Sour Grapes in Wine Country?

As far as I can tell, Pappas is legally challenging **EVERY SINGLE** vote in the 18 UCSB/IV precincts... that is an **INCREDIBLE** effort to disenfranchise UCSB/IV.

The evidence? He lost by 806 votes (see above).

His press release says he lost by 3057 votes in the 18 UCSB/IV precincts. His press release says if `the contested votes' in those 18 precincts are determined to be invalid, Pappas will win the election by approximately 2250 votes'.

2250+806=3056, within 1 of 3057.

But there is no way he can *only* challenge the 3057 votes that comprise IV/UCSB's margin against him.

He must challenge *EVERY SINGLE VOTE* in the UCSB/IV precincts.

That is an astounding and incredible effort for disenfranchisement of the entire UCSB/IV area.

The domicile rules for voting are fairly clear:

349. (a) "Residence" for voting purposes means a person's domicile.

(b) The domicile of a person is that place in which his or her habitation is fixed, wherein the person has the intention of remaining, and to which, whenever he or she is absent, the person has the intention of returning. At a given time, a person may have only one domicile.
(c) The residence of a person is that place in which the person's habitation is fixed for some period of time, wherein he or she does not have the intention of remaining.

2021. (a) A person who leaves his or her home to go into another state or precinct in this state for temporary purposes merely, with the intention of returning, does not lose his or her domicile.
(b) A person does not gain a domicile in any precinct into which he or she comes for temporary purposes merely, without the intention of making that precinct his or her home.

Could a dorm room possibly be a domicile?

Pappas is not challenging only those who live in dorm rooms, he is challenging every single IV/UCSB vote, including the thousands of IV residents who have families and live permanently in IV.

But yes, a dorm room can absolutely qualify as a domicile. Habitation of 9 months qualifies as fixed.

If Pappas doesn't want IV/UCSB residents' votes to count, Pappas should argue to excuse IV/UCSB residents from paying all local taxes. But Pappas wants the money from IV/UCSB residents to subsidize Santa Ynez, while denying IV/UCSB residents the right to vote.

I remember Thor Nis Christiansen, the mass murderer from Solvang who kidnaped and killed IV women. Christiansen symbolizes the north-of-the-mountains attitude of some toward IV.

An intense light.

With fine
manners the
mask of a child
invites me to
cry, when the
moonlight
appears; I hear
a blackbird
near the sound
of a small lamp,
and everything
shines like
a terse sensibility.

Francesco Sinibaldi

"I remember Thor Nis Christiansen, the mass murderer from Solvang who kidnaped and killed IV women. Christiansen symbolizes the north-of-the-mountains attitude of some toward IV." -snugspout-

No "snugspout", Thor Nis Christiansen was a defective psycopath who would blamed his murder spree on the fact that he had gun, *not* on his north-county residency. (Yes, I remember it well)

What is sad is that your previous paragraph was making sense until you came up with this bizarre and hateful comment.

An intense light.

With fine
manners the
mask of a child
invites me to
cry, when the
moonlight
appears; I hear
a blackbird
near the sound
of a small lamp,
and everything
shines like
a terse sensibility.

=Francesco Sinibaldi-

Ditto!

Well, billclausen, I disagree. There is a lot of hate toward IV north of the mountains. Christiansen, if you recall, was pulled over by the County Sheriffs with a gun in his car that matched the caliber of the murder weapon. He was let go. He didn't match the profile of crazed IV hippie that the Sheriffs wanted.

This current incident is a manifestation of the same hate-IV emotion that exists in our County, north of the Mountains.

Oh please snugspout, put down the latte and calm down. You're too spun on caffeine...or maybe your own reflection.

I lived in IV back when it WAS IV, not just a massive dorm for rich, drunk Useless-B brats as it is today. I have a lot of fond memories of my days in IV when it was an actual community.

I now live in and LOVE Solvang. It's peaceful. It's quiet. I know I can walk down the streets at any hour of the day or night and not worry about being mugged, stabbed or shot.

Can't say the same for SB or IV.

And you know it's true.

I assure you snugspout, that at least three quarters of the people who live in the Santa Ynez Valley are not serial killers. If you don't believe me, check statistics. I could be a little off, but I'm basically right.

On the other hand, there does seem to be more stabbings and violence in S.B. doesn't there?

