A new high-tech electric meter that promises to help California households reduce energy consumption by as much as 12 percent and to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by more than 350,000 tons a year got relentlessly bashed, thrashed, and trashed by the outspokenly hostile and suspicious crowd that jammed the county supervisors’ chambers for a marathon hearing Tuesday afternoon. Despite the eco-friendly origins of the so-called “smart meters,” not one environmental activist showed to voice support. It was truly the sound of one hand slapping as 45 speakers—representing a fusion of anti-Big Government forces with the anti-Big Corporation crowd—signed up to vilify the new device that was approved by the California Public Utility Commission (CPUC) in 2008 and that will be installed throughout Santa Barbara homes next February.
The speakers blasted the new meters—which allow utility managers and consumers to track energy use on an hourly basis—as an invasion of privacy, an assault on constitutional protections, and the embodiment of “Big Brother” predicted by writer George Orwell in his dystopian police state fantasy 1984. But mostly, the speakers expressed profound—and often anguished—concern about the health risks associated with the low-level radio waves that the meters transmit throughout the course of a day. Many speakers noted that the World Health Organization had placed smart meters on its official list of potential carcinogens in just the past month. (Santa Barbara County Health Director Takashi Michael Wada countered that coffee is also on the same list.) Others argued that such radiation can play havoc with the finely tuned electronics of pacemakers, cause migraines, induce insomnia, and otherwise afflict those prone to electronic sensitivities.
Wada also noted that, according to recent scientific assessments, the radiation levels associated with the new meters falls well within the Federal Communications Commission guidelines, and considerably less than the amount given off by cell phones. That hardly assuaged anyone, as one speaker noted, “Look how long the tobacco industry told us that tobacco was safe.” Another shrugged off the cell phone comparison, countering, “If I want to choose to use a cell phone, it’s my choice. I can’t choose to turn off my smart meter.” Many were upset as much by the number of radiation sources as by the quantity. John Wright, a dentist for 57 years, said there was a good reason why dental patients wear lead aprons when getting X rays, “and it’s not just to keep us warm.” A few suggested disapprovingly that the new meter technology originated with the United Nations rather than any state or federal mandate. They expressed concern that hackers could break past any protective firewall to delve into personal information. Several complained how the new meters had already been installed, without consent or even consultation.
The supervisors were urged to join and declare a moratorium, as several local governments throughout California have already done, that would prohibit utility companies from installing the new meters until the health concerns could be resolved. But the supervisors were informed by their county counsel that such an action would exceed the board’s legal authority. Instead, the supervisors voted unanimously to send a letter to the CPUC urging the state board to require opt-out options for those consumers troubled by the new technology. Currently, PG&E has proposed such a provision, though the company would charge consumers a $270 opt-out fee, coupled with a monthly surcharge of $14. To date, SCE has no proposal in the works to allow customers to opt out at any cost.
Giving rise to the new meters initially was growing concern that California’s energy grid was experiencing significant delivery shortages during peak energy use hours. By encouraging customers to time their heavy appliance use during nonpeak hours, state energy planners reckoned, such gridlock could be averted. Adding political oomph to the issue was growing concern about climate change that climaxed with Al Gore’s release of An Inconvenient Truth in 2006. To make this happen, the utility companies proposed the installation of new meters that allowed customers and corporate functionaries to track energy consumption with pinpoint precision. That new data would give customers the awareness to change; new pricing rates would inflict the economic pain needed to make that change happen.
Energy-conscious environmental groups, like the Community Environmental Council, have embraced the new meters, arguing they’re a necessary new infrastructure to help advance a host of alternative technologies. On Tuesday, PG&E’s Del Evans described rapturously how the new meters would allow customers to program their dishwashers to go at two in the morning, when demand was low. For this, he was greeted with boos and hisses. Several speakers objected that the new meters would soon dictate when they could—and could not—use their appliances. Several referenced friends from Europe who reported they’d had their washing machines turned off, mid-use, thanks to smart metering.
Although the supervisors voted unanimously, Supervisors Doreen Farr and Steve Lavagnino led the charge. Farr peppered the utility company officials with skeptical questions. Lavagnino expressed amazement that the opt-out provisions were either nonexistent or price prohibitive. He voiced doubt that the program was even necessary. He recounted how his 82-year-old mother-in-law had just moved in with his family and not a second passes without her turning off “every single light in the house.”



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I wanted to inform the writer of this article that the following statement is false, "Despite the eco-friendly origins of the so-called “smart meters,”. According to the "smart" meter department at Con Edison in New York, "smart" meters were invented between 20 and 30 years ago in order to get rid of meter readers. Utility companies did not care about being "green" then or now.
