Reading, Writing, and Original Sin

An Evangelical Group Sets its Sights on Santa Barbara’s Public Elementary School Kids

Thursday, May 7, 2009

By Katherine Stewart

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It was during recess at one of Santa Barbara’s adorable, sun-spangled elementary schools that Ashley*, a sprightly 6-year-old, approached her first-grade classmate Emma* near the swing sets and delivered the bad news.

“You can’t go to heaven.”

Ashley had already determined that Emma, the only Jewish girl in her class, did not believe in Jesus.

Emma protested, but Ashley persisted. “If you don’t believe in Jesus, you are going to hell.”

Their teacher overheard the increasingly heated exchange. When class resumed, she asked everyone to pay attention. People from different religious backgrounds, she explained, have very different perspectives on certain kinds of issues.

Emma, feeling good that she had stood her ground, seemed content with the result. But Ashley was crushed.

“You mean they lied to me right here in school?!” she began to cry. “Because that’s what they taught me here!

How can they lie?”

Barry Bruner

The Good News Club aims to use afterschool facilities as soon as possible after the bell rings, which maximizes the possibility of contact with non-participating students. It also has the effect of making it difficult for very young children to distinguish between the Good News Club and the other classes they take in school.

It turns out that Ashley had reason to be confused. She is a student at one of four Santa Barbara public elementary schools, including Ellwood Elementary School, Hollister Elementary School, Foothill Elementary School, and the Vieja Valley School, that last year opened their doors to an afterschool program known as the “Good News Club.” The club aims to convert young children to their form of Christianity and to encourage them to spread the word to fellow students. The club generally holds its sessions in school facilities, in most cases immediately after regular classes end.

I took an interest in the story of Ashley and Emma when I discovered that the Good News Club had been given permission to start another group, this one at the school my daughter attended, Cold Spring School.

•••

Cold Spring School is one of those places that make Santa Barbara the envy of just about every sensible American to the east of Ojai. In fact, when my husband and I moved to Santa Barbara from New York four years ago, the prospect of sending our children to such a delightful, well-run, high-achieving neighborhood public school was at the top of the list of attractions.

The school community turns out to be far more culturally diverse than one might guess from a glance at the winding, semi-rural roads or the intimidating local real estate listings. After school, the playing fields teem with the offspring of recovering hippies from Mountain Drive; of academics affiliated with Westmont College; of small-business pioneers; surf punks; and members of the Montecito social mafia. The parent body includes Catholics, Unitarians, agnostics, atheists, Jews, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Buddhists, Muslims, Episcopalians, and devotees of the jewel-like Vedanta Temple that graces a hillside not far the school. Somewhere between a quarter to a half of the parents would probably call themselves Evangelicals, though since no one keeps the statistics, no one really knows.

The diversity of the Cold Spring community, far from dividing the school, always seemed to me to be a source of strength. When the Tea Fire destroyed the homes of 16 Cold Spring families and three staff and seriously damaged those of another dozen-plus, it was no surprise to anyone that the community came together with quiet determination, organizing fundraising and volunteer shifts, sharing their homes, and working with children to help them cope with the trauma.

But on the afternoon in January that I approached the school’s tiny administration office to find out more about the Good News Club program, the familiar scene on the playground suddenly started to seem alien. As I watched the girls perform their soccer drills, I began to wonder if I had been completely wrong about the place after all.

Barry Bruner

The afterschool world at Cold Spring had hitherto consisted of basketball, karate, dance, and other physical fitness activities. In this context, a sectarian religious group that seeks to recruit the very young stuck out like a barstool in a bunny cage. And so, I confess, I became just a little paranoid. Was a group of parents plotting to turn our public school into a religious school? A rumor that a teacher had volunteered her classroom for the group particularly disturbed me. Was she part of the plot?

I had already discovered that at least some other parents shared my concerns. But the stories I heard back only made things worse. I learned that some kids had exchanged nasty, religious-themed emails, and that others had not been invited to certain birthday parties because they belonged to the “wrong” faith.

One parent, who belongs to a religious group that tends to receive unflattering press coverage, asked me, “Can you imagine if we tried to set up a similar program? It would be all over the national news.” Another parent lashed out at me for raising the issue in such a direct fashion. “Don’t be so Jewish,” she snapped — which I guess she felt she was allowed to say because she is Jewish, too. Another mom, an Evangelical Christian whom I count as a dear friend, said she thought that the Good News people “really, really mean well,” but that the group was “not right for our school.”

The Good News Club, I was sure, was going to be bad news for the school. Our community, so recently united around the catastrophe of a fire, seemed poised to fall apart over its religious differences.

“The group is benign,” an administrator cheerily said when I arrived at the office. Was she part of the plot, too? I requested to speak with our principal, Dr. Bryan McCabe, but he wasn’t available. Tall and amiable, Dr. McCabe has guided the school judiciously and successfully with an avuncular, as opposed to patriarchal, style. When we spoke later by phone, I suggested that he should send out a letter to parents explaining the decision to start a Good News Club program at the school, which he promptly did.

“Had we rejected [the Good News Club’s] application to use the facilities, we would have exposed ourselves to a potential lawsuit by the sponsoring organization,” he wrote. In subsequent conversations with him and other members of the school board, I found no one willing to say that they had invited the group into the school. Everyone assured me that the sole motivation for the decision to allow them in was, just as our principal indicated, the fear of litigation. But could this really be true? How exactly could things come to such a pass — that a 190-student public elementary school should tread with fear before a group that calls itself the Good News Club?

•••

Other people drink tea or go jogging; I like to deal with my obsessions through research. In my research, I discovered that Good News Clubs are sponsored by the Child Evangelism Fellowship (CEF), a worldwide organization founded in Warrenton, Missouri, more than 70 years ago. The declared mission of the CEF is to produce conversion experiences in very young children, and thus to equip them to “witness” for other children. “I was told that a child at five, if properly instructed, can as truly believe as anyone,” said Mr. J. Irvin Overholtzer, who founded CEF in 1937. “I saw that if there was any truth in this statement, there was a door of opportunity lying open before us.” As of 2008, according to CEF Vice President of U.S.A. Ministries Moises Esteves, there were approximately 3,410 Good News Clubs in public K-6 schools around the country.

The CEF labels the Good News Club program as “Bible Study,” but the term “study” in this context is a euphemism for indoctrination in and practice of a particular religion. Once class begins, there is no pretense of analyzing the bible as a literary, cultural, or historical document. The program moves directly to the CEF’s stated purpose, which is “to evangelize boys and girls with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, disciple them in the Word of God, and establish them in a Bible-believing church for Christian living.”

The “Dark Page,” depicting the Garden of Eden, teaches children that they are born sinners.

Because the Good News Club seeks to reach children who in many cases are not old enough to read, a centerpiece of its program is the “wordless book,” a simple picture book intended to convey different Evangelical doctrines. The “Gold Page,” with a picture of a church and a cross, accompanies a lesson about heaven. The “Dark Page,” depicting the Garden of Eden, teaches children that they are born sinners. The “Green Page” details the methods children can use for personal growth, which include prayer, studying the bible, and sharing their beliefs with other children.

The Good News Club aims to use afterschool facilities as soon as possible after the bell rings. Aside from adding to the convenience for students and parents, this maximizes the possibility of contact with non-participating students. It also has the effect of making it difficult for very young children to distinguish between the Good News Club and the other classes they take in school.

The law currently prevents the group from holding classes during the school day, and it also requires that students obtain parental permission for participation. But the CEF has proved adept at finding ways to bend the rules around such restrictions. In one school, cheerful flyers announcing Good News Club-sponsored “parties” were posted three feet from the floor, at children’s eye-level. “There was a tremendous feeling of peer pressure to attend … and parents get that,” said a Wisconsin father. At Santa Barbara’s Foothill Elementary School, an administrator said, the Good News instructor was found approaching students and distributing leaflets just outside school grounds.

The instructor, she said, would enter the classroom as kindergarten was winding down and perform a roll call — effectively segregating the children by religious affiliation.

Often, instructors arrive on campus before the bell rings. When young children exit their regular classrooms, they find the instructor outside the door bearing treats and trailing balloons. In Valencia, California, a parent of a kindergartener reported that the Good News Club actually started 15 minutes prior to the end of her child’s school day. The instructor, she said, would enter the classroom as kindergarten was winding down and perform a roll call — effectively segregating the children by religious affiliation.

The club’s best promoters, as the CEF well understands, are the children themselves. Participating students are instructed to invite their classmates to join the group, and prizes are often given to those who succeed. The group’s focus, indeed, is concentrated on the “un-churched” children more than it is on those already in the fold. “If every public elementary school student in the United Sates could join a Good News Club,” the CEF Web site states, “we could revolutionize our culture in one generation!”

In short, the confusion Ashley evinced on the playground about just what her school was teaching her was no accident. It is built into the design of the Good News Club program. The average six-year-old cannot reliably distinguish between programs taught by his/her school and those taught in his/her school; and the CEF may be determined to make use of this fact in order to advance its religious aims.

The impression I had formed from my research on the CEF did not change with my first, indirect contacts with the group’s local representatives. When news of the kerfuffle among the parents at Cold Spring inevitably reached the CEF leaders in the Santa Barbara area, one parent told me, the group seemed to welcome the conflict. “That’s great publicity for us,” was the reaction of the woman responsible for the effort, or so I was told. When the Cold Spring School Board politely asked the CEF representatives whether they would be willing to hold their meetings at 4 p.m., instead of at 3 p.m., in order to avoid giving children the impression that the program was sponsored by the school, they refused. I was also told that when some Westmont-affiliated parents offered space for the group in the church right next door to the school, which was believed to be available and had better facilities, again the answer was no. Clearly, this was a group that knew what it wanted, and wasn’t going to shy away from a fight to get it.

•••

Principal McCabe’s letter did not succeed in heading off the religious war that threatened to erupt at Cold Spring School. The emails began to fly. My husband sent out a long screed detailing his reasons for opposing the group and offering some lessons on the history of church-and-state separation. In several of the letters that went out to the principal, parents seemed to feel the need to state their own religious affiliations in a defensive way, as if they believed that their arguments couldn’t stand up on their own merits. Interestingly, many of the objections seemed to come from the very community of Evangelicals CEF claims to represent.

Soon, it became clear that even taking a stand aroused many parents’ anxieties. One woman who expressed opposition to the group was berated by another family for “making a stink.” A neighbor said her exasperation over the issue tipped her decision to send her children to a private school.

The separation of religion and state in our little public school, I realized, is a matter of common sense. Without it, a peaceful community in the hills by the Pacific Ocean is liable to start looking like Germany in the 17th century: gearing up for the Thirty Years’ War.

But, as my husband kept pointing out, the separation of religion and state isn’t just a matter of common sense; it is part of the U.S. Constitution. The 1st Amendment, after all, prohibits the government from establishing religion, thus creating “a wall of separation between Church and State,” to use Thomas Jefferson’s words. Here we had a program, the Good News Club, which seemed intent on giving young kids the impression that their public school endorsed a particular religion. The question that wouldn’t go away was: If the school approves of such a program, knowing quite well that it will likely be misperceived by children as a school-sponsored program, how is that not an attempt to establish religion?

Barry Bruner

The effect of the Milford decision on the ground goes well beyond merely granting the club and similar groups a right to freedom from discrimination in the afterschool world. In fact, it lifts them into a higher, privileged status against possible competitors for the afterschool pie.