I find IV terrific... never been mugged, no sense of danger. Sure, there is no lack of drunken affluent irresponsible kids, but I don't think that was any different in the late 1960's. I remember after the bank burning the civic interest was negligible, with nearly empty meetings on the future of IV. Carmen used to piss and moan about the lack of participation in the 1970's.

And today there are fabulous groups too... Chilla Vista, for example. In fact, the place is way more safe and way more community oriented than the 1970's, when it seemed like very 6 months there was a new body on the beach, or a death by heroin overdose. The fact that external criticism of IV has stayed about the same or increased only indicates the irrationality of the criticizers.

billclausen, you exaggerate, I've never said anybody currently in the Santa Ynez Valley is a serial killer. But Christiansen does symbolize the hate-IV attitude that is common in conversation and in political events I've attended north of the mountains. Christiansen is an appropriate symbol for the drastically negative vibe toward IV.

Looks to me like the small numbers of spoiled IVers grow up to become Nancy Crawford Halls, POLOs and POSYs, as well as Steve Pappas. They are entirely self-centered and couldn't see another person's viewpoint no matter what. There is a sense of self-entitlement that goes way beyond wanting to stumble down Del Playa in search of a** and extends all the way to organizing legal suits and making $100,000 political donations.

and the "Most Offensive Comment Ever Posted" award goes to...Snugspot! Please seek professional help, immediately.

mr_helpful, this person is well-known for bizarre and offensive behavior on this website. He/she has two accounts, "snugspout" and "sevendolphins," and regularly posts hateful rants under both names.

"billclausen, you exaggerate, I've never said anybody currently in the Santa Ynez Valley is a serial killer. But Christiansen does symbolize the hate-IV attitude that is common in conversation and in political events I've attended north of the mountains. Christiansen is an appropriate symbol for the drastically negative vibe toward IV."

snugspout: First of all, if you ARE "sevendolphins" I must confess your post about the bridge on 154 as "eightdolphins" agreeing with everything sevendolphins posted was original and funny, so I give you credit for having an original sense of humor. Also, who is "Carmen"? Now onto my main point.

Of course you never said anyone in the Santa Ynez Valley is a mass murderer, but you connected the mindset of those who live in the Valley to a mass murderer while failing to make a direct connection as to why Thor Nis Christiansen's having grown up in the Valley is of merit--apart from the fact that the reason he slipped through the authorities' hands may have been due to their bias toward a clean cut guy from the valley.

You imply that those in the valley are hateful, and if you think I'm going to let you post that without commenting on it then you are mistaken. It's no different from people who claim that White people should apologize for slavery even if they despise slavery, all the while claiming it's all about "diversity" and "tolerance". No snugspout, your comments DO imply that those who live in the Valley are somehow connected to the acts of Christensen just as those who say White folk should apologize for slavery are saying that all White are guilty of slavery and you know it, so don't try to back out of what you said; take responsibility for it and move on.

Sorry snugspout: This isn't the hallowed halls of academia and I'm not some terrified first-year college kid getting shouted down by my professor simply because I question the party line taught by some so-called expert.

Yes, I'm a terrorizer of everyone who disagrees with me! I'll send electrons to your screen that will enter your mind as light and cause you to dance the jitterbug!

There is most definitely a hateful attitude toward IV north of the mountains... that the taxes paid in IV are like tourist dollars and should not be spent on IV itself. Joni Gray led a nice little witch-hunt over supposed County subsidies of the IVRPD and and found... nothing.

North-of-the-moutainers routinely claim that IV residents should not vote in local elections... as if their lives are not influenced by the giant sucking sound of IV tax dollars to the sparsely populated areas of the County. Pappas now and particularly Crawford-Hall have indeed been spewing this hatred.

I think, billclausen, you are exaggerating and taking great offense to evade the central point... north-of-the Mountains County residents are perpetually upset about IV, and they don't look inward and ask themselves, `Don't IV residents as taxpayers deserve the same rights we claim? Haven't students lived in IV/UCSB since 1954, and won't they be here in 2058? Aren't their interests as legitimate as ours?'

Christiansen is an appropriate symbol because law enforcement and others never dreamed a nice Solvang boy could be a serial killer; they never looked inward. Christiansen was apprehended by LA law enforcement.

It is not that Solvangers and north-of-the mountain types should apologize for Christiansen. It is that they should wake up and acknowledge that IV is a legitimate part of this County, and they should acknowledge that the flaws of the type found IV (or worse) exist everywhere throughout our County.

