way, ARF also sought to eradicate non-Armenian population. This same goal has been achieved in present-day Republic of Armenia with 0% non-Armenian population after ethnic cleansing of all Turkic and other Muslim subjects from Armenia proper. And look who is talking about a genocide.

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 4:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken, your anger is amazing. Turkey is not against an independent Kurdistan outside of its territory, but understandably Syria, Iran, and Iraq are. If one day the USA is no longer a world power, will you be OK with different ethnic backgrounds declaring war against the mainland and establishing their own little countries? Or would you be OK with giving American Indians the entire North America back now? After all, weren't they here before? The truth is human beings are territorial in nature even though land ideally should belong to no one. Territories change from time to time (often as a result of blood shed) and the former habitants do not own and control that land anymore.

AmericanForesight (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My anger? Call it my amazement. Your words Mr. Beck and AmFore speak volumes in and of themselves. Note no defense of Turkey's treatment of the Kurdish people.
As for an independent Kurdistan, as of 2008 Turkey was still opposed, show credible proof otherwise.
Thankfully our news media isn't subject to Turkish censorship laws and thankfully for all people in the region the Ottoman Empire fell, never to return.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here you can see what is being referred to as Turkey at that time in history was the Ottoman Empire. Why the subsequent government(s) won't acknowledge the guilt of a proceeding government is strange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_...

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 5:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What is about the Turkey's treatment of Kurds? The fact that 8 Turkish Presidents had Kurdish heritage, do you mind Kurdish political parties and elected MPs in Turkey's Parliament now, or perhaps, you prefer having a terrorist organization like PKK, denounced by Kurds themselves, to determine their fate. And where are the Kurds in Armenia one shall ask? How about Armenia's treatment of Azeris or Turks on its territory? Can people with Turkish passport travel to Armenia as freely as Armenians can to Turkey?

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 5:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For a simple California taxpayer you certainly have a lot of intimate knowledge of Turkey's leaders. I'm impressed.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 5:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken, FYI many Ottoman Sultans married non-Turks and treated Turks not so favorably. Plus, it's nice of Kurdish Turks to be elected to President or Prime Minister quite often. If PKK wants to terrorize the region despite this type of freedom and democracy, shame on them.

AmericanForesight (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So why is acknowledging the Ottoman Empire's genocide of ethnic Armenians so tough for today's leadership? They aren't being held accountable, they're in no danger of war crimes prosecution.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

After all, the Ottomans oppressed Turks.. and yes that should be acknowledged. But continued an unhealthy cycle of denial will rob Turkey of ever becoming a truly free country. Instead the suppressed history will fester like a cancer; the elephant in every room because it dare not be referenced.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 13, 2012 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok, because it was NOT a genocide, exactly as the article articulates. And trying to pass it as one by petty political lobbying or using own ethnic legislators, instead of fair and open debate of historians, is dishonest.

Indeed as a California taxpayer I reassert that instead of deceiving hard-working Americans, Mr. Achadjian and his kinds should take time to educate own community, instead of teaching them to be cave Turcophobes since childhood by false historical narrative, help to prevent them from ending up as credit card or Medicare fraudsters. Stealing from elders' healthcare is immoral and should be your concern too, Ken Volok, if you are truly a taxpayer,

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 14, 2012 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nobody is accusing the present day Turkish people of being responsible.
I'm surprised that since you share my concerns about the elderly, healthcare ect that this is the only article you've deemed fit to comment on..

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 14, 2012 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

One is not a Turcobphobe (sic) to believe people of Turkish lineage killed a million or more Armenians 1915 - 1916. No one in their right mind accuses modern-day Germans of participating in the Nazis unspeakable crimes (incl. the Holocaust) or that they have any guilt. But the government of Germany today and since 1945 has repeatedly acknowledged the Holocaust and the problems of fascism and Hitler. No Turkish government to date has acknowledged formally the guilt of (now-deceased) Turks in the mass killings of Armenians.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 14, 2012 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The comments to this informative article are almost as enlightening as the article itself.

For example reader Ken_Volok opines: "The only people that "debate" this are the people who's ancestors committed the genocide."

So by that rationale, the author of this article Kathy Allen, Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton are all descendants of genocide perpetrators.

Wow, this must be the same mentality (if one can call it that) that supports making any opposition to a certain historical point of view a crime in France. Sorry pal, in this country we believe in freedom of speech.

Also, since both the Turks and Armenians murdered each other during those events a century ago, why is it only the Turks that get accused of committing genocide and not the Armenians? Is it because the rebelling Armenians lost and got their butts handed to them? Unlike Hitler, where is the proof that the Ottoman Sultan ordered the extermination of all his Armenian subjects which apparently had lived for centuries under that empire without being killed, instead of ordering the deportation only of those Armenians who were siding with the Russians against the Turks.

And if such proof exists, why has Armenia not taken it to the International Court of Justice as stated in the article?

Both sides need to get over events that happened nearly a century, apologize to each other and get on with their lives.