According to the Constitution, however, it is also true that there are only nine people in the world whose interpretation of that document makes any difference. In 2001, in Good News Club v. Milford Central School, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that to exclude the club on the grounds that it is a religious group is to discriminate against its particular religious viewpoint, in violation of 1st Amendment protections on the freedom of speech. The court also went out of its way to say that it could conceive of no basis for concern about a possible violation of the clause of the 1st Amendment that prohibits the establishment of religion.

The author of the court’s majority opinion was Clarence Thomas. It is perhaps interesting to note, in that respect, that in a recent speech before a school group, Justice Thomas reminisced fondly about his own school days when he would see “a flag and a crucifix in each classroom.”

Of course the Good News Club teaches morals; but it also teaches doctrines, such as the notion that if you don’t believe in Jesus you will go to hell — the kind of thing that soccer teams tend not to teach.

In order to give the court’s judgment in Milford some semblance of logical coherence, Thomas was compelled to re-imagine the activity of the Good News Club. The club, he said, was best viewed not as a religious group but as a discussion group engaged in speech about moral issues. Its exhortations on behalf of a particular morality, he reasoned, are no different from the encouragement to teamwork on the soccer field, for example. Justices Stevens, Ginsburg, and Souter, who all wrote dissenting opinions, found this logic preposterous. Of course the Good News Club teaches morals; but it also teaches doctrines, such as the notion that if you don’t believe in Jesus you will go to hell — the kind of thing that soccer teams tend not to teach. If taken seriously as a way to analyze religious cases, Souter concluded, the Milford decision “would stand for the remarkable proposition that any public school opened for civic meetings must be opened for use as a church, synagogue, or mosque.”

It soon became clear to me, however, that there was no point in arguing with the Supreme Court. “Milford is a bad decision,” a lawyer for Americans United for Separation of Church and State wrote to my husband. But it “is not going to be overturned right now. The lower courts will all follow it and the Supreme Court in its current configuration is not going to reverse itself on this issue.”

The effect of the Milford decision on the ground goes well beyond merely granting the club and similar groups (if any) a right to freedom from discrimination in the afterschool world. In fact, it lifts them into a higher, privileged status against possible competitors for the afterschool pie. Schools routinely exclude from their programs entire categories of activity — dancing, martial arts, whatever — for a variety of compelling reasons. In the wake of Milford, however, the one category that cannot be excluded for fear of litigation is religion. In other words, if your school lets in a lacrosse group, it will see itself as practically bound to let in the Good News Club; but if it lets in the club, there is nothing to stop it from excluding lacrosse.

The CEF has been able to achieve this enviable result thanks to the support it receives from a team of aggressive lawyers. CEF is represented by the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a powerful legal arm of the Evangelical movement. The ADF organization is extraordinarily active, interceding in the moral hot-button issues favored by the religious right. In the first three months of 2009, ADF was involved in more than 30 legal actions pertaining to its opposition to same-sex marriage and reproductive freedoms, its support for Christian groups and prayer in the schools, and other causes linked with a right-wing religious agenda.

“I’ve been following this issue for 20 years, and I hear stories all the time. If they get turned down for something or if the school says ‘no’ to something, they talk to their lawyers right away, who write a letter and say, ‘We’ll give you 30 days to change your mind or else we’ll see you in court.’” — Ira Lupu, professor of law at George Washington University.

With ADF’s backing, the CEF has sued school districts in New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, California, and other states, not only arguing for the right to assemble but also seeking, among other things, the right to send flyers home with students and to avoid paying usage fees. “CEF is very aggressive from a legal standpoint,” said Ira Lupu, professor of law at George Washington University. “I’ve been following this issue for 20 years, and I hear stories all the time. If they get turned down for something or if the school says ‘no’ to something, they talk to their lawyers right away, who write a letter and say, ‘We’ll give you 30 days to change your mind or else we’ll see you in court.’”

If the legal juggernaut of militant Evangelism makes the prospect of opposing the Good News Club daunting, the personal politics can be even more troubling for concerned parents. “I earn a living from my business in this community, and there are a lot of religious people here,” said the Wisconsin father who objects to the club’s activities in his school. “But I know that if I were to go public with my objections, I’d lose a lot of clients and my kids would get targeted.” A California mother added: “My kids are going to be in this school system for many years. I don’t want them getting blowback from their peers. And I don’t want them to be discriminated against by their teachers.” Another parent in New York said, “As a member of a religious minority, there is an additional sense of burden. You feel like your behavior is being scrutinized, you are worried about stereotyping. So you don’t speak up.” Even Emma’s parents wished to remain anonymous.

•••

As I discussed the Milford decision with experts and friends, a question kept recurring: Why aren’t other religious groups pursuing this opportunity to advance their goals with the 6-year-old set? If, as Justice Souter observed, the Milford ruling implies that all schools with afterschool programs must now make themselves available to serve as churches, synagogues, and mosques, then where are the synagogues and mosques, not to mention the churches of other Christian denominations?

I began calling around to various religious bodies in search of answers. Most of them seemed strangely accustomed to hanging out in left field with obsessive journalists.

“We don’t operate in the public schools because we don’t have a need for it,” said Kim Farah, a public relations representative for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. “We do have extensive youth programs, including sports, dances, and religious instruction, but we have plenty of chapels and church facilities to accommodate them.”

Various Islamic organizations also left me empty-handed. “I know of a few people who do it on a personal level, but I don’t know of any organization that does it, no,” said Habiba Ali at the Islamic Society of North America.

Next, I phoned the American Jewish Congress. “Many Jews, notwithstanding the Supreme Court decision and statute, believe that religion has no place in the public schools,” said Marc Stern, general counsel and acting executive director of the American Jewish Congress. “We therefore find it awkward to take advantage of legal authorities that would permit the operation of student groups in and around the public schools.”

Barry Bruner

‘During the last 20-30 years, Evangelical Christians have been interested in correcting what they believe is a wrong: the exclusion of religion from the public schools. So, in recent decades, they have organized to try to encourage more religious expression and evangelism in the schools.’ — Dr. Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the First Amendment Center

The only other faith-based group I could find that sponsored programs in the public schools is the Kabbalah Centre International, the organization popularized in the media by Madonna and her former husband, Guy Ritchie. The programs, called “Spirituality for Kids,” are said to be nondenominational; last year, there were nine of them in the Los Angeles area, while CEF has more than 400 groups in the L.A. area, according to the Liberty Counsel, a legal defense organization with a right-wing agenda. Nevertheless, the presence of the Kabbalah Centre’s programs in the public schools has sparked widespread outrage, and was the subject of a front-page article in the L.A. Times last March.

What all faiths sometimes do take advantage of is a legal decision dating from 1914 known as “released time.” This provides means by which a student who would otherwise be deprived of an opportunity to receive religious instruction to leave during the school day to learn about their religion at an off-campus site. CEF alone has established more than 700 released-time programs. Muslim and Jewish children, as well as youths belonging to other Christian denominations, take advantage of released-time programs to learn about and practice their faiths. But school boards have discretion in the creation of released-time programs for their students. And in all such instances, the religious instruction takes place off-campus.

As far as I could discern, it was basically the Evangelicals alone who organized religious groups in the public schools on a large scale. The question remained: Why?

•••

To understand the issue of religion in the schools further, I turned to the experts. “During the last 20-30 years, Evangelical Christians have been interested in correcting what they believe is a wrong: the exclusion of religion from the public schools,” said Dr. Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, a nonpartisan forum established for the study and exploration of free-expression issues, including freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion. “They feel that court decisions in the early 1960s excluding school prayer and bible reading were wrong. So, in recent decades, they have organized to try to encourage more religious expression and evangelism in the schools.”

The counterculture movement that began around the same time only exacerbated the sense among many Evangelicals that they were on the losing side of a major battle. The precursors of today’s religious right increasingly saw themselves as warriors in conflict with secular government and secular culture, trying to reclaim Christian America on behalf of “authentic” Americans. They believed they had been deprived of what was rightfully theirs by some arbitrary court rulings. They wanted to take history back to the 1950s or perhaps earlier, when religion — their religion — had a safe home in the public schools. Like the local CEF leader, or so I surmised, they believed that they were engaged in a long, defensive war against an aggressive, amoral foe.

Perhaps there is some truth to such an interpretation of history. Personally, I have my doubts. The Evangelical hegemony of America’s public schools first came under threat with the waves of Catholic immigrants and others who arrived on America’s shores in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The Scopes “Monkey” Trial, where the plan to teach creationism hit the wall of reality, took place in 1926. By the time of the Supreme Court decisions on school prayer, a very large part of the American public was committed to the idea that public schools were best reserved for secular values and science, and religion was to be practiced in the home and in houses of worship.

The Good News Club wasn’t defending itself in the context of an ongoing war. It had picked a fight right out of the clear blue sky of Santa Barbara. And the people with whom it picked that fight were the very people whom it claimed to represent.

In the microcosm of the Cold Spring School District, circa 2009, in any case, I was certain that any notion that the CEF was battling satanic forces of secularism was just plain false. The opposition to the Good News Club in our little town wasn’t coming from liberal government or activist judges. To the contrary, the club had Justices Thomas and Scalia, the ruling majority of the Supreme Court, and a phalanx of lawyers at their back. The Good News Club wasn’t defending itself in the context of an ongoing war. It had picked a fight right out of the clear blue sky of Santa Barbara. And the people with whom it picked that fight were the very people whom it claimed to represent. Just as our school board had realized at the outset, it was we who were powerless, and the CEF — notwithstanding its sense of victimhood — that could do as it wished.

•••

On Friday, February 20, the Good News Club finally arrived at Cold Spring School. I decided that since I had made such a stink about their presence, it was my responsibility to understand better what they did. Uncertain of what to expect, I arrived at the auditorium shortly after the school day ended.

Fifth-graders preparing for a musical performance finished their work and exited the room. A third-grader briefly stopped by to play a song on the piano, then he too left. I was the only person in the room when Si and Colleen Ishimaru made their entrance, accompanied by a cloud of cheerful balloons.

The CEF leaders are a married couple, perhaps in their mid fifties, with four grown children of their own. They moved to Santa Barbara from the Los Angeles area several years ago, and have since spearheaded the CEF here.

Colleen, wearing a pink V-neck sweater, was friendly and pleasant. I introduced myself as a Cold Spring parent and asked if I could look at her materials, which she shared with me. We chit-chatted for a while: kids, parenting, Santa Barbara. “If a child needs us,” Si said kindly, “we will be there.”

It turned out that the face of CEF was a sweet, somewhat hapless older couple who believed they were doing good works.

As the minute hand advanced past the hour, the Ishimarus began to look visibly disappointed. No children had shown up yet.

I continued to chat with Colleen about the program. Si went outside and stood next to the balloons, watching the dozens of children in the schoolyard playing happily in the sun.

After 45 minutes, they decided to call it quits. Nobody showed. Not a single child.

As I walked away from the Good News Club — from the Ishimarus with their wordless books and lonely balloons — I was surrounded by familiar sights and sounds. Children squealed as they gleefully chased one another through the play structures. A group of girls practiced their soccer moves on the field. There was the steady dribbling of a basketball on the blacktop.

I admit that I felt a quiet thrill of pride in my little school. We had come together after all, without lawyers, courts, or dictates. It wasn’t an activist judge or a secular conspiracy that caused the Good News Club to fail in this instance, but a community passionate about the welfare of its children and committed to goodwill among neighbors. We embodied the best of what I had been taught as a child is the essence of any religion worth the name: respect and love for one another.

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Discussion Guidelines

I have no problem with the CEF's setting up a Good News Club after school as long as the Taliban is allowed to set up an after-school madrassa in the classroom next door.