Carmen Lodise.

For proof that snugspout and sevendolphins are the same person, check this out:

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/...

Oops.

As stated before, your point about I.V. people getting what they pay for in taxes--or not having to pay tiaxes if they arent' allowed to vote in local elections--is valid. But applying the lax methods of law enforcement to make your point is ridiculous, and I'm sure eightdolphins would agree.

I would add that there is no proof that there are actually people who would post under more than one name in these blogs.

billclausen: As always, I agree with you. You might say that I feel as though I've known you all my life.

Uhh... the treatment of the Christiansen case was emblematic of the attitude of north-of-the-mountains to IV.

Here's a quote from Nancy Crawford-Hall:

``What business do they have "stuffing the ballot boxes" in an area they (IV/UCSB residents) don't live in and should not have any input into local decisions?'' --Dec. 4 `On the Ranch' Column

http://www.santaynezvalleyjournal.com...

That is not from anyone involved in law enforcement, billclausen. I've many times heard severe denigration of IV residents from north-of-the mountains folks.

And now a lawsuit that seeks to throw out every single IV vote, as I detailed in the first post.

It is no exaggeration at all that some northerners hate IV. And Thor Nis Christiansen is a suitable symbol for those haters, not because the northerners want to act like him, but because both County opinion and bureaucracy believed his victims were somehow the consequence of `the mess in IV' (hitchhiking in particular, which was never proved) and not inappropriate behavior of a northerner.

Sheesh, sevendolphins is my partner, as I've said before. Didn't log off carefully once. But I can agree they are a bit wacky, particularly about the Cold Spring Bridge.

Sheesh, sevendolphins is my partner, as I've said before. Didn't log off carefully once.
============

Busted yet again. Yes, you did say that before ... but with your "sevendolphins" account, not your "snugspout" account:

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/...

Snug/7dolphins, I live in I.V. (20 yrs. in the same place) & can say that the attitude towards north county is as equal in hatred as what you claim the north county to be toward I.V. or even more.
The question is when will it stop or better yet, is everybody like the stereotypes portrayed by both sides?
There's just as many of my neighbors w/ a holier than thou attitude who claim to be enviros by whom they vote for in an election, but litter the place w/ cigarette butts, break bottles on the street, break off rear view mirrors off cars, publicly urinate, throw garbage all over the place & the list goes on.
Wonder why I pack a Tippmann 98 or Pirahna tuned @ 300 fps & have a Ghillie suit?
Then there's the "you're too old to live in I.V." crowd who thinks that they're exempt from the rules of the county & think they can beat up my mailbox (a FEDERAL offense by the way) & not suffer the consequences that I'm entitled as a taxpayer to pursue.
These are the 1's that claim to be "liberal" in politics, but fail to realize that by making a comment like that they sound just as bad as those people who would stop @ nothing to prevent a Black or Latino family from moving into "their" neighborhood.
Is the description I offered representative of EVERYBODY in Isla Vista? In a word, No, but that's why we get painted as a ghetto, the attitudes of some.
Bottom line: People who suck know no geography, they're a demographic & a lousy 1 @ that :) henry

Well, hank, most folks I know here in IV don't even know the North County exists. Granted there is some dislike, but I don't think it has ever gotten so strong as to result in a lawsuit.

Kratatoa, as I *said* to my partner sevendolphins. They *typed* something about into these pages. Last I checked, there is no audio blogging here.

Snug, I seem to recall the case back in 1988 or 1992 (I believe, can't remember off hand) where Bill Wallace used the same tactic to oust Willy Chamberlain from the District Supe seat. I believe it came down to 6 disputed votes.
So as you can see, it (recount) ain't a tactic isolated to the north county & it ain't new or original.
As for the average population of I.V. not knowing of the north county, true, except up until election time when the "machine" gets going & the "R" word (rednecks) starts to get used in political propaganda, next thing you know, lemmings to the sea.
But the truth to the matter is that when they get to UCSB they don't know nada about north county & the political implications. That is a learned bahavior, complments of La Maquina" :) henry

6:34pm: "Sheesh, sevendolphins is my partner, as I've said before."

9:14pm: "Kratatoa, as I *said* to my partner sevendolphins. They *typed* something about into these pages. Last I checked, there is no audio blogging here."

==========

Could this get any more pathetic?