People are getting sick across the country from exposure to the radiation from water, electric and gas transmitting AMR (automatic reading) "smart" meters because these meters transmit intolerable levels of pulsed microwave radiation into homes and throughout neighborhoods thousands of times a day, 24/7.
At this point the utility companies are lying when they say that "smart" meters are safe. They know people are getting sick but they have so much money invested in this program that they are willing to sacrifice the health of their customers to push this through.
This is a tremendous health and environmental disaster that needs to be stopped.
bluplanet (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 7:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
SMART METERS LINKED TO CANCER.
Utility Companies based previous safety claims on World Health Organization (WHO).
But May 31 2011, WHO says Wireless Smart Meter radiation is linked to CANCER (possible human carcinogen – same as Lead, DDT, etc), and that means it also likely damages bodies & brains (including children’s) in many additional ways sooner than cancer.
1. WIRELESS SMART METERS – 100 TIMES MORE RADIATION THAN CELL PHONES.
Video Interview: Nuclear Scientist, Daniel Hirsch, (5 minutes).
http://stopsmartmeters.org/2011/04/20...
2. WIRELESS SMART METERS – CANCER, NERVOUS SYSTEM DAMAGE, ADVERSE REPRODUCTION AFFECTS.
Video Interview: Dr. Carpenter, New York Public Health Department, Dean of Public Health, (2 minutes).
http://emfsafetynetwork.org/?p=3946
3. THE KAROLINSKA INSTITUTE IN STOCKHOLM (the University that gives the Nobel Prizes) ISSUES GLOBAL HEALTH WARNING AGAINST WIRELESS SMART METERS.
2-page Press Release:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48148346/Ka...
RobertWilliams (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 7:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
SOME TRUTHS ABOUT WIRELESS SMART METERS.
1. The utility information generated by Wireless smart meters is NOT real-time and it is NOT formatted for customer use so it does NOT assist customers to use less energy or lower their utility bills. The information only assists the Utility Company to bill customers and shut off customer power remotely.
2. In countries where Wireless smart meters are being installed, energy use is NOT decreasing, customer UTILITY BILLS ARE INCREASING, there are problems with SECURITY, HACKING, ELECTRICAL FIRES & ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE.
The only "Green" in this program is the $$$ and wealth transferred from customers to the Utility Company.
Costs are already overrunning significantly and routinely laid onto the backs of customers. The meters cost hundreds of dollars each and ongoing utility rates are consistently increasing where Smart meters have been installed as Utility companies sing their praises.
Those doing actual cost-benefit analysis in lieu of blindly accepting the rhetoric of Utility companies are consistently rejecting Wireless smart meter programs.
3. The Utility companies are salivating over eliminating the jobs of the full-time-with-benefit meter reader employees and replacing them with phone operators in India and the Philippines who read scripts to customers over the phone for $4 per day with-NO-Benefits. And the savings are NOT passed on to customers.
4. Wireless smart meters transmit radiation 360 degrees approximately 23,000 times per day, every day, 24/7, at the rate of about one radiation transmission every four seconds or 15 per minute, NOT for only 45 seconds per day as Utility companies falsely advertise. (You can confirm this yourself by purchasing an emf analyzer for between $100 and $500 depending on the features and detail that you choose to monitor.)
Radiation transmissions from Wireless smart meters have the strength to travel well over a mile (and the radiation transmissions are most damaging at closer proximities) so it is also important to keep them off your neighbor’s homes.
5. Wireless smart meters are NOT mandated by the US Federal Energy Program, as California’s PG$E pretends.
6. 42 Cities & Counties in California have taken positions AGAINST Wireless smart meters and 13 have passed Ordinances prohibiting Wireless meter installation.
7. Every appliance has or will have its own electronic signature, so yes, Wireless smart meters will give your exact activity information to the utility company and the government will have access to every move you make in your home. Existing analog meters only provide total usage and therefore protect your privacy.
High-tech home robbers (and HIGH-TECH CHILD MOLESTERS) will also hack this information and know exactly our habits and when we are not home (and WHEN OUR CHILDREN ARE HOME).
RobertWilliams (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Since smart meters will be able to monitor peak hours, I bet PG&E will eventually charge more during those peak hours.
Georgy (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
... and the science-challenged, rumor-driven, Anti-Smart Meter Folks have arrived.
Again.
http://www.independent.com/polls/2011...
binky (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Nothing quite as depressing as listening to the scientifically-ignorant testify about science-related issues. Reminds me of the mindless opposition to cellphone service in montecito.