Readers say: Thumbs Up: 9 of 12 • Thumbs Down: 3 of 12

UCCU (anonymous profile)
May 7, 2009 at 1 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The CEF model seems eerily similar to another 1922 youth group model created for post-school activities. The schools played a critical part in developing a loyal following through indoctrination and the use of propaganda in schools and the education system. By the 1930s their membership had grown to 25,000 members. By 1936 membership was compulsory.

The Good News Club claims to currently reach 119,000 students across 3,400 clubs (http://www.cefonline.com/content/categor...).

Boys and girls, can you say Kristallnacht?

Since the CEF has built-in public attempts to ban the Good News Club from public buildings into a Martyrdom campaign, can anyone think of ways of forcing cease-and-desist orders of their ostrication practices on public grounds?

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marcelivan (anonymous profile)
May 7, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This makes a great fact pattern for a law school exam on the First Amendment.

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jimstoic (anonymous profile)
May 7, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If schools are going to allow this, they need to allow Boy Scouts back into the schools.

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jaded63 (anonymous profile)
May 7, 2009 at 4:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why aren't Boy Scouts allowed in schools? I'd never known they weren't allowed, so I'm really curious about why.

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UCCU (anonymous profile)
May 7, 2009 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What a disappointing piece of “journalism”. You never even went to a “Good News Club”. How can you accurately report on something you have never seen yourself? I cannot recall another time in history when people were using fear tactics, intimidation and misinformation to quiet religious and social freedom…oh yeah…Communism! Boy , that worked well didn’t it? Should we start burning books that our children might pick up in the library? That would be a proactive approach to stamping out this “Christian Movement” (evil as it is). Why would we want to love God or our neighbor? Sheesh!

PS: and the fire wasn’t front page because…?

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SBMOMMY (anonymous profile)
May 8, 2009 at 12:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

SBMommy, am I interpreting your comments correctly?

People who write unflattering reports about the 'Good News Club' are critiquing on freedoms, books and God?

For my reference, where can I get a list of parties and progroms that should be exempt from critical analysis?

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marcelivan (anonymous profile)
May 8, 2009 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

SBMommy, the venom in your response is so very unchristlike... ?

It is not necessary to attend a Good News Club meeting when its purpose is plainly stated on CEF's Good News Club web page: "As with all CEF ministries, the purpose of after-school Good News Clubs is to evangelize boys and girls with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and establish (disciple) them in the Word of God and in a local church for Christian living. To accomplish this goal, each club includes a clear presentation of the Gospel and an opportunity for children to trust Jesus as Savior. Each club also includes strong discipleship training to build character and strengthen moral and spiritual growth. All children are encouraged to attend a local church."

I don't need to read past the first sentence in order to understand that they have absolutely no business creating the appearance of an affiliation with a public school. I thought the article was very informative and will be on the lookout for this group at my child's school. As an ex-evangelical, I have also always educated my kids on the mythology of "going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus" so they have some perspective in dealing with the many little (and big) Ashleys of the world, who only want to do--and very earnestly believe they are doing--the right thing. Nothing like instilling a little fear to get folks to follow you...

Traumatic as it is for our community, especially those who lose their homes, the fire will pass. People will rebuild, the flora and fauna will return and it will all become an event in memory.

What gets put into little kids' minds regarding spiritual matters tends to persist. CEF and any church or temple or mosque with a children's program understand this. That's why we need this on the front page. Thank you, Katherine and Indy.

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vstaal (anonymous profile)
May 8, 2009 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

well...if you read the article, SBMommy, the journalist did attend a meeting of the GNC but there were no attendees...what does that tell ya?!?

excellent article! what a highly disturbing issue -- and it was obsessively-well-researched (mind you, the obsessive part is NOT a perjorative here) and presented in a straightforward manner...much appreciation for the education on CEF.

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Akimbo (anonymous profile)
May 8, 2009 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I appreciate the article. As it turns out, the program is also at my daughter's school. While I fully support religious freedom, I do not think that should include encouraging young children to condemn or taunt their peers. And I particularly believe that efforts to mislead children into believing that the "club" is part of their schooling is inappropriate and certainly flies in the face of separation of church and state. Seems rather hypocritical as well that a religious group would specifically aim to mislead their members. Kind of a weak foundation on which to build trust.

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WorkingMom (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 5 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Christianity should be taught in all schools, along with Buddhism, Islam, and other world religions.

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byronsnake (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 5:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Children 5 or 6 years old know the difference from school and church activities.
My four year old knows the difference.
This is a club, a club only for children to teach morals, love, respect etc.
Tell me how a 5-6 yr old knows another child is of Jewish faith?? She doesn't, I don't live in your community but we have Good News Club back here and there has never been a problem such as the one this person is writing about.
The problem in this world is "They have taken religion out of schools".
The Good News Club is for all faiths, anyone can join.
Somewhere along the line someone has made a terrible mistake or misunderstanding of the true facts.
God Bless the Mis-informed.........

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believer (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You are correct, believer, that the Good News Club is for all faiths... as long as they are open to having their child subjected to christian propaganda with the expressed goal of conversion.

From the Good News Club website information page:

::: "...As with all CEF [Child Evangelism Fellowship] ministries, the purpose of after-school Good News Clubs is to evangelize boys and girls with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and establish (disciple) them in the Word of God and in a local church for Christian living. To accomplish this goal, each club includes a clear presentation of the Gospel and an opportunity for children to trust Jesus as Savior..." http://www.cefonline.com/content/categor...

They are exploiting a loophole in the law for one brand of religion's benefit.

Not kosher.

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binky (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What an excellent article.

Shouldn't public school buildings be used for education and not a club that creates mental illness.

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East_Fork (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 10:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have a child who attends the Good News Club at Hollister School. I have sat in many times and witnessed what is being taught. Never once have I heard the teachers or leaders tell the kids that if they don't believe in Jesus that they will "go to hell". The leaders that volunteer each week care about only one thing - to teach the love that God, the same God that Christians and Jews worship, has for each one of us and to show that love to one another.
Maybe if Ms. Stewart did more thorough research and actually attended a club that has children, she would have seen that for her own eyes.
Also, a point that wasn't thoroughly explained - all children must have a signed parent permission slip in order to attend. How do I know that for such certainty? When my child first attended I received a phone call from one of the leaders telling me about the club and asking if I would give my permission. They told me that I must sign a permission slip before she could attend!
If parents don't want their children to attend, then their child cannot attend.

I for one am truly grateful for CEF and the work they do! I hope EVERY school has the privilege of having a club on their school campus.

The leaders truly care about the kids, not just to "convert" them to Christianity, but about their worries and concerns. I wish more clubs and programs were like Good News Clubs!

Oh, BTW, did you know that Good News Clubs were voted the Best Kids Club/Group by the SBParent.com Parent's Choice Awards for 2009. Why didn't Ms. Stewart interview any of the parents whose children actually attend a club? Seems she wanted to present one side and one side only!

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wheres_the_love (anonymous profile)
May 9, 2009 at 11:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

:: "The leaders that volunteer each week care about only one thing - to teach the love that God, the same God that Christians and Jews worship, has for each one of us and to show that love to one another."

'where's_the_love,' that sounds just like that Ole Time Religion!

Just not in my public schools, if you please.

I don't like the idea of the Good News Club teaching kids who is the correct god, when the arrow points in one direction only.

-----

More good works from the Good News Club website!

* Testimonies: *
-- Child Who Attended 5-Day Club --
One eight-year-old told his newly widowed mommy "I am not afraid of dying anymore. Know why Mommy? Because after I say hello to Jesus, I will just be with daddy!"

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binky (anonymous profile)
May 10, 2009 at 12:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's hard to understand the FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) presented in this article and in the comments. The group is "evangelical": they have a common goal and hope to persuade others to join it. Can you please name any other organization which doesn't? Imagine if Young Democrats of America met in the school after school hours--which they are certainly and freely allowed do. Don't they have an "agenda" to persuade others? How about environmental clubs--aren't they trying to persuade their peers and change society? Even soccer moms launch campaigns for exclusive programs: as a child who didn't (and couldn't) play soccer, I was singled out and embarrassed by my peers--and soccer was a quasi-official school program. Does that mean soccer should be banned? Ms. Stewart and the Independent betray a clear double standard.

The Supreme Court recognized a specific danger: excluding religious groups on the basis that they are religious is itself a proclamation by the State against religion. Either religious groups get treated like any other, or else we start denying rights to "undesirable" groups.

Marcelivan, if you want to make 1930's parallels, start by reading about the German Confessing Church. Some of those radical evangelicals in the CEF might just save your life someday (and Ms. Stewart's, too), against Bush III or whoever.

Peace...

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skygazer (anonymous profile)
May 10, 2009 at 12:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Fantastic article. Thank you. As someone who works in education, I find the concept of the CEF very frightening.

UCCU- the Boy Scouts were banned because of their discrimination of homosexuals. (They are not allowed as Boy Scouts or Scout leaders.) Schools may not allow groups who discriminate to use their campuses.

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cartman (anonymous profile)
May 10, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Skygazer – The German Confessing Church was a great 1930s response movement.

However, I'm drawing parallels to the 1920s after-school youth program, Großdeutsches Jugendverband (Greater German Youth Movement).

BTW – does your second comment exclude non-radical evangelists from maybe saving my life? Should someone attending a Good News Club meeting come to a similar conclusion? Or is it just talk to put me in my place?

I’ve attended meetings of various political and religious organizations who use similar rhetoric. The use of the "save your life" rhetoric is endemic to what I find frightening.

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marcelivan (anonymous profile)
May 10, 2009 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Religious preaching does not need to be confined to "clubs" any more than religious meetings need to take place in a "church".

As long as kids are allowed to share their feelings about God, and as long as kids can question what is being preached to them, we need not worry about anything.

If the schools start telling kids that they cannot preach their religious beliefs on campus, or wear shirts depicting their beliefs, then we are all in trouble.

Feeling are going to be hurt and people offended no matter what happens, but let's make sure that freedom of speech/religion doesn't disappear because some person/group claims they feel excluded by the dominant (even if nominally so) group.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 10, 2009 at 11:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I graduated from Cold Spring in 1996. I have wonderful memories of the student, faculty, staff, and community of Cold Spring. I'm a proud Dolphin.

Looking back I realize how privileged I was being able to attend such a great public school however I did have a few problems while I was there and they all revolved around with religion (Christianity in particular) on campus.

For all seven years of my attendance I went to the after-school day care program, Dolphin Center. If memory serves me right, the people who ran it at the time had close ties with The Covenant Church and almost all of the staff were Westmont students. At some point in my first few years we had a serious conflict with them when I came home from school crying "Mommy! They told me that you are going to leave me alone when Jesus comes and I am going to go to hell." I knew I wasn't supposed to go anywhere with strangers and it was terrifying to be told that I was going to be left behind if I didn't go with this person I knew nothing about. I know that my parents had a serious talk with the heads of Dolphin Center about the incident and I assume that it was communicated to counselors not to use the program to tell bible stories. Around the same time one of my friends asked me if I loved Jesus. I only vaguely knew who Jesus was, who was mostly as a historic figure to me, so I said no. She informed me that we could no longer be friends and I was confused and saddened by the loss of a friendship.

You cannot separate Cold Spring from the heavily Christian Community around it. Many kids spend their summers at camp or the pool at Westmont and many families are connected to the college as well. I remember that the Covenant Church was The Place To Be for week night Ice Cream Socials but for those of us that didn't want to participate in bible study or group prayer it was an uncomfortable environment.

What is happening at Cold Spring today isn't something entirely new and it isn't something unique. Just go watch Jesus Camp and see some of the ways that modern Evangelism functions. Then come back to this article and realize that Santa Barbara isn't as far away from the Bible belt as you thought.