No, SevenSmugs, a serial killer is not an appropriate symbol of anyone's displeasure at being gerrymandered in with a politically opposite area. Get over it. Sure, conservatives in Solvang don't like being grouped with liberals in IV. I'm sure they don't want to kill them though. Rational debate ends when you compare anyone to a serial killer. Usually it's Hitler and Stalin, but you got creative. Sorry, no marks for that. Creative but dumb.

"Rational debate ends when you compare anyone to a serial killer. Usually it's Hitler and Stalin..." -Rich-

To illustrate Rich's point, check out the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's...

"Kratatoa, as I *said* to my partner sevendolphins. They *typed* something about into these pages. Last I checked, there is no audio blogging here."

I don't know what to think since I left the pod

Well, Stalin and Hitler were bigger deals than Christiansen. I made no comparison to Stalin and Hitler.

Hank/Henry, I don't think there was a legal challenge by the Wallace campaign over 18 precincts; the magnitude was far less than Pappas' current challenge. Wallace at the time lived in the Santa Ynez Valley, BTW, although I agree he had a lot of supporters in IV. I agree there is huge ignorance of the North County in IV, and even characterizations as rednecks. But I've never heard nor read (say in the Nexus) a comment like that of Crawford-Halls, and I've heard verbally a lot worse from northerners; never even heard analogous comments in IV.

Totally agree that their is a machine that herds IV/UCSB students into the enviro/left position. Funny part is, Pappas did *way, way better* than any non-machine candidate in years. He got something like 25-30% of the IV/UCSB vote; Firestone got 5-10%. But it is Pappas who is making a wholesale suit against thousands of IV votes.

And, BTW, there is analogous `machine' activity through civic orgs in the North County (Cattleman's, etc)... lots of money and organization. Little different than the IV machine. That is simply democracy.

Yuk yuk Kratatoa, you get a blue ribbon for pathetic.

I would love to see a machine that herds people into the enviro/left position. I think a machine like that could be very useful...

Snug, the magnitude of the act wasn't the point, the point was the act itself. There was a legal challenge to the validity of votes, I'll stop by the Nexus office & check the actual numbers since their online archives don't go that far back.
I'd try to remember, but too many bumps on the noggin from years of stupid human tricks.
True, Pappas did get a lot of support from the UCSB contingent, but remember that the winning candidtae in that community is whoever gets the blessing of the I.V. machine.
Nothing wrong w/ this, as it is democracy in action. The thing that still bugs me about either (I.V./north county) machine is the attempt to herd in voters on disinformation & name calling. That ain't democracy, just downright loathsome & clouds the issues :) henry

6:34pm: "Sheesh, sevendolphins is my partner, as I've said before."

9:14pm: "Kratatoa, as I *said* to my partner sevendolphins. They *typed* something about into these pages. Last I checked, there is no audio blogging here."

=======

So 7snugs, your latest attempt to save face here is to claim that you make a distinction between the words *said* and *typed*, right?

In that case, your story now is that you *said* to your partner, "sevendolphins, you're my partner." Because I guess he didn't know that before or something. Then he came here and *typed* it. Is that how we should interpret what you *typed*?

And how do you explain your use of the word "said" to mean "typed" earlier in this thread? For example, you *typed*: "I've never said anybody currently in the Santa Ynez Valley is a serial killer."?

Just give it up, 7snugs. You're busted.

Spacey:"I would love to see a machine that herds people into the enviro/left position."
Spacey, we got such a machine in Isla Vista/UCSB. The ONLY problem is that the herding is done in a way that doesn't really benefit the process because a lot of positions are based on rhetoric, disinformation & staus quo thinking.
Some use the machine to benefit themselves rather than the environment they claim to want to protect. More about self preservation that the general good.
This is what has hurt 3rd District politics for quite some time on both sides of the aisle.
The best thing to do is vote w/ what you know, let the talking heads go their way :) henry

Hank/Henry you are of course on target. But I do think the current lawsuit goes too far.

Yuk, yuk, Kratatoa. 2 people, one who is sevendolphins ( my partner) another who is me. Deal with it.

I did "deal with it", 7snugs. I conclusively demonstrated that you have two different accounts and you pretend to be two different people on this site. I've caught you at this multiple times, and other people have also caught you at the same game. Maybe it's time for a little honesty...