JohnLocke (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
RF is everywhere. I am willing to bet that many of those against smart meters also spend hours inanely yak-yak-yakking on their cellphones (a known & true source of HRF emission) while driving a car (a known source of distraction that causes a lot of accidents on raodways) some fatal.
Not saying smart meters are perfect, just playing Captain Obvious & pointing out the, well, obvious :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No doubt about it, Georgy.
Considering that hourly pricing rates for electricity will now be possible with these "smart meters", the total billing will likely go up for most electricity account holders. Not everyone will be able to shift demand to night-time consumption of electricity or track their electric usage closely.
The real smoke to this smart meter fire is about the net increase in total billings and redistribution of wealth from lowly residential ratepayers to the corporate electric overlords, but the tinfoil hat issues and imagined excessive electromagnetic radiation are a big phat distraction.
One might imagine that distraction to benefit corporations at the expense of the public is entirely why this has become a Tea Party signature issue in California, because in the end the Tea Partiers may think they are grassroots sincere but they are manipulated to maintain corporate welfare like this.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/200...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-ha...
John_Adams (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 11:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Some facts to remember in this hullabaloo:
- SCE is our local electricity provider, not PG&E
- rates are set by the Public Utilities Commission every three years, not by SCE
- accuracy in energy usage allows for a fuller disclosure and assignment of costs and benefits.
- RobertWilliams wins the Wild-Eyed-Fear-Monger Badge for this gem: "High-tech home robbers (and HIGH-TECH CHILD MOLESTERS) will also hack this information and know exactly our habits and when we are not home (and WHEN OUR CHILDREN ARE HOME)." Sweet!
binky (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Binky, check out the song video on youtube by Blur, it's called "We've got a file on you!" for some laughs.
Man, I've thought some screwy stuff in my time, but RW takes the cake & eats it! A well deserved badge indeed :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 2:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One night I went to bed and all was normal, the next time I got up I had a smart meter attached to me house. That's all I know.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Smart meters? Sign me up! RF interference? If the meter's RF signal interfered with cell phones, WiFi, garage door openers etc., wouldn't those industries be way ahead of this and launch their own anti-smart meter campaigns? Seems to me they would.
PG&E, the Goleta Water District and SoCal Gas all send meter readers (and their vehicles) into my neighborhood each month. Am I the only one who sees a wasteful and costly duplicity of service here?
Verizon doesn't send an employee to my home to record my telephone usage, it's transmitted over the wire AND by microwave. Seems to work fine.
Relax and put away your tin foil hats—no big conspiracy here. Smart meters are not a threat to our community, just 21st century technology put to good use.
mkoto (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 3:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And by "Eco-Friendly Energy Meters" they mean throwing out over 25 million perfectly good and functioning meter now installed.
These are the MYTHICAL GREEN JOBS. Take out perfectly good AND PAID FOR meters. Use temporary labor to install new meters and take the old meters to the scrap heap. Then fire the employees that used to read the meters, charge the customer more for PEAK HOUR usage, and make the customer pay for the temporary green jobs and the new very expensive (& I would guess fragile) meter.
For some reason the eco-fascists see this as some kind of panacea and discard very valid health concerns while they sue those same companies for previous health problems by the SAME UTILITY companies.
Eco-warriors truly do believe that 1+1+Potato, damn history, damn reality, damn the facts, damn even their own Gia rhetoric---THIS IS GREEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!!!
jukin (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RW posted the exact same "proof" when the Indy wrote the last article about the meters. Some of it is utter junk and unrelated.
Binky - your provider might not be PG&E, but ours is up here in the SY Valley.
We came home the other day and there is a smart meter on our house now. I don't know if it is good or bad, but it is there and that's a fact. I did notice my kitchen lights that weren't working that well and I was thinking I would have to take apart are suddenly working great????
cycleboy (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 7:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OK, what is up with the "go with the Science" ridiculing of people who have actually looked at the science which is unanimously opposed to use of a cancer causing agent? Republican brainwashing and attitude gridlock demonstrated for all of us to see and you know who you are!
contactjohn (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And the cell phone issue? Yes they do cause cancer... and what part of that do you not get?
contactjohn (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 10:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This ignorance by a professional is sad:
:: "Many were upset as much by the number of radiation sources as by the quantity. John Wright, a dentist for 57 years, said there was a good reason why dental patients wear lead aprons when getting X rays, “and it’s not just to keep us warm.”
John Wright needs to go back to school or do an online search; he will find a difference between Radio frequencies and X-rays.