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akorngie (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 12:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Just like every other activity in the world you have the choice to participate in this club or not. If you do not like the idea of the club, don't participate. Do not ruin it for everyone who does want to participate in it. Are you going to stop everyone in your children's school from going to church or Sunday school (because they can learn that stuff there too)? No, you cant. Religion in other people is beyond everyone's control and everyone has the freedom to practice it where ever and whenever they want. That's one of the perks of living in America! :-)

It's all about common respect. Yes a little girl accidently said something to another little girl that she shouldn't have but that doesn't mean that the Good News Club teaches the kids to be disrespectful to others. They teach kids to love one another. And as for kids being open minded and respectful about other religions and different types of people...I think that lies on the parents more than anything or anyone.

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SB1606 (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 12:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

After reading the article as well as the comments, I feel really disappointed at how much obvious anger there is toward the good news club. While people might not agree with what is being taught, or where it is being taught, I am really surprised at the response!

I don't see the problem with an organization meeting on campus with children who have been given their parent's signed permission to attend. If someone has a problem with their child attending, they are free to say "no," and explain to their child why.

I understand the importance of separation of church and state, but I don't see what the big deal is about an after school program on campus either. The Mormon church holds classes daily before high school, also on campus, all across America. Should those be shut down as well?

I was surprised at how the author, through her research, discovered that the CEF's goal is "to evangelize boys and girls with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, disciple them in the Word of God, and establish them in a Bible-believing church for Christian living.” Was this a surprise? The Bible itself says to do just that.

The CEF is simply following their belief, based on the Bible. If an Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Mormon group want to do the same, so be it. The bummer, however, is that it seems as though much of the article, as well as many of the comments are aimed directly at putting down Christianity for wanting to share their "good news."

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I graduated from Cold Spring in 1996. I have wonderful memories of the student, faculty, staff, and community of Cold Spring. I'm a proud Dolphin." -akorngie-

As you can imagine, we're happy your a proud Dolphin.

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sixdolphins (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 2:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Akorngie's remarks were telling - important info was contained in his/her remarks about the heavily christian atmosphere at Cold Srping School.
The real pivot-point here is the rental of public school space for use by outside organizations. Should everyone be denied?
The cessation of passing out info to student's through school saved many problems in the Goletal disriict. Would be best if these extreme groups didn't meet on school grounds, but the districts have to be fair.

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mangomamma (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What it comes down to is that people do not like being told that they are on the wrong path and need to change their behavior. I Naturally, the anti-Christians will pimp "the children" to gain sympathy for their cause, and faux-Christians will amend their message to please such folks rather than say "This is what we believe, and if it means we get lose our jobs at the school because of it, then so be it."

Let's face it, the "God loves everybody" mantra sells big-time, and our society doesn't want to hear the message that getting drunk and sleeping around and sloughing off your wife for a woman half your age (as long as you throw money at the first wife and kids you dump) is *wrong*, and as such, it can be expected that any message of repentance will be met with hostility. Having said that, I don't need a big building or to get caught up in all the $$$ of organized religion.

We have made some remarkable advances for the better on one end--in particular with advances in civil rights--over the last half century, but while these changes happened it was also determined that the whole system needed to go so out went religion. Today, there are those who see the effects of the latter decision and connect the dots to many of the social ills that went from anomalies to mainstream.

I don't claim to be any better than the worst sinner, but I believe and have faith, and as far as the outcome of this issue in particular, let the chips fall where they may.

I would say that if some inconsistency with the U.S. Constitution is found, or the thought of hurt feelings is so great that it is decided to use force to eliminate Christianity from our public schools, (like that hasn't already happened) then that should also apply to *any* spiritual indoctrination--or even suggestion.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The “Good news club” reminds me of the cigarette industry. They need to indoctrinate (Brainwash) them when they are young, no doubt they are aware of how unlikely it is to attract adults into their fantasy world.

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9bars (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The problem with these types of "Clubs" is that they are teaching the children to recognize the "other." If anything about religion is taught it should be how many of them there are and that they all may be pointing at the same thing. Religion should be taught in schools. Not indoctrination but a survey of religions. All religious instruction that attempts to proselytise (all religions) does is convince the current believers that they are correct in their religious thinking if they can attract converts. It helps cement their beliefs, but in the end does not drive out doubt.

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2009 at 9:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since the Milford decision seems to have blown a very big hole in the wall between Church and State, perhaps then only way to counter the "Good News Club" is to offer a competing after school program of comparative religion/culture. Make it fun with dance lessons, puppet shows (e.g Indonesian shadow puppets). In addition to the benefits of better equipping kids to deal with a multicultural 21st century - it will be a good inoculation against religious indoctrination in the future.
After all - America is the land of competition.

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islandchris (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 6:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Durango-

Would you include atheism in this religious survey? I'm not sure if I could agree that atheism and Islam, or atheism and Christianity are pointing to the same thing.

"All religious instruction that attempts to proselytise (all religions) does is convince the current believers that they are correct in their religious thinking if they can attract converts. It helps cement their beliefs, but in the end does not drive out doubt".

See Starshine's column this month titles "Pearly Whites," and check out the responses. Seems as though even the people who don't believe in any kind of god are also looking to have their beliefs confirmed.

Everyone likes to hear confirmation that what they are doing, thinking, feeling is right, and that is fine. I think the goal of the Good News Club, however, is to follow what their religion teaches to do and share their "good news," as opposed to try and cement their own beliefs by convincing kids.

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nice article. As mankind begins to emerge from the darkness of religious superstition and influence, people will be less afraid to take on kooks like CEF. The only thing that lawyers for groups like this can hope for is that the Supreme Court continues to have weak, sympathetic Justices with poor judgment, clouded by their own weaknesses. The argument that these groups are harmless and teach children morality is starting to be seen for the propaganda that it is.... PARENTS teach morality. I don't need jesus to tell me that I should treat others with dignity and respect. Freedom of religion is great. It does not include allowing religious predators to target my children while they are susceptible to influence.

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anti_christ (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

anti_christ-

I think even the CEF would agree with you on much of your post...

It IS the parents who teach their children morality (the Bible itself even says so!)

You don't need Jesus to tell you to treat others with dignity and respect.

Freedom of religion IS great!

But do you really think it is great, or do you just say that to remain politically correct? The problem is that you seem so upset over a group that is simply practicing their freedom of religion in the way that their holy book instructs them to. I'd think as a supporter of the freedom of religion, that you'd encourage everyone to live out their faith. You obviously take offense to what they believe, however, calling them "religious predators," who believe "superstition" and "propaganda."

I don't know if you really do appreciate freedom of religion, or the importance of treating others with dignity and respect...

If a parent, in the midst of their teaching morality to their children decides that it would be good for their child to attend a Good News Club, and signs the necessary consent, are the leaders of the club really predators?

While you might not agree with the CEF, be careful not to become hypocritical of your own stated values while voicing your opinion.

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have had encounters with the CEF over the years, and a more nefarious, underhanded “Christian” group does not exist.

They know that young children are at the most impressionable stage of life, before they begin to develop any facility for critical thinking. They see it as their mission to “evangelize” kids behind the backs of their “unsaved” parents (“unsaved,” BTW, in their parlance including not just Jews or Muslims or non-believers, but Catholics, Mormons, and the more liberal protestant denominations). And, as you point out, they both try to integrate their programs as seamlessly into the school environment as possible (so kids see it as just an “extra period” at school, and the CEF folks as “teachers”) and operate under euphemisms and obfuscation to conceal the true proselytizing nature of their organization from parents.

Example: I used to work at the USPS, and one of my duties was examining bulk mailings to insure that they complied with regulations. One of the requirements for a non-profit entity like CEF is that the full, legal name of their organization (as registered with the USPS) must appear in the return address of any mailing to qualify for the extremely cheap, subsidized non-profit rate. You would not believe the arguments I had with CEF folks who flatly refused to put “Child Evangelism Fellowship’ on their mail-outs to parents and kids! They would not admit it, but it was clear that they knew that the “E” word would cause a lot of Moms and Dads to just automatically deep-six the thing. (They thrive on deception.) Of course, this lowly former postal clerk would try to reject their mailings, and then they would get waved through with a wink and a nod by my manager – who just happened to be an Evangelical Christian himself. (Hmmm...)

Given the young age of their targets, the deceptive practices, and the way they do an end-around on the parents, I’m amazed there haven’t been scads of lawsuits filed against them by angry parents whose kids were “converted” without their knowledge or consent. Of course, given the entanglement between church and state that bloomed under Reagan, survived the Clinton years, and grew even more intractable in the Bush era; as well as the deep pockets and sectarian lawyers the Evangelical groups have on call, I’m sure any such suits that have been filed never got far. Apparently, “freedom of religion” includes the right to manipulate young minds by any means necessary, without parental consent or oversight. What a great country!

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Stanislav (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 5:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear PST,

Since you called me out by name I think I should respond to you directly.

To your question, "Would I include atheism in this religious survey" my answer is, "Absolutely."

I come from the school that thinks knowledge is good and ignorance is bad.

I like the quote, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." Edward Bok (I think)

This comes from a teaching derived from the Hindu tradition (multiple deities). Religion may be seen as focusing on the finger when what they are really pointing at the moon. In too many cases religious zealots become happy victimizers. The "other" (not my religion) are easier to see as demonic precisely because they are "Un-Godly." That makes them easier to kill in war. Remember the Crusades?

Since you are obviously a Christian, think of what I'm describing as a Muslim and then flip the coin. Empathy sees to be what is missing from the monotheistic "Abrahamic" religions. Who is the greatest prophet? Elijah, Jesus, Mohammed? My guess is that you will answer depending on what you learned when you were between five and eleven years old. There is no such thing as a Christen child (no more than there is a Muslim child - religion is a "learned" behavior).

What the Good News Club is attempting to do is deprive the children of the ability of engage in critical thinking later in life because they are being indoctrinated just when they are starting to learn to think. Mothers are essential to the rearing of children. If your mother says (when you are five) don't play in traffic, you may get killed and in the same breath say my religious doctrine (take your pick) represents the same level of truth you deprive that child of thinking critically once he/she has reached full cognizance.

In all proselytizing we should all ask ourselves "Cui Bono?"

The Taliban has now had four instances of poisoning girls schools. Who benefits?

What we are talking about here is literally poisoning girls schools and figuratively poisoning children who are just starting to become sentient beings. Do you really want to champion that?

Who benefits? My answer is, "Not the child."

As we seekers like to say say, "Keep the faith!"

The follow up question is always, "Which One?"

I believe the dictum, "There is always more human closeness in doubt than there can ever by in certitude."

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 8:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My above comments were not intended to be "venomous". It's just scary that we live in a world that is so hostile to Christians in particular. Humans attempting to live out their faith are not perfect...by no means. However, Christianity in itself is not evil or wrong. And no one can doubt or dismiss the wonderful impact that Christianity has had on this Nation since it's inception. We were founded on those beliefs...like it or not.
This author did one sided research to present a one sided view from a non objective standpoint. This article belonged in the editorial section...not the front page. It was an opinion piece not a matter of fact. My children attend a good news club and it is not what it has been made out to be. They are using a building on campus and building relationships with kids--not brainwashing. I have a prediction here...Cold Springs good news club will grow and will florish as time goes on.
To all of you who are atheist...

What do you do without faith and hope?

What do you do with the stagering evidence of the intricacy and vastness of this amazing universe?

What if your wrong? What if there is more?

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SBMOMMY (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2009 at 11:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To SBMOMMY:

(Part 1)

“And no one can doubt or dismiss the wonderful impact that Christianity has had on this Nation since it's inception. We were founded on those beliefs...like it or not.”