Snug, I agree it is going too far. I also believe any time the voice of the public in the form of a vote stands to be overturned by recounts or courts, well, that is going too far as well.
What's worse is the fact that the general message sent is that there is zero trust/confidence in the American & public process of voting. That right there is pathetic.
It is almost as if to say the 1's causing the problems (candidates) are blaming the public for the problems the candidates cause.
Here's a suggestion for the County Clerk's office: Charge the party that wants the recount w/ the cost of said process. I guarantee you'll see an end to all the "I didn't get my way, so I'll challenge the results" mentalities.
So we wonder why voter apathy is high? :) henry

Spacey:"I would love to see a machine that herds people into the enviro/left position."

Hank: " we got such a machine in Isla Vista/UCSB."

Given the ideology of the majority of academics I've met, I would have to concur with Hank. I would also add that one does not have to be a drone for the Democratic Party in order to have a sense of environmental consciousness, as well as an anti-imperialist policy. (Remember boys and girls, Obama has a sixteen-month war plan for Afghanistan, and it ain't about handing out toothbrushes and toys to little kids)

How ironic it is that mainstream educationional facilities do not encourage debate, as well as the questioning of the world around you but rather adherence to groupthink.

Bill, I agree that academia should encourage debate. UCSB does encourage debate, but if you're not speaking on the proper side of the aisle you get interrupted, cut off, called names, yelled @, etc.
I can't tell you how many speakers of opposing points of view have been shouted down during their time on the dais because of the groupthink phenomena. It is WAY scary :) henry

Well I can certainly agree with Bill and Hank that Savior Obama is a war hawk and groupthink phenomena is dangerous on both sides of the aisle.

Getting back to the point of the article above: Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the Republicans so concerned about the integrity of the electoral system suddenly became interested in the rigged general elections of 2000 and 2004? Dishonest voting technology companies such as Diebold and Sequoia continue to operate despite plenty of evidence that they consirpired with the RNC in both 2000 and 2004 and directly with the White House in the months leading up to the John Kerry "defeat". Yet, the mainstream media and public at large are mostly clueless about how corrupt and unreliable our system remains.

Why is this important? If George W. Bush had not been allowed to illegally occupy the Oval Office, clearly he would not have been in the position to do the damage he did.

Loopnt:"Well I can certainly agree with Bill and Hank that Savior Obama is a war hawk and groupthink phenomena is dangerous on both sides of the aisle"
HAHAHAHA! That has me laughing. Good 1 my friend, REAL good :) henry

The academics at UCSB really could give a flying fig over what their undergraduate students do in local elections. The thought that IV is somehow under the thumb of academics is a huge balloon of flatis... 90% of the academics inside UCSB would need a map to find IV.

But democracy is not a think-for-yourself activity, it is, unfortunately, a team sport. Machines win elections, and has been ever thus. The North Santa Barbara County perplex is: why haven't the northerners ever figured how to add IV to their machine. It is their hatred that gets in the way. Other way around: Wallace, Marshall, Buttny, and Farr all move up (or live up) in Santa Ynez. Steve Pappas/Nancy Crawford-Hall would have chopsticks driven in their ears before moving to IV.

Can't conclusively demonstrate something that ain't true, Kratatoa. But then you live in an alternate reality, I guess.

Sorry about that, but I am still laughing. HAd to hit the restroom after that 1.
Empty, you bring up an interesting, yet countering point. We all know about the Diebold/Sequoia issue, it's been pressed many a time since 2000.
But here's where I get lost. Most Bush haters BELIEVE that Dubya is a stupid man. Yet, somehow, some way, he's got enough smarts to accomplish such lofty goals as steal an election?
I know he's surrounded by a bunch of sycophants, but they're made out to be dumb as well. Where's the genious(es) behind the plot?
In 2004, the only 1 who cost John Kerry the election was, you guessed it, John Kerry.
The flip-flop man himself, he decided that having academics speak for him was the way to go. NOT!
See, when academics talk @ (not "to" or "w/") the general public, they show that they don't know how to relate to the average person.
The message they sent was this: "John Kerry is the candidate we support & if you don't vote for him, you're stupid." Nice way to win minds.
Here's what middle America said in return: "We all may not be as edumecated as ya'll seem to be, but we sure as heck know when someone's calling us stupid!"
As for the 2000 election, well, let me say as a former Florida resident, Florida is WHACK!
Don't know if it's the humidity or the alligator meat, maybe it's the low lying marshlands called the Everglades, but Florida is behind schedule on many fronts & voting is 1 of many.
I have to say, it was truly a disgrace to the electoral process how it all came down to be, no doubt about that, I'm w/ you 1,000% on that matter.
But as far as a wide-reaching Republican conspiracy to "steal" the election, well, consider who was being dealt w/ (emphasis on the W).
There's definately a lot of questions I'd have for the RNC, Diebold & Sequoia, but the bigger questions I have are for the American public itself.
But you definately raise a good (actually GREAT) issue & I believe what you're saying is that in order to maintain democracy (as we know it) it is the job of ALL Americans (regardless of party affiliation) who believe in the Constitution to remain vigilant.
I hope a new age is coming & that some sort of honesty is maintained in politics. It is so unfortunate how shorrt those periods last :) henry