EMIP (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

EMIP, absolutely yes, both sides need to get on with their lives. Extending sincere apologies regrets whatever helps in this process; Turkey needs to own up, Erdogan makes a heartfelt statement of apology, Turkey gets into the EU...could be a win win.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dr. Dan, these things cannot be one-sided. It should be done jointly between Turkey and Armenia with both sides apologizing to each other for past wrongs (and there were plenty on each side) as well as agreeing to relinquish any claims on each other's territory.

To carry the thought one step further, the same principle might hold true in resolving the current impasse between Turkey and Israel. They should both apologize to each other simultaneously; Turkey to Israel for the deaths of 768 innocent Jewish refugees aboard the disabled freighter SS Struma in 1942, and Israel to Turkey for the nine Turks killed during their 2010 assault on the Gaza Aid flotilla.

Finally, Turkish entry into the EU is also ancient history. Their economy is much better off than the EU and according to all published polls the majority of Turks don't want to join the EU any longer. Which in my opinion by the way is a loss to us in the West; we can't rightly criticise Erdogan for looking Eastward for economic opportunities using his religious bona fides when the Europeans have cold shouldered that country's membership for over a quarter century. A lost opportunity for Europe to extend its Western influence and to open new markets.

EMIP (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 1:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

EMIP, yrs indeed they are all descendants of genocide perpetrators. But only a fool would hold them personally responsible. Indeed it is the rationality you employ EMIP that leads to censorship laws in Turkey (the accused historical entity).
Again, most if not all peoples rebelled against the Ottomans when they had the chance, as most people prefer their own bad government to the imposed "good" government of another.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The term genocide describes a special crime that is precisely defined by the U.N. which can only take place if "intent to destroy" , in part or whole, a community with common traits, is proven after due process, at a competent tribunal.

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/data/DISPOLITIK... .

For such an intent to exist, there must be a protracted history of racial hate and discrimination, building up to a boiling point, such as in the Holocaust (1942-1945), the Rwanda Genocide (1994) and, most recently, the genocide in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica (1995.) It is common knowledge that no such systematic, scheming and lasting hate campaigns ever existed in the 623-year-long the history of the Ottoman Empire. In fact, quite the contrary exists, where the Armenians were dubbed "the loyal nation", that is of course, until the early 20th Century.

There was no competent tribunal employing due process of any kind scrutinizing the embellished Armenian allegations of genocide--save the Kangaroo courts of 1920 in occupied Istanbul--and there exists no court verdict.

These facts do not seem to stop Armenian writers and their supporters from still outrageously claiming that 1915 events constitute genocide, totally ignoring Armenian war crimes, revolts, treason, terrorism, hate crimes, territorial demands and their Turkish victims.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 2:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The American revolutionaries were also called terrorists, traitors ect.
And I'm sorry Kirkolavi but your argument is basically one of two wrongs equalling a right.
The Ottoman Empire was vicious and sadistic and exploitative, of it's own people and people it colonized. Of course people took the first opportunity out despite the patronizing term "loyal nation".

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we should all thank Kathy Ellen for having introduced logic and reason into the discussion at hand. If one were to follow the points Kathy Ellen makes, then the arguments of the likes of Ken Volok would fall moot. But, expecting that from Volok is too much to ask for, because he and others of the same mind are blind-folded to the facts that they do not want to know about. So, dear readers, I can only suggest that if you are interested, please dig into the facts yourselves rather than succumbing to the one-liners and senseless comments such as “fun facts” referring to people losing their lives. If indeed there was an Armenian Genocide, it certainly would have been plainly evident by now- that is, close to a century after the horrible events of the First World War. For example, you can visit http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/, www.tallarmeniantale.com/, or www.CPTSTRS.org/, a site formed by “Concerned People To Set The Record Straight.”

Sevgino (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess I'll be banned in Turkey now.

User profile: Sevgino

Joined: Dec. 15, 2012

Comments posted: 1 (view all)

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 15, 2012 at 7 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok, you attribute too much importance to yourself to assume getting banned in Turkey, a status deemed fit for drug dealers, human traffickers, mass murdereres, and openly racist activists. I think you take Armenian claims at face value and dismiss all facts refuting them.

Here is a question that paralyzes genociders like you: "How many Muslims did Armenian kill during WWI?" You see it is a very simple question. Let's see if we can get an honest answer from this Armenophile. (Don't get your hopes high, though.)

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 8:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Googling for "Armenian Genocide" you get the standard Wikipedia article, it's been referred to above by KV, and there is certainly a scholarly consensus that the Ottoman Empire, largely Turkish in this time period (1900 - end of W W I when it disappeared), led a mass genocide of religious minorities (usually Christian). Along with over a million Armenian Christians, the Assyrian Christians (BC is right) and the Pontic Greeks (living in Asia Minor) were also savagely persecuted. Yes, the Greek nation-state across the Aegean Sea was not behaving well, either. The Pontic Greek genocide may have reached as many as 750,000 killed in Asia Minor [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Genocide], in what later became the Turkish Republic under K. Attaturk.
Erdogan can defuse some of this by making a reasoned explanation followed by an apology for any actions Turkish groups under the Ottomans perpetrated on Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greek Christians.
I am neither radically Armenophile nor Armenophobe.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dr. Dan, Perhaps you missed reading my earlier reply to you yesterday so let me repeat, any apology cannot be one-sided. To be fair and even-handed, it should be done jointly between Turkey and Armenia with both sides apologizing to each other for past wrongs (there were plenty on each side) as well as agreeing to relinquish any claims on each other's territory.