If we were founded on those beliefs, why is there no mention of Jesus or Christianity in our founding documents? Why is the only religious reference in the Declaration of Independence to “the laws of Nature and Nature’s God?” (A vague phrase that is associated not with any Christian theology, but with Deism.) Why are the only mentions of religion in the Constitution both designed to keep government OUT of the religious sphere? (I.e., no establishment of religion, though permitting its exercise; no religious test for public office.)

If you honestly believe this nation was founded on Christianity, you are utterly unfamiliar with not only our founding documents, but also with the attitudes, motivations, and beliefs of the men who wrote them. You have most likely been sold a bill of goods by some pastor or preacher. Try actually investigating and studying the matter with an open mind. Read. (Something other than the Bible.) Use the reasoning powers and intellect that the God you say you believe in gave you.

“To all of you who are atheist...What do you do without faith and hope?”

Simple – live in the moment; embrace and appreciate life as the short, finite thing it is; and try to leave my little corner of the world a better place for those who come after me. I don’t need faith and hope – I deal in reality.

“What do you do with the stagering [sic] evidence of the intricacy and vastness of this amazing universe?”

Why do you assume that intricacy and vastness automatically imply an intelligent creator? You would probably say that God is not created, infinite, simply “is.” Why could the universe not possess those same qualities? It is an anthropomorphic bias that assumes that there must be something like a being or spirit or God behind it all.

“What if your [sic] wrong? What if there is more?”

What if YOU are wrong? You say you believe in God – which one? There are many gods that have been worshipped through the ages, and are worshipped today. Honestly, chances are the only reason you believe in the Judeo-Christian concept of God and believe Christianity and the Jesus to be “the way” is because you grew up in a country, culture, and probably family in which Christianity is the “default” norm. If you had been born in another part of the world, or in another era, you may well have either never been exposed to Christianity, or viewed IT as a “false religion.”

(continued)

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Stanislav (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 5:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To SBMOMMY:

(Part 2)

But to get closer to the original article and topic...you and any other Christian are free to believe what you want to believe. You are free to share those beliefs with others, and they consequently are free to ignore you, walk away, or dismiss your arguments. Young children being evangelized under the types of activities sponsored by CEF don’t have those options. They are too young to think critically, not savvy enough to make the distinction between a “school activity” and an activity that just happens to be taking place in a school. They are all too vulnerable to both peer pressure and the authority of adults. Is that really how you want to see people come to your faith – by deception, manipulation, programming and subterfuge -- by taking advantage of a child's immaturity and still-forming intellect? To quote from Pink Floyd’s “The Wall,” leave the kids alone! Let them mature to the age when they can responsibly and thoughtfully make their own decisions about spirituality.

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Stanislav (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 5:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hi Durango,

I appreciate the thoughtful reply. This conversation has been left in an awkward place, however...

By labeling me "obviously a Christian," does it really even matter what my response to an article like this might be? Because according to your logic, I am either no longer capable of critical thinking because I was indoctrinated at an early age, or even worse, by my own decision later in life, chose to follow an ignorant religion that supports depriving children of the freedom of choosing for themselves what to believe. Either way, I guess my opinions become pretty worthless because I've been robbed of my ability to critically think or have chosen to support preying on young minds.

If you do find any validity in my thoughts, I completely agree that religions should be introduced in school without one being the "correct" one. If there is absolute truth and there is a "true" god then it would make sense that it would stand out without someone teaching it as such. Cream always rises to the top, right?

But an after school program that requires parental consent? Should children not be allowed to attend any religious meeting until they are a certain age set by a governing body? What about birthday parties or sports teams? Because after all, religions such as Jehova's Witness believe these things to be wrong! If children attend parties and play on teams, there would be a predisposition to reject that religion later when it is introduced, right?

Maybe the answer is to do exactly what is taking place in this forum to stimulate critical thought, and provoke people from all sides to look deeper at what and why they believe. We might find out that critical thought is possible - even by the indoctrinated!

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 12:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Eliminating superstition is the answer to our problems. I think of the enlightened governments of Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao and so forth. I wonder what would happen if Christians in this country were thrown in jail and killed for their faith. Would the people who claim "separation of church and state" stand up for these people, or would they hedge bets as the persecuted were thrown to the lions?

There has been plenty of bigotry in the name of Christianity, but also just as much coming from the anti-Christians. What needs to happen is that people need to grow up, accept that fact that there are those who think differently from them, and NOT ban people from preaching their faith (whatever it may be) or atheism.

Sadly, I don't think humankind's tribalism tendencies will even allow to escape its might-makes-right mentality, whether it be pseudo-theocracy, or post-modern enlightenment.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way, for the humor-challenged, my reference to Stalin/Pol Pot/Mao was meant sarcastically.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The doctrine of separation of church and state is tantamount to understanding the foundation upon which this country was founded. As a people we are free to worship as we wish or not. The freedom of religion must also include freedom from religion, as hard as that may be for some organized religious groups to accept. We can choose to send our children to public or parochial schools. I think the public schools would be best served by maintaining the separation of church and state. If you let one religious group on campus, you must let all religious groups on campus. What chaos that could be. I believe the academic study of world religions to be valuable, but not until middle or high school years. We can attend church services, prayer groups, and a multitude of religious activity in our private lives. Let's please leave our public lives free from this kind of infringement.

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buddhadog (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To SBMOMMY:

(Part 3)

This is not about faith or righteousness.

Conscious or unconscious, when we divide the world into those who support the 'Good News Club' (GNC) and Atheists, these comments pierce with the venom.

There are many of us conservative Christians who STRONGLY OPPOSE the recruiting methods and theology of the Good News Club.

I do not want my children pressured out of their theistic freedoms because of teachers and peers who are unconsciously shepherded into this brand of non-denominational Christian beliefs.

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marcelivan (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you let one religious group on campus, you must let all religious groups on campus. What chaos that could be. -buddahdog-

I disagree. What you would have is what we've had for the last two centuries which is a free market of ideas. To say that we should pull all religion from our campuses would require force to do so and what you'd have is nothing different from a totalitarian state.

For all of its faults, the U.S. has been a shining example of various religious faiths coexisting with each other, as well as coexisting with atheists. The idea of forcing all religion off of campus is scary because this totalitarianism.

Also, people do not have the free choice to send their kids to parochial schools if they can't afford to do so, or do not get vouchers--which perhaps not coincidentally are opposed by those who fear people using them to send their children to "religious" schools.

Accept the fact that people have different views from yours and be thankful that you and I have the freedom to have this discussion.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 6:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is not why I and others of my generation stuck our necks out protesting war and injustice. For all those who either weren't there or who were but weren't paying attention, let me tell you what the goal was.

The idea was that everyone would be able to live together and be exactly who they are without fear of running afoul of some sort of social police whose self-apointed duty it is to tell folks where to go to church (or not), what to think, what to say, and how to relate to each other.

Fast forward and here we are, swimming in a new pool with the same old water. Nobody talks to anybody else, we're all scared to death of each other, worried about being accused of "hate speech" and "hate thought", scared to death of being caught (gasp) praying in public or worse, displaying any kind of spiritual faith in a school, etc.

This is not an improvement, people tiptoeing around each other, hiding their true thoughts, smiling in your face (to quote the song) while all the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers...

This was not the idea. We were supposed to be making the world a better place for EVERYONE, including those of spiritual faith. Now it's all about the atheists and what they want and what they are offended by, and anyone of spiritual faith...in the closet with you!

How about everybody just grow the heck up and show some basic good manners; you know, the kind mama should have taught you, or if she did, the kind you should be showing right now? Behave. Use your indoor voices. Stop being selfish and rude. If someone wants to go to the Church of the Holy Macaroni...FINE...let him! If he doesn't want to go to ANY church? Far out! Have at it!

And stop minding everyone else's business for them. Have a little respect for your fellow human beings, whether they have a spiritual belief or not. You don't get to pass laws forcing everyone else to live your way...at least not in a truly free society.

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Holly (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 9:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with the SBMommy's comment, this article should have been in the editorial section, not as a cover article.
It is unfortunate the editors missed the wisdom of this.
As it is, the vilification evident in many of the comments, shuts down helpful conversation.

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LupineLady (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 10:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What is interesting is how people are afraid that their child might be evangalized. It makes me wonder if these people are too lazy to spend time with their kids and expect the schools to raise them.

Skygazer hits the nail on the head about the German Confessional Church. I think about how Dietrich Bonhoffer gave his life in his struggle against the Nazis in accordance with his Christian faith. How do those who employ comparing evangelicals to Nazis square that one away?

The postmodern/whatever you want to call it way of thinking did not usher in the utopian society its followers thought it would. Here we are four and a half decades after prayer was outlawed from public schools and were is the harmonious society? Let's see: Schoolyard shootings, gang violence exploding, road rage, and a general sense of angst on top of whatever problems we had back then. Pol Pot had a "year zero" approach in Cambodia and he wanted to eradicate any vestige of religion in favor of a truly egalitarian society. By all accounts, Pol Pot was a soft-spoken well-meaning man but the problem was that under his rule about a third of his country was murdered in ways that would make the most hard-core SS Nazi proud.

People need to grow up and get over themselves. Isn't it funny how those who are so offended at public schools allowing free speech have no trouble with funding art exhibits with public $$$ which insult Christianity?...to wit, I refer to Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" where a crucifix was shown in a vat of urine. I guess THAT is ok, but God forbid (oops, I said "God") that the 1st Amendment should be allowed on public property lest someone should be offended. How silly.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2009 at 11:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

believer wrote: The problem in this world is "They have taken religion out of schools".

The problem with this world is the belief that everyone's god is better than the next guy's god. This schoolyard pissing match has done nothing but be the root cause of deaths and untold suffering for millions since the start. Groups like this just revel in the thought of capturing young minds that can be twisted so that this misery can be perpetuated. The more misery, the better the propaganda that we need more religion to "fix" the world.

Not to single out Christianity, all religions are the same, but there has been over 2000 years of practice and belief-where is the great world that was to come because of the belief in god? Was it found in the wars, the torture, the persecution, the lies, the hypocrisy; The Hagees, the Haggards, the Bushes, the Falwells?

If one wants religion, they can get it from religious groups and the family- not the schools. Oh, and to paraphrase the Bible, pray in private (Keep it to yourself until I specifically ask for it) ...and stay away from the kids.

"Imagine no religion...."

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democrat_socialist (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 5:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

An excerpt from a book I just read. Fitting for the conversation...

In the nineteenth century, Nietzche wrote that the death of God would result in the total eclipse of all values, and since values no longer came from God, they would now be made up by man. And since man is descended from the animal kingdom- an idea Nietzche adopted from Darwin - man was likely to embrace the value of the libido dominandi (the lust to dominate) that we see in nature. Superior humans would eliminate inferior ones for the same reason that lions eat antelopes. "Master morality" prevails over "slave morality." It becomes useless to appeal to pity and compassion and decency any more. That would be like telling lions that they should stop being lions.

In other words, the staggering number of people killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades is the product of a hubristic modern ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. In rejecting God, man becomes scornful of the doctrine of human sinfulness and convinced of the perfectibility of his nature. Man now seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. In order to achieve this, the atheist rulers establish total control of society. They invent a form of totalitarianism far more comprehensive than anything that previous rulers attempted: every aspect of life comes under political supervision. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, the handicapped, the religious dissidents, and so on - have to be relocated, incarcerated, or liquidated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants have shown themselves quite willing to pay (Zedong, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc). The old moral codes do not apply, and ordinary atheist functionaries carry out behavior that would make a church inquisitor quake. The atheist regimes, by their actions, confirm the truth of Dostoevsky's dictum: if God is not, everything is permitted.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the main source of human conflict and violence.