Can't conclusively demonstrate something that ain't true, Kratatoa. But then you live in an alternate reality, I guess.
========

So are you going to answer my questions from my 11:01am post?

"Why is this important? If George W. Bush had not been allowed to illegally occupy the Oval Office, clearly he would not have been in the position to do the damage he did." -emptynewsroom-

Perhaps *he* would not have done the damage, but someone else might have. There are a lot of Bush-enabling Democrats in power.

Hank: The bottom line is that the integrity of our elections is hugely suspect and it has been proven with mountains of evidence that "results" can be easily changed to favor the candidate of choice. That is the ONLY issue worth talking about in the context of the U.S. electoral system. Yes, the GOP and RNC are typically the cheaters (as has been documented in numerous films and by many researchers), but it is a bi-partisan issue. Anyone who doubts these simple facts is just ignoring the truth and not contributing to finding a solution. Why do some people refuse to accept the fact that electoral fraud in the form of voter caging and voter suppression is part of the American political landscape? Don't be frozen by fear!

Bill Clausen: Stop stalking me by always posting comments in response to mine that profess that the Dems are as corrupt and evil as the GOP. I don't happen to think they are (quite) as bad and your strategy seems primarily to somehow diffuse the issue that the Republicans are hurting the country and work against the interests of the average voter and taxpayer, which is exactly what they do. Why do you care if I lump the Dems into the same trash heap as the Republicans or not?

When someone leaves a former domicile, with no intent of returning, and moves into a dorm room, the dorm room is that person's domicile.

"Bill Clausen: Stop stalking me by always posting comments in response to mine that profess that the Dems are as corrupt and evil as the GOP. I don't happen to think they are (quite) as bad and your strategy seems primarily to somehow diffuse the issue that the Republicans are hurting the country and work against the interests of the average voter and taxpayer, which is exactly what they do" -emptynewsroom-

emptynewsroom: A cursory look at my previous posts will show the bloggers and moderators here that I do not focus on you in particular, so your accusation against me is a cheap (or perhaps paranoid) lie. I do however, have a history of challenging the predominantly Democratic Party voting bloggers/Santa Barbara populace by telling them that they need to think critically, and not emotionally.

The fact is you and I have hardly exchanged any posts so your accusation of stalking is comical. Besides that, I think the ongoing war between AShaw and Binky is far more interesting to most who blog, and *they* can take it with a grain of salt and a laugh so my advice to you is "get over yourself."

I remember you posted a while ago saying that people should check the previous posts of those who blog here to see their real agenda, and I think that was sound advice so I checked some of your comments and from what I see, you're just another shill for the Democrats. I don't buy into the "progressive" label, any more than I buy into the "independent conservative" label, since almost all of those people who use those labels run for whoever the Democrats and Republicans nominate.

The truth is I'm a political malcontent who can occasionally put several syllables together at a time and have dared to challenge the lemming-like groupthink of the S.B. Democratic Voting Machine and I'm revealing that the emperor has no clothes. Of course you don't like it, so the old attack-the-charecter tactic is pulled out.

For the record: I have never voted for a Republican presidential candidate, and the last Democratic presidential candidate I voted for was Dukakis, so you can't accuse me of being a shill for the G.O.P.

I will continue to annoy people by pointing out that their Republican icons are *not* for small government or freedom, and that their Democratic gods are very much in bed with the Republicans as long as they refuse to understand that these D.C. nabobs are for the most part sleeping in the same bed.

Sorry emptynewsroom, but as I said before, this is not a college classroom, and I'm not some terrified eighteen year-old freshman being shouted down by my left-leaning professor for daring to question the status quo.