"contactjohn" has the Rothchilds and the Trilateral Commission both causing the world's problems whilst keeping the solutions from us all (take a look at his Comment history). The National Cancer Institute begs to differ with the cell phone/cancer connection:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fa...
binky (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 10:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry Binky,
I don't have faith in the Public Utilities Commission. Hope your faith is correct. Big utility companies like PG&E have a way of influencing their so-called regulations. Nuclear energy is supposed to be regulated by the Nuclear Regulatory Agency (NRC), and yet they bend over backwards to serve industry and supress health and safety issues.
The real issue here is how smart meters will be used to increase your monthly electric bill so energy companies can increase their profits.
Georgy (anonymous profile)
July 6, 2011 at 11:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Smart meters are a major public menace - they can ruin your health, cause death, and make your home unlivable. Residents should make every effort - even marching in the streets to protest and demand their removal. Prevail upon the governor to issue an Executive Order to stop this flawed, dangerous program and provide relief to tens of thousands who are suffering from these meters. www.smartmeterdangers.org for the science behind the harm. Beware - the utilities, who know full well these meters are harming people and do not care, are hiring public relations shills to deny the harm and manipulate the public on comment boards like this. SCE, PGE, SDGE have received tens of millions of dollars from Obama's Recovery Act funds, channeled through US Dept of Energy. The grants require completion of this deadly project or they'll have to pay back the money. It will take more than an opt-out, though this is a very good start. These dangerous meters MUST all be removed. Many, many thanks to all the fine citizens who showed up at that meeting to tell their stories and insist on getting help. If you don't have a smart meter yet, chain up your old analog meters, fence them off, and flat out refuse to allow installation. Beware, they'll do it while you are gone, unless you make it impossible. Some are placing metal bars, welded, over their old meters. Eventually they'll be outlawed, so hold out as long as you can.
No2SmartMeters (anonymous profile)
July 7, 2011 at 5:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So now it's Obama's fault? Why not just do what everyone else has done for years: BLAME IT ON BUSH! :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 7, 2011 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't know what everyone's complaining about. The Smart Meter installed a few weeks ago on our house is actually improving our health. I notice now that my family members have a certain glow about them I've never seen before, in fact, they even glow in the dark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oDAkm...
billclausen (anonymous profile)
July 7, 2011 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
seems crazy to worry about low-level radio waves on electric meters when we are bombarded at every turn by wireless signals (radio and otherwise) in absolutely everything. Car keyless entry, home security systems, cell phones, wireless internet......the list goes on and on.
lovechop (anonymous profile)
July 8, 2011 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Bill, I can see you & your loved 1's a mile away in the dark even! :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 8, 2011 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
A packed county boardroom. Packed full of idiots!
Riceman (anonymous profile)
July 8, 2011 at 4:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No2SmartMeters is a blithering idiot. This whole subject is about 3% facts and the rest is a bunch of dumbo's going on about nothing.
Riceman (anonymous profile)
July 8, 2011 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The problem is the Tea Party phobic to change extremists like council member Michael Self. You can waste an hour of your life by watching here http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/14279085
What we're dealing with is change and what these stuck old timer tea party types don't get is change. They'd be fighting automobile air pollution controls and mileage standards if it was there time in the limelight 35 years ago. Please kids throw these ignorant rumor milling tea party types out, even if it's your mama, papa, grandma and grandpa.
DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
July 9, 2011 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"People are reporting symptoms near cell towers and in
proximity to other RFR-generating sources including consumer products such as wireless computer routers and Wi-Fi systems that appear to be classic ‘‘microwave sickness syndrome,’’ also known as ‘‘radiofrequency radiation sickness.’’ First identified in the 1950s by Soviet medical researchers, symptoms included headache, fatigue, ocular dysfunction, dizziness, and sleep disorders. In Soviet medicine, clinical manifestations include dermographism, tumors, blood changes, reproductive and cardiovascular abnormalities, depression,irritability, and memory impairment, among others.
The Soviet researchers noted that the syndrome is reversible
in early stages but is considered LETHAL over time" (Tolgskaya, M.S., and Gordon, A.V. 1973. Pathological effects of radio waves. Soviet Science Consultants Bureau, New York. pp. 133–137.)
GiveMeLiberty (anonymous profile)
July 9, 2011 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Electromagnetic radiation (EMR) can be divided into ionizing radiation (γ-ray, X-ray) and non-ionizing radiation (laser, microwave, radiation frequency),in which high power microwave (HPM)and electromagnetic pulse (EMP) belong to non-ionizing radiation. HPM and EMP occurred not only in peace time (radar, cell phone, TV-pad, et al), but also in war time, e.g. nuclear explosion, HPM weapon, EMP weapon, bomb explosion, et al. The experimental study and epidemiological survey have confirmed that
HPM and EMP could induce human injury and health risks, even FATAL effects.