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We see it here in good 'ol progressive S.B. The rich have it all and the poor get poorer and the homeless...well we just don't really like to talk about them do we?

As for the comment "If one wants religion, they can get it from religious groups and the family- not the schools. Oh, and to paraphrase the Bible, pray in private (Keep it to yourself until I specifically ask for it) ...and stay away from the kids." Matthew 28:19 also says this: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Also, Christianity is not all about false prophets found in the Republican Party (as well as the locally idolized Democratic Party as well) it's about a belief in a higher power that holds us accountable for how we behave.

2000 years ago Jesus was nailed to the cross, and I have no doubt if he were preaching today people would do the same to him. Of course, "hate speech" could very well be the tool used to make any mention of Christianity illegal, since clearly so many people don't even want others to even talk about their faith--unless it's a user-friendly sanitized version of The Gospel.

Funny how "Reverend" Jesse "Hymie Town" Jackson and other similar demigods get a free pass while Falwell (also self-aggrandizing I'll freely admit) doesn't simply because he played for a different political team.

Christianity has pretty well been eliminated from public life, but coincidentally humanists have failed to create the egalitarian utopia they so often talk about. Could it be that human nature IS evil?...as that book deemed as superstitious fables has talked about for many centuries?

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"UCCU- the Boy Scouts were banned because of their discrimination of homosexuals. (They are not allowed as Boy Scouts or Scout leaders.) Schools may not allow groups who discriminate to use their campuses." Skygazer

I think Skygazer gave us one way to get them out of our schools we need homosexuals to apply to teach Good News Club across the nation.

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okjoe (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Google search results:

!. "jesse jackson*" "hymietown" = 9,680
2. "jerry falwell*" "you made this happen" = 14,800
---
1. an insensitive racial slur said in a talk with a reporter (Jackson falsely assumed it was off the record) about jews attitudes toward Israel.*

2. A public broadcast on the "700 Club" TV show with Pat Robertson* (who responded "Well, I totally concur...") on the cause and blame for nation's worst terrorist attack

---
*all christian "reverends."

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binky (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I haven't read every single post, so I apologize if I'm being redundant.
A few points came to mind...
1) The words "separation of church and state" don't appear in the Constitution. They were part of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, the context of which deals with religious liberty -- that state legislature shouldn't make a law regarding the establishment of a state religion. The direct quote from the Constitution in regard to a freedom of religion: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
How this should be interpreted is open to scholarly debate. But I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean religious kids clubs can't meet on school property after school hours -- as long as they aren't violating any actual laws.

2) It is legal for religious groups to hold meetings on public (i.e., community/constituency-owned property). If I'm not mistaken, Calvary Chapel has held its big old Easter shin-dig out at the SB Courthouse sunken gardens. I'm relatively certain that other religious groups have and continue to meet at public spaces. The University (UCSB) here in town (a public institution), for example, allows religious student organizations to hold meetings on campus.
Since these kids clubs hold meetings after school hours, the meetings themselves constitute an assembly of religious individuals meeting freely on public property. I have also learned that children attending the meetings must have a signed parent permission slip to attend. Neither CEF nor the school district, I imagine, want to open themselves up to the possibility of a lawsuit from an angry parent.

3) The author, along with other parents in the Cold Springs School community evidently used a lot of word-of-mouth to communicate their displeasure with the idea of a Good News Kids Club. I'm sure, even if it was subconscious, scare and intimidation tactics were used. (Somehow, I don't believe that all parents felt *exactly* the same as the author.) Therefore, I find it a bit ironic that Ms. Stewart would use the US Constitution (even if it was misquoted) to make her point. Sadly but quite clearly, she curtailed freedom of religion for the Christian students at her school. In her effort to protect the rights of her own child, she violated the Constitutionally-given rights of other children.

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humansb (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

binky: As the Bible says "God is no respector of persons" (words to that effect) so between that, and the fact that it's just plain tacky, I think we agree that one who calls themself "reverand" is rather self-aggrandizing. As one former teacher of mine told his class "You can call me by my first name, and my name is "Sir". There are many false profits (sic) in the "Christian" church.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 7:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"It's just scary that we live in a world that is so hostile to Christians in particular."

Well, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims generally aren't trying to draw other people's children into "after school clubs" and then telling those children that every other religion is wrong. I get very tired of people who claim the Christian faith trying to hegonomize everyone else while they claim that they are somehow victims of repression or hostility. I think it's because some lump in their right to practice their faith with their "right" to prosteletize.

On a more personal note, I have my own story of interactions with religious groups that use school property. When I was a first year 8th grade teacher, still reeling from the death of my mother about a month before, I came in to work one a Monday morning to find my entire classroom in disarray. Our partitioned walls had been opened so carelessly that some of my bulletin board material had been ripped loose. The partitions had been left open, so that the four other team teachers and I faced a large, cavernous space, instead of the individual classrooms we would need for instruction. Moreover, the desks we'd left arranged for our classes the Friday before had been shoved to the sides of our classrooms and left in piles, and the desks had been moved between rooms so that we had to count them out again for each classroom. It was a good thing our team had a planning period for first period, because it took all of us most of our planning hour to put the rooms and desks back in order so that we could have usable classrooms for our students. We learned that the church that had a contract to rent the school's auditorium (NOT our classrooms) had decided to use our classroom spaces without the school's permission. This was also illegal because confidentiality laws require teachers to secure all private information about students or grades before other groups can use their classroom. It left me wondering what kind of group would listen to sermons (presumably) on "love thy neighbor" and yet would turn around and act with so little disregard for others.

When I was in elementary school I heard that the same thing was happening with a local church there. They'd rented out the auditorium, but then had started to "borrow" classroom space. But my mom was on the school board and they put the kabosh on that -- they told the church they would lose their contract if they didn't follow it.

This is why I now doubt that churches belong in schools, even just for renting worship space on Sundays. In my admittedly limited experience, they seldom seem to be able to maintain the boundaries they had agreed to. It sounds like the "club" in this article is having similar issues.

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UCCU (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 10:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

UCCU,
It is clear that you have a very emotional reaction to this article and subsequent comments due to personal issues and experiences. And obviously, to have a group treat your classroom space in such a disrespectful way would be upsetting to anyone. I hope that someone in a position of authority at your school brought attention to this matter -- and that it didn't happen a second time. (I used to be a teacher -- so I understand how annoying it would be to have someone come in and leave the classroom in total disarray!)
I am curious, though, as to what evidence in the article you are pointing to that demonstrates this local club having a lack of "boundaries" or misuse of school property. I didn't see that in the article, in regard to this group in particular. Since the author of the article did not attend any other group in town, I agree, we have limited "evidence" to go on.
If you haven't had the chance to read my earlier post, I urge you to do so. As frustrating as it is to share public space with others -- especially with those we disagree with -- there are certain laws put in place to protect the rights of assembly and of worship in this country. We also have laws that govern our public spaces. At times they may seem annoying but they are in place to protect all of our rights.
Proselytizing is a part of many religions and ideologies. The desire to impart others with "your own" personal beliefs is as old as civilization itself. However, in America, it *is* one of our freedoms (speech). I think the brilliance of the American system of freedom is -- in the end -- what tends to drive us all crazy! And yet -- where would we be without it? I'll take the crazy dude shouting hell and damnation on the corner or the hassle of having to pick up my kid right as the school bell rings to ensure that she doesn't attend a meeting I don't agree with ANY DAY over the alternative.

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humansb (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 10:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

UCCU: Before I address the other points, let me say (and I realize this is nothing unique) that I can relate about your mother because mine died last July and I'm still feeling the loss.

As for the point you raise, here is my response: No matter what the demographic, people behave badly. Anti-Jewish pograms in Russia, the Holocaust, sectarian violence in the Punjab, Indira Gandhi blown away by her Sikh bodyguards, (preceded by her giving orders to destroy one of their temples) what the Jews are doing in Gaza, the Muslim government in Saudi Arabia ordering 40 lashes to a woman in her 70's for "mingling" with two men in their 20's, (One of which was like a grandson to her) and of course sectarian fratercide between Protestants and Catholics, Sunnis and Sheites (sp?) and so forth.

It seems that Christians are the only Bad Guys because at least nominally, Christians predominate in the U.S. My point is that human nature dicates that people will hide behind causes in order to justify their hateful agendas. Does that mean that all Mexicans who complain about racism are La Raza racists?...or that all people who believe that there should be a common language in the U.S. hate Mexicans? Or that all Irish wanting independence are I.R.A. terrorists?...and finally, that those of us who believe in Jesus are guilty of crimes other do in His name?

I have no problem with anyone telling me I'm crazy for being a Christian/trying to convert me to their religion/trying to convince me there is no God and I realize no matter how much I prosalityze I won't convert many, but apart from legitimate complain others and yourself have about people acting as "Christians" it serves all of us well to keep the line of communication open.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2009 at 11:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bill/PST, et al,

"It's just scary that we live in a world that is so hostile to Christians in particular."

I read both your posts and you seem rational. But then you go off on a Christian rant. You do know you can't be an "owner of absolute truth" and at the same time completely rational, don't you?

I refer to someone who I think was a fairly smart man, Thomas Edison. To paraphrase, he said, "We don't know one tenth of one millionth about anything." It is not godly, it is simply human hubris to say, "I know!" What you do by saying, "I know! End of story" is short circuit the normal human telology by jumping to (possibly) a wrong conclusion.

Since you seem to have a sense of humor (reference to your "humor challenged" comment - nothing is ever said entirely in jest), how about this.

Woman is watching TV. Sees a wrong way driver on 101. She calls her husband on his cell phone. She says, "Be careful there is someone going the wrong way near where you are." His reply, "One! There are hundreds of them!"

Don't let them throw a net over you. You might not get out. I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong used to fill our institutions. No more, Reagan shut down the mental health care system and put them on the street.

"I have no problem with anyone telling me I'm crazy for being a Christian/trying to convert me to their religion/trying to convince me there is no God and I realize no matter how much I prosalityze I won't convert many, but apart from legitimate complain others and yourself have about people acting as "Christians" it serves all of us well to keep the line of communication open."

O.K. I'll call you crazy and you can call me crazy but be true to your last line. Keep the lines of communication open.

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2009 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bill/PST, et al, (continued)

When I say you see the rest of the world as wrong, I don't mean non-religious people. I mean other religious people who are just as sure of their "truth" as you are of yours.

Imagine the "after school program" was not Christian but Muslim. Do you know that Muslims are now out-breeding any other monotheistic religion and will win the womb lottery over time? What should you, as a practicing Christian, do? Suggest birth control? Good Luck! Try to convert them? Good Luck! Better yet, do you think you're a good candidate for conversion to Islam? The Muslims get them at an even younger age than the Good News Club. The father/uncle (closest male relative) whispers into the ear of each newborn, "You are a child of Allah."

Imagine the "after school program" was not Christian but some South West desert primitive religion that used Peyote in their sacrements? Forget the illegal part of their theology, how would you see that? Would you encourage schools to embrace that religious freedom for primary school children right after the bell rings end of "education" time for a new "education" in out-of-body experience?

How about the KKK? Do you think it is just a coincidence that they carried Bibles and burned Crosses? How about the Arian Nation? What are their core religious beliefs?

Not that I single Christians out, you can level the same accusations on almost any religious dogma and some believers who are really on a power trip.

My contention is that if we read (and understand) history we can see that "true believers" make up a large part of the nadir periods of our past.