Maybe he meant Burl Klassen as the stalker? (hahaha!) :) henry

Maybe he meant Burl Klassen as the stalker? (hahaha!) :) -henry-

"He"...or "She"(?)

"Maybe he meant Burl Klassen as the stalker? (hahaha!) :) henry"

hank and billclausen are showing what cruel, mean individuals they are. Great, now *I'm* being called a "stalker". I suppose the next thing you people will accuse me of is the offense of being billclausen's alter ego.

I put up with enough abuse as it is but now hank calls me a stalker and billclausen turns around and steals my name.

"I put up with enough abuse as it is but now hank calls me a stalker and billclausen turns around and steals my name."

burlklassen: I know just what you're going through.

Me too.

HAHAHAHA! This makes my morning! HAHAHAHA! :) henry (laughing WAY too hard)

Do you know why we dolphins have taken over the Independent blogs?...Answer: Because there are so many of us.

We're especially effective because we all have exactly the same opinion on everything.

Bill Clausen: As usual, a brilliant comeback, but seriously the only reason you might think I'm a "shill" for the Dems is that I am a progressive so therefore my ideals appear "liberal" or "Democratic" to you and geniuses like AShaw.

Why I'm left-leaning is simple: I've seen firsthand how countries with better government and a more adult attitude towards blending socialism with capitalism deliver superior services to their citizens and better value to taxpayers. I'll point out again for anyone not paying attention: the U.S. is the ONLY western industrialized nation without a national healthcare system nor a national public education system. How does the penchant of some to hate government hurt us? The response to Katrina would not have been so poor in any other NATO country. CORPSES floating down the street of a major metropolitan city -- unthinkable in Western Europe. No wonder they think we're barbarians!

Our rankings among nations throughout the world in terms of quality of life, infant mortality, literacy, high school scores, acess to secondary education, freedom of the press, personal savings, etc. etc. are typically in the high 20s and 30s. Look it up.

Yes, I blame the Republicans and a co-opted mainstream media for much of this and although the Dems are far from what they could be and should be, right now they are all we've got. So I encourage you to continue to be pessimistic about our political landscape but at the same time no one deserves the scorn of the public more than the GOP criminals that largely have brought this nation to the brink of economic ruin, ridicule around the world and disastrous military interventions, not to mention a destroyed middle class on the verge of slipping into poverty. The Republican strategy of trying to win arguments and hijack public debates with their "heads I win, tails you lose" tomfoolery is over.

emptynewsroom: Now you're starting to make sense. I will address what you said.

The U.S. is certainly an example of a country blessed abundantly with resources, yet has squandered those resources. I share your anti-interventionist approach, and it goes without saying that a strong middle-class/educated populace is the way to go. I don't see why a person with an ability for math, business, music, whatever, should have to pay for college when it is in the interest of the state to turn out as many able-minded people as possible.
I am also opposed to the drug war as I see the failure in prohibition. So far, my views would hardly be classified as right-wing views.

Where you and I differ is that I am more radical in my approach to these matters. You speak of your lack of education in this country, and with just cause you speak, but on the very thorny and third-rail issue of bilingual education it has been the Democrats who from I have seen that were supportive of this. Since this is the party of the "man-on-the-street" would it not behoove them to recognize that literacy in the language of the land is the best weapon against racism and oppression? On this issue, which I will not belabor in this post, the evidence speaks for itself: If a person is not exposed to a language, they won't learn it well, and there were eighth-graders at Franklin school who despite attending that school from the first grade were still not English-proficient--all the while the left-leaning education boards saw this going on and continued this policy.

Let us not forget that Bill Clinton attacked Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq and The Sudan, and from what I was told, all within a seven-month period. Who was in power during the Vietnam war? Is Barack talking of ending the war on drugs?

All of that having been said, Barack Obama has been duly elected, and thank God, in a manner devoid of the controversy that sullied the last two elections. He won decisively by a mandate of the American people. He also has a lot of Democrats in the congress and senate to back him so now the Democrats can't say they are being hindered by Bush. I hope he makes positive change, and not just cosmetic improvements. That having been said, I have a strong taste of cynicism that we will have the same old status quo, but I hope my cynicism is proven wrong.

On the other hand, if we still are in this war at the end of his administration, who will his supporters have to blame? Time will tell.

You speak of your lack of education in this country, should have read "you speak of THE lack of education in this country"

7snugs "serial killer" comment is featured in the print edition of the Independent ...