Are you aware that to this day Armenia still makes claims on parts of the internationally recognized sovereign territory of the Republic of Turkey? If you wish to read about this from an independent source that is neither Armenian nor Turkish, I would refer you to the following article whose link I am providing below. The "EuroDialogueXXI" - International Internet-portal is a free independent network confederation of individual and cooperative partners of the OSCE, CIS and EU member-states:

http://eurodialogue.org/Armenian-Home...

EMIP (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

EMIP I went to the site, it is very interesting. "Armenia" as a geographical location has certainly moved around over the centuries and millennia. Like another recently re-created nation-state [Israel, and Pakistan (never was a state)], the new post-1989 Armenia has its own crazies.
This information doesn't alter the scale of the Turkish genocide of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire in 1915 - 1916, and Erdogan should apologize. Sure, have the rulers of Armenia do so also, but they won't, and the burden is on Turkey.
I also think it's quite a loss for the EU not to have Turkey in their union.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 11:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Who's telling the truth? A country that practices extreme censorship or the rest of the world?

Below's a nice article on censorship in Turkey.
http://www.thenation.com/article/1608...

An excerpt:
"Reporters Without Borders reports that references to Ataturk, "the armed forces, the Turkish nation, minorities (especially the Kurds), or so-called 'terrorist' organizations" are key targets for online censorship. So is even suggesting that the Turks of the Ottoman Empire committed genocide in killing more than a million Armenians during and just after World War I.

Treading in these and other areas that the government finds sensitive has gotten the print, radio and TV media in trouble for years. According to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), 57 Turkish journalists are currently in prison for crossing one arbitrary line or another, more than in any other nation. In March alone, the government arrested at least a half-dozen Turkish journalists, among them Ahmet Sik, an investigative reporter jailed for allegedly accusing the Gulen Movement, an influential Muslim organization, of infiltrating the security forces.

Three weeks after Sik's incarceration, Istanbul police raided the office of his lawyer, as well as the publishing house Ithaki and the newspaper Radikal. They copied and then destroyed computer files containing the draft manuscript of The Army of Imam, the book in which Sik reportedly makes his Gulen charge. His book apparently also reveals other information embarrassing to the AKP and its conservative and charismatic prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Erdogan dismisses claims that he is stifling dissent, a ritual denial rolled out in part to buttress what one critic calls Turkey's "fake democracy," in part because on June 12 the nation votes in parliamentary elections and he needs a majority of AKP seats to stay in power, and in part because the European Union, into which Turkey has long sought entrance, frowns on media censorship."

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 2:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok, talking about freedom of speech and otherwise, why not check the deplorable state of human rights in Armenia: http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/fr... and http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/...

"More than three years after deadly street clashes between police and opposition protesters left 10 individuals dead, there has been no meaningful accountability for the excessive use of force by law enforcement. The government decriminalized libel, but drastically increased financial penalties in civil libel suits. Authorities continue to restrict freedom of assembly. Torture and ill-treatment in police custody persist and the government has failed to effectively investigate a troubling number of deaths in custody and non-combat deaths in the military."

Is that any better than Turkey? Or perhaps, you think that the failed unconstitutional legislation in France, to punish denying the alleged "Armenian genocide", is a contribution to freedom of speech?

How does lack of "genocide" recognition prevent Armenia from ceasing ethnic cleansing and occupation of neighboring country, treating its own citizens with better rights so that they don't flee the country en masse as they do, and from becoming a civilized country?

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 16, 2012 at 10:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As I've said before, two wrongs do not equal a right. Why doesn't Turkey set a good example?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 17, 2012 at 12:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok, you failed to answer a single argument brought forth disputing the Armenian allegations, instead just keeping on pointing fingers at Turkey and asking it to set an example. Turkey already sets an example by being a civilized nation unlike Armenia, by not practicing racism unlike Armenia. As indicated before not a single Turk lives or can visit Armenia without fear to his/her life, Armenians visit and live in Turkey freely. Isn't this a clearest indication which side is genocidal and hateful?

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
December 21, 2012 at 1:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Beck"
If you overcome the laziness to scroll up and read previous comments in which I supplied sources (proof). So who is the deluded one? The one defending a country as truthful whichj practices censorship and human rights violations to this very day? Yes it is quite clear who the hateful, genocidal one is "Beck" .

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 21, 2012 at 7:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"An Occupy-style movement has taken off in Istanbul. The ostensible issue of conflict is modest. Protesters started gathering in the park on 27 May, to oppose its demolition as part of a redevelopment plan. But this is more than an environmental protest. It has become a lightning conductor for all the grievances accumulated against the government."

http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/...

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 31, 2013 at 11:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

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