One of the post made an allusion to water. I believe that the "water" that the religious fanatics swim in is the wide body of their faith. BTW, most of the "wide body of faith" are good, thinking, smart people. They just aren't quick enough to come down hard on the "crazies" who use religion to their own ends - be it Pat Robertson or Osama bin Laden or Hitler (I had to include him because he thought the Catholic Church was a great model to control the minds of people and he used their methods as a model).

Now I expect to hear about (Zedong, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc) but to say that non-religious leaders are responsible for most human tragedy has to be a selective reading of history.

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2009 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Durango: To outlaw religion because of its narrow-mindedness requires by definition coercion. I am not here to force my narrow-minded belief on to you or anyone else, you can take it or leave it. What I have a problem with is people hiding behind the constitution when they don't have the guts to admit that they simply do not like the message of Christianity--or for that matter any other religion. I would like to think that as a society, we can be mature enough to say "this is what I think, and you think differently, and since there isn't a thing either of us can do to get past this, let's agree to disagree and move on". As for what the KKK, Stalin, Brezhnev, Lenin, or even McCartney do, that is NOT my concern. My concern is that people GROW UP and deal with the fact that there are others who may dare to tell them "I have some advice for you".

When you look at the political dogmatism, do you not see a fervor that parallels religious belief? Have you ever been screamed at or called names because of your political beliefs?...or even having a heterodoxial ideology in the same context? (I find political fanatics to be a far greater threat in this country than religious fanatics and they tend to be far more self-rightous--especially when I point out their inconsistancies--such as their complaints about Reagan letting the mentally ill loose)

While the U.S. has been far from perfect, we have done a good job as nations go when it comes to pluralism, and I couldn't care less if an Islamic, Buddhist, whatever group wants to preach on campus. We also have the constitution which tells us that by Rule Of Law, religious groups cannot practice the sectarian violence that was so de riguer in Europe--a huge motivational factor in driving people over here.

The good news is that we can be narrow-minded, yet still coexist side by side without killing each other--as the pluralistic U.S. has proven for the last two centuries.

Is your reference to Reagan letting the mentally ill loose a coincidence, or do you make reference to a post I made on The Independent earlier today? I

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2009 at 10:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I live clear across the country but after reading this, I feel compelled to respond to the article and the comments that followed.

I am an atheist. I know a few atheists. I feel pretty comfortable in stating that we atheists couldn't care less what you think or what you do in your homes. Don't care, not one bit.

What we do care about is when religious organizations feel the need to tell us what we should think and what we should believe, how we should live our lives and how others should live theirs.

What we do care about it is their inability to let others live their own lives.

What we see is their fear. Fear that if someone does something contrary to their faith it will somehow diminish the meaning of that faith. Evangelical groups unfortunately feel that their way is the only way, all others are doomed.

The Child Evangelism Fellowship website has a pretty clear statement on it and to ignore and misstate it is puerile and misleading. This is an evangelical group seeking to bolster their numbers by converting very young children through fear and pear pressure. These are classic brainwashing techniques. CEF is only concerned with developing one community, their own.

The best thing parents can do is have their children take part in other after school activities. As in the end of the article, if no one attends, if they have no one who will listen, they will be forced to just go home.

I know other choices in some areas and for some people may be unavailable. Do the best for your children, teach them what you can and trust that being taught tolerance and being gifted with an open mind and the ability to question will be enough to get them through life.

And hey, if you want your children taught your beliefs, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or Jainist, why not do it yourself rather than let someone else. Your children will appreciate the time you spend with them. There really is no need for this group and there never will be.

Oh, and PS, quoting Neitzche doesn't make you right especially when you misrepresent Stalin, Hitler and everyone else you mentioned. Replacing a culture and government with a cult of personality does not make it an atheistic regime. All those despots did was replace one god with another living one, same as Kim Jong il has done in North Korea. And when you imply that Hitler wasn't a christian and completely supported by the Catholic Church, you show just how ignorant you really are about European history.

Whoever is reading this, don't take their word on it, or even mine. Educate yourself and form your own opinion, because that is what makes America great.

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KevinJ (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2009 at 12:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

KevinJ:

In all respect, you might not be writing from a place to call me ignorant about European history...

Can you honestly deny that Communism was an atheist ideology? It calls for the elimination of the exploiting class, it extols violence as a way to social progress, and it calls for using any means necessary to achieve the atheist utopia. Marx was an atheist just as atheism was central to his Marxist doctrine. Atheism became a central component of the Solviet Union's official ideology, it is still the official doctrine of China, and Stalin and Mao enforced athiest policies by systematically closing churches and murdering priests and religious believers. All Communist regimes have been strongly anti-religious suggesting that their atheism is intrinsic rather than incidental to their ideology.

As far as calling Hitler a Christian... really? Hitler's Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Fuhrer's private opinions, shows Hitler to be rabidly anti-religious. He called Christianity one of the great "scourges" of history, and said of the Germans, "Let's be the only people who are immunized against this disease." He promised that "through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity." In fact, he blamed Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution. Hitler's leading advisors- Goebbles, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann - were all atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.

But you still say he supported the Catholic Church, right? Hitler was born into the Catholic Church just as Stalin was born into the Russian Orthodox Church and Mao was raised as a Buddhist. These facts prove nothing, as many people reject their religious upbringing as these men did. How then do we account for Hitler's claim that in carrying out his anti-Semitic program he was an instrument of divine providence? During his ascent to power, he needed the support of the German people - both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans- and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as "I am doing the Lord's work." To claim that this rhetoric makes him a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses.

Like you said, "educate yourself and form your own opinion, because that is what makes America great." Just be careful not to call someone ignorant in the process before you've done all of your homework.

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PST (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2009 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As PST point out, Hitler was not a Christian and to say that Christian=Nazi is a false as saying that atheist=communist. All I can add to PST's points is that there was some fascination on the part of Nazi nabobs with Eastern religions, but again, does being interested in the Bhagvad Gita make one dance the Goose Step?

I think whatever points needed to be made have been made. Clearly, some of us will remain Christians, others atheists, and others will believe an infinate variety of beliefs. All we can do in this life is to realize that no matter how much we preach our beliefs, that many will not be won over so once again I say that we need to be able to agree to disagree, and all of us must learn to have a thick skin, because if we are secure within our beliefs, we won't need to A: have the government pass a law saying it's illegal to preach whatever it is that you believe on public property, and B: pimp children as being so emotionally fragile that they will be messed up if some terrible person tells them of a better way of life.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2009 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

wow, do you put as much into keeping the smut off the registers at the level of our 5-6 year olds who know so much about telling religions apart...Do you stand up and say- the sweet little children of elementary schools should not be reading about graphic sexual acts from a homosexual standpoint because they are too young to understand that view? Probably not.
CEF teaches...hmmm 30 years ago when I attended a class here and there...that I am loved by a creator when I was terrible abused by relatives, and teachers and a few kids. When I couldn't turn to anyone, I was taught that there was someone that loved me so much he paid a price personally for me, not that I deserved anything, but that it was a free gift.
We all do things wrong. I knew as a small child I did things wrong. I had been taught that regardless, I was loved unconditoinally.
So CEF, which teaches Bible spirituality that people can be loved in every circumstance must be pretty bad. The threat of a God who loves you as a sinner (or imperfect person), I would think would be appealing to anyone unless they love the wrong things they do and don't want freedom from them.
Also, your history facts are a little off. The Bible was the only book taught out of even before the "first new england primer". When Evolution came into schools (religion that it is) the Bible became much more a threat.

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Cynth (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2009 at 6:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear "Call Me Crazy" Bill,

I am fully aware that no amount of coercion will keep people from holding irrational beliefs. I am fully cognizant of the fact that some of my beliefs may be irrational. But I like to think that as soon as I recognize them as being irrational I discard them.

I know we can't outlaw religion any more than we can outlaw Astrology or Fortune Telling. One of the definitions of consciousness is essentially where we "choose" to direct our attention and what we glean from that choice.

On the political front that's why radio talk-show echo-chambers are so popular.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to examine their inconsistencies in light of the body of human knowledge. Would you make fun if someone came to you with a scheme to turn base metal into gold? Even more to the point, would you invest in his endeavor?

That's all I'm trying to say.

The chances of you being born into the "one true religion" are no better than anyone in Pakistan being born into the "right" religion. You have to do the work yourself. You have to choose where to direct your does-this-make-sense laser at any and all political or religious "absolutely correct" worldviews.

>Is your reference to Reagan letting the mentally ill loose a coincidence, or do you make reference to a post I made on The Independent earlier today?

Coincidence.

What was it?

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2009 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.independent.com/news/2009/may...

Durango: My May 15, 2:52 PM post on the above link has the reference to Reagan.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2009 at 6:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear "Call Me Crazy" Bill,

From one of the other posts in your HTML point, "This is a lot like other periods in history where we humans have shown our worst side and committed terrible atrocities against other humans...in the name of...whatever."

"Whatever?" Couldn't bring him/herself to say religion?

Now I see why you took offence to my comment about Reagan. Religious-Right Conservatives see Reagan as their White Knight. Naturally you had to defend him. The dots that go unconnected are that he is still not seen as starting the ball rolling that got our society to it's current bankrupt state. It was Reagan who started the "debt doesn't hurt" or more National Debt than all the presidents before him. We've done it pretty much ever since. The Laffer Curve turns out to be laughable. So much for conservatism, at least fiscal. Social conservatism, that's another thing. I think you views help you to have the inside track there.

Once you get that mind-set you feel honor bound to defend it. One of my favorite political jokes is the reason Reagan won is that he was running against Jimmy Carter. If he had been unopposed he would have lost.

One of the things that children learn in Good News type clubs (not just Christian but any other belief in invisible best friends or transcendental protectors) is to make every attempt to defend the indefensible or the illogical.

To the statement about how to instruct children about the homeless, "So think before you open your mouth at the dinner table where the kids can hear you, lest you want to be finding yourself bailing the little darlings out of jail because they've committed an atrocity against a helpless fellow human being asleep in the bushes or walking down Santa Barbara's 'streets of gold'" I'd like to add - define them as the "other" and you're on you way to dehumanizing them and all that follows that characterization.

Bill, if you are a Christian what does that make non-Christians? My answer - "the other" . . . . . With all that entails!

Draw your circle a little bigger. Become one of "us."

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2009 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Durango: In the second paragraph, I don't remember saying that, and in the third paragraph from the end, I have no idea of who you are quoting so I fail to see how quoting others' comments applies to me, but I guess it's like those who say that since the KKK did their deeds in the name of Christ, throwing mud at someone is a good idea because hopefully eventually something will stick.

As for the Reagan reference, you're wrong on *all* counts. I never voted for Reagan, and wouldn't vote for him today. I (if you had bothered to pay attention and not get riled up at the mention of R----n) was merely making reference to the fact that while he may very well have been 100% guilty of creating a terrible situation by letting mentally ill people out on the streets by closing down mental institutions, his successors have had plenty of time to undo this. It's like when I point out the Obama voted for the reauthorization of the Patriot Act and we are still in this war halfway across the world with what appears to be escalating. In short, it appears that the iconized Democrats do a lot of the same things the Repubicans do.

As for you telling me to join the circle a little bigger, we've already made our points about religion and you using the circle metaphor is ironic because this conversation is doing just that: going around in circles. Move on Durango, and take into consideration that you got emotional and completely misread what I said about Reagan--and that I've presented a factual case to refute your accusation against me of being a right winger.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 18, 2009 at 2:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

A couple of things:

In response to this question by SBMOMMY
>>What do you do without faith and hope?