Experimental animal investigation indicated that main target organs included brain—particular hippocampus (nerve-behavior abnormality), endocrine glands, heart —particularly transmission fiber (heart dysfunction, blocking), gonad — test, ovary (dysgenesis, testosterone descent), eye— (lens opacity), lymphatic tissue (immune function descent), hemopoietic tissue (hemopoietic function descent), in which the brain was one of the most sensitive.
The injury effects of EMP and HPM were divided into 4 phases: immediate, early phase (within 1 week), middle phase (2-4 weeks), late phase (>4 weeks, e.g., lens opacity, encephalatrophy, tumor, dysgenesis, hereditation). After high intensity EMP and HPM irradiation, fatal effects also occurred. The main lethal causes were infection, hemorrhage, and emaciation— dyscrasia. We found the sensitivity of injury and LETHAL effects."
Dewen Wang, Hua Deng, Xiaozhe Cao, Meilan Zhao, Ruiyun Peng, Sha Zhang, Shuiming Wang, Haoyu Chen, Hua Jin, Detian Zhang, Wenhua Hu, Bo Dong Institute of Radiation Medicine,Academy of Military Medical Sciences No.27, Taiping Road, Beijing, 100850, P.R.China Tel: 86-010-66931336. Fax: 86-010-68214653. E-mail:wangdewen1938@yahoo.com.cn
GiveMeLiberty (anonymous profile)
July 9, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah but GiveMeLiberty you can have all those symptoms from following around tea party council member Michael Selfs' puttering and sputtering Mousie tail pipe. Her newer Arnold is pretty bad too. Self names her cars, you know just like dolls when she was a little immature girl. But I agree with you in that we are all clearly suffering from somthing, some more so than others.
DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
July 10, 2011 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
@GiveMeLiberty
Why is it you chose to cut/paste a snippet out of a research paper without supplying any context of your own? That's like trying to explain a Harry Potter novel by posting a few pages from the book - with no comments from yourself!
Well, I found the paper in its entirety here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26216168/El...
Guess what? You failed to tell us the researchers were exposing their test tissue samples to an electromagnetic field of 60 KV/m! Kindly tell us if you think that's a fair comparison to a cell phone or smartmeter.
EastBeach (anonymous profile)
July 10, 2011 at 7:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sounds like a good time to start a new business in installing RF shield material...
http://www.ecofoil.com/All-Products/R...
sdpaia (anonymous profile)
July 10, 2011 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Can't have a scientific discussaion w/out a visit from DonMcD's hate campaign. Sounds just as bad as the Tea party itself! Oops, wait, it's a 1 man Tea Party. Don, really, give it a rest, your hate rhetorisc is starting to sound as bad as the Tea Party itself :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 11, 2011 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes. No scientist here. All I know is what they tell me. And speaking what what they tell me the science gal council member Michael Self expects a bureaucratic government conspiracy about just about any new technology. Smart Meters, CFLs, Windmills, General Plans and probably newer cars. If she was born a few decades earlier she'd probably still be riding in a horse and buggy. Very regressive. Oh she doesn't care for buses either. She thinks buses contain dazed and confused Dead Heads.
DonMcDermott (anonymous profile)
July 11, 2011 at 10:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HAHAHAHA! Don, you cracked me up w/ the buses comment! Actually, if it's the Green Turtle/Tortoise, she's 100% correct! :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
July 12, 2011 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There are many kinds of modern "enhanced" electric meters. As far as I know, the meters that are proposed to be installed soon, are not "smart" meters (allowing real-time measurements) but simply have a radio chip that allows remote reading: I.e. the meter reader still comes around once a month, but he can read the device from the sidewalk with a hand-held radio scanner instead of having to walk up the driveway with binoculars in hand.
Similar meters are also used for water meter reading in many areas.
The amount of radio waves emitted is far less than what you get from the cell phone or the WiFi devices that are INSIDE your house.
It is disappointing that the Independent focuses on stirring up fear, uncertainty and doubt instead of giving us FACTS about the specific devices that are coming.
ljp93105 (anonymous profile)
July 15, 2011 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I have to question the pro-establishment folks here who claim these devices are perfectly safe, or at least more safe than a cell phone.
Why are they causing interference with baby monitors, household alarms, tv satellites, motion detectors and other household gadgets?
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-storie...
I only make maybe 1 call or so on my cell phone each day on average, but these things on are 24/7.
Here's another article detailing what they believe to be the problems with these devices:
http://endthelie.com/?p=15416
loonpt (anonymous profile)
July 15, 2011 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)