Faith and hope (and morality for that matter) don't require Christianity. There are many happy, honest, and deeply spiritual people who don't subscribe to any religious doctrine. When you look over the span of human history at the countless cults and religions that have existed, you can begin to see a common thread in what they offer: the illusion of certainty. Since the beginning human beings have been plagued by fundamental questions of existence: why are we here, what happens when we die, what is the meaning of life? The fact is, if one is being honest with oneself one cannot really answer these questions, and that is frankly scary for many people, thus they cling to what are ultimately fairy tales. Unfortunately, the inherent uncertainty of life also ends up being empowering for a lot of ugly, cynical narcissists and hedonists, who feel as though it grants them a free pass to live amorally. Which brings me to my point:

THERE IS A MIDDLE GROUND. People can be moral, faithful, and hopeful without elaborate magical stories and dire consequences held over their heads. It's called being in touch with your humanity, recognizing that love is more productive than hate, dialogue is more productive than violence, and that to be treated well one must treat others well. THE GOLDEN RULE. Live to love and love to live, in other words. You don't need to be a pot smoking hippie to understand and practice that. And the ironic thing is, that is basically what most religions boil down to anyway, when you cut through all the dogma and magic sky men.

The finger that points to the moon is not the moon!

PST:
As far as atheism being intrinsically tied to communism, you are more or less correct. But that's because, as someone else said, authoritarian communist regimes necessitate a "blank canvas" on which to impose personality cults and/or strong and very embellished national myths, in place of religion, as a method of control.

On a somewhat related note, what is interesting to me is that, despite the US being a fairly Christian nation (and the most powerful country in the world), "godless socialist" countries in Europe, particularly the Dutch and the Scandinavian nations, rate far higher than the US on life expectancy and overall quality of life. Kinda begs the question "what would Jesus do?" I almost want to say I wish Christians would actually ask that question of themselves more, but it's clear that people will always project whatever they want into the sky and call it truth. Oh well.

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engine (anonymous profile)
May 20, 2009 at 12:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

And by the way, "atheism" is a BROAD word. All it means is the absence of a belief in god/gods. That doesn't mean an absence of morals or guiding principles (or the uniformity of those principles). Besides, some people regard themselves as agnostics (but are lumped in with atheists anyway), and still others, such as myself, don't really want to be pigeonholed by labels (but are lumped in with atheists anyway).

Is the North Korean personality cult atheistic or theistic? Technically I think you could make the argument for both. Soviet Russia under Stalin wasn't entirely different. Trying to lump all "atheists" together is just a semantic game/rhetorical ploy that is dumb at best and disingenuous at worst. It is about as useful as trying to lump people who are neither Democrat nor Republican together under one ideology. It's hardly so black and white. Remember that labels are often very blunt tools.

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engine (anonymous profile)
May 20, 2009 at 1:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Couple more things on the topic of religion:

The debate over which religion is the true religion is like a McDonalds rep debating a Burger King rep over which chain makes the true hamburger. They'll define their own parameters and say "the Big Mac is the true hamburger because we use special sauce" and "the Whopper is the true hamburger because it's flame broiled". Sound familiar? "Christianity is the true way because the Bible says so, and the Bible is true because god (of the Bible) says it is his word." Brilliant example of circular reasoning. Besides, many of the stories and themes of modern religious texts are lifted from cults and religions that predate them, just as with the ingredients and methods that go into making Big Macs and Whoppers were lifted.

The religious sometimes like to bring up whatever transcendental experiences they may have had as anecdotal evidence. "But Jesus talked to me or showed me something or other". The problem with this is not that that people have such experiences are necessarily crazy, but that transcendental or mystical experiences are not unique to any one religion. People from all religions have them, and simply project whatever religious template they've subscribed to onto them. People without religion have them too, they can be achieved through deep meditation, intense yoga, hallucinogens, near death experiences, etc. It is a human phenomenon.

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engine (anonymous profile)
May 20, 2009 at 1:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This is very scary stuff. It is the foundation for hate crimes and war.
My child is a CSS graduate and had a very similar experience to Akomgie. Found memories of the school but was ostracized by the Westmont Christians.
I think CSS needs to combat this behavior with counseling on tolerance. What happen to the liberal and tolerant Protestant California I was brought up in?
To add insult to injury we were at CSS when the Westmont faculty housing was first built, they added 20 kids to the school with woefully inadequate funding to the school.

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loneranger (anonymous profile)
May 21, 2009 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

An enlightening and very interesting read on education and Christianity (and much more) is Susan Jacoby's The Age of American Unreason.

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DS (anonymous profile)
May 22, 2009 at 9:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow! Hit a nerve did we?

BTW - 2/3 of the citizen of the world are NOT Christians.

Judging by the spelling and grammar in the above posts, I think schools might be better served to focus on education, and leave religion to churches.

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Gandalf47 (anonymous profile)
May 22, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Judging by the spelling and grammar in the above posts, I think schools might be better served to focus on education, and leave religion to churches."

Coincidentally, it appears that such grammatical sins are less apt to occur among those who graduate from private (in many cases religious) schools. Funny how those backward Christian schools seem to turn out so many well-educated people and how the schoolyard shootings we hear about seem to be happening at public schools.

Makes one think, doesn't it?

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 22, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear Call-Me-Crazy-Bill,

Didn't take you too long to jump in on the Ad Hominem attack, did it? It has been my experience these types of attacks are what happens when someone seems to be loosing the Ad Hoc argument.

If your argument is weak why not throw a little mud at your opposite number?

Sometimes Cogito Ergo Sum quickly deteriorates into, "Cogito ergo dim sum" - meaning your thinking gets as convoluted as Chinese noodles.

>. . . . . Christian schools seem to turn out so many well-educated people

Might have something to do with allocation of funds? The "Noble Experiment" was to educate all the citizens not educate and indoctrinate with, "separate but equal" schools paid for by the religious minded.

Maybe you should take a new handle? Something like, "Halle Selassie, Defender of the Faith, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah?" Actually you could just stop at Defender of the Faith.

>. . . . . that I've presented a factual case to refute your accusation against me of being a right winger.

Sorry to doubt your humanistic creds! Does this mean that you may just agree with my contention that the term Christian Conservative is an oxymoron.

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 25, 2009 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Durango: First of all, it isn't "loosing" it is "losing". This is a common mistake many people make.

I won't waste my time dealing with your emotional screed and the personal stuff and conjecture you bring up. You obviously are getting increasingy angry and such behavior is par for the course. The only point you bring up worth addressing is the allocation of funds to which I'd posit that from what I've read, private schools don't blow as much money on administration costs.

If memory serves me correctly, Catholic schools spend less per pupil than public schools, and (it was about fifteen years ago that I read this) the numbers presented were $4600 for public vs. 4000 for Catholic schools)

The words you write say more about you than they do about me.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 25, 2009 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

>First of all, it isn't "loosing" it is "losing". This is a common mistake many people make.

Forgive me for making a common mistake. I guess that just makes me one of the common people. Most average people think they are above average.

Your memory probably does serve you correctly. Anyway I won't challenge it. My point is that the ability to coerce tithing makes for a big pot of money to indoctrinate the young to whatever belief system their parents hold.

If memory serves me correctly, the Morman chruch brings in between five and six million a day in tithes. With that amount of money they have a lot of influence. They are currently under review by PBS for too much religious programming on their current PBS affiliate. The Moonies bring in a lot of money. Should their Moonie News after-the-bell program be before or after the CEF Good News Club after school program?

Don't bother to reply. I am taking your advice to not continue to waste each-other's time.

Actually I'm taking the advice of one of my friends when he said, "You can't argue with, or even have a discussion with, anyone whose mind is alread made up."

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Durango (anonymous profile)
May 27, 2009 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8hvSD5nT...

Durango: If you have a gripe with the Mormon church or whatever, direct it at them. Whatever you're so upset about, deal with it and quit fixating on me because *I* didn't do it to you, and yes, I absolutely agree with you that organized religion is a huge money making scam, so direct your frustration at them, not at me.

I figure if you're going to try to impress everyone with a few basic terms in Latin, then at least learn how to spell in the primary language of this blog. Yes, I think, therefore I am, and that was said a long time ago.
The link at the top of this post is my musical message to you. It's by the Beatles. Please listen to the lyrics. It has a cool bass line, you can dance to it, and the lyrics describe my feelings when they say "I'm really sorry about your raging head".

For being such an enlightened post-modern world people seem to be pretty worked up, don't they?

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 27, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The reason the founding fathers wanted religion out of the schools is because they wanted to keep ignorance away.

Europe was controlled by religion. Ignorance creates immoral behavior.

Religion will always exist because people are afraid of death.

People would rather live their life in a fantasy that they will be "re-born" or be "re-incarnated" than live a life that will eventually, really die. Truth is too scary to accept. So ease their suffering with religion. It works for most.

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Georgy (anonymous profile)
May 27, 2009 at 5:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The reason the founding fathers wanted religion out of the schools is because they wanted to keep ignorance away."

Would this also apply to North Korea since the communist takeover?..or Cambodia under Pol Pot? Were the Khmer Rouge thugs who torture-murdered millions Christians?...For that matter, were Hitler or Stalin Christians? How far away is the U.S. from such a nightmare

To those who mock (in most cases, not having the guts to sign their real names) and spew their version of progressivness: For the record, I'm not a Republican, (never have voted for one for president) and as stated earlier, I support Durango's gripe about organized religion. Lumping all who believe in God in with money-grubbing televangalists or with George Bush/The Republican Bogeyman du jour is no different from saying that all members of a given ethnic groups fall into the same negative stereotype. So much for me being part of the Religious Right.

The May 16th 6:47 post by Cynth needs to be addressed--specifically, the last paragraph. I seem to remember reading books that confirm Cynth's comments.

John Lennon was right about Christianity when he said "it will go", and you can rest easy, because it's all but gone now.

Those who rant and rave and pimp their kids (Michael Newdow to wit) and complain about the Bible should spend less time focusing on what they believe to be silly stupid God-fearing people and ask themselves why their secular society isn't working. Road rage, gangs, pissed off/rude people, housing prices that have made it all but impossible for the working class to survive, schoolyard shootings, homelessness, broken homes (with broken-hearted kids coming out of those homes) meth use, guys using the mothers of their children (who they won't marry because that would involve committment) as punching bags, and on and on. If you want to improve your world, then stop the adolescent name calling: Grow up and quit blaming this all on those of us who believe in God; you've been in charge of this world for the last few decades, you know perfectly well you are in the majority, and at *some* point you are going to have to start putting the blame somewhere else instead of scapegoating Christians if you are truly interested in making your world a better place.

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billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 27, 2009 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If and when I become a parent, I hope I am just like Katherine Stewart. She's my new role-model for motherhood. Thank you so much for this well-researched, insightful and fearlessly written article. I am inspired.

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LV (anonymous profile)
May 28, 2009 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Discussion with Katherine Stewart and her husband Matthew Stewart will be hosted by the Humanist Society of Santa Barbara, 2:30pm Saturday, July 18th, in the Patio Room at Vista del Monte, 3775 Modoc Road, SB. For event details phone 805-259-6432 or click on web page http://www.independent.com/events/2009/j...

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green_helmet (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2009 at 2:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why did we fight in World War Two? To stop a narrow ideology that justified sending people to their death in the most grusome way. Just ask our own Native Americans what a one sided, one way foreign religion did to them. At least we are not burning people alive for believing the world is round and not flat. If one privately believes that a woman literally came from a rib (with no BBQ sauce), then it's just another madrassa school approach to ideological religous dogma. "My way or the highway!" Where have your heard that before?!! The universe is a big tent folks.

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freethought (anonymous profile)
July 22, 2009 